Evidence of meeting #65 for Veterans Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was study.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Melissa McDiarmid  Medical Director, Depleted Uranium Program, Toxic Embedded Fragment Surveillance Center, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs
Pierre Morisset  Chairman of the Committee, Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health
Jean-Rodrigue Paré  Committee Researcher
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Cynara Corbin

9:40 a.m.

Medical Director, Depleted Uranium Program, Toxic Embedded Fragment Surveillance Center, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs

Dr. Melissa McDiarmid

Whistling Dixie. I didn't know you all knew about Dixie.

I think it's complicated. The suffering of an individual patient is case by case. All I can tell you is that we've seen it here too.

As I said, depleted uranium is, I think, lower on the list of our current veterans' concerns than it was 20 years ago. Has it been completely eliminated? I don't know; not necessarily. There are many, many issues in play here.

I don't want to burn up your time, sir, so to go back to your first question, there has not been an autopsy study, per se, of veterans. There have been autopsy studies in the old DOE, Department of Energy workers who were involved in the Manhattan project, for example, from 50 or 60 years ago.

In fact, a lot of those data did inform our very early work here. It really helped the researchers and the clinicians to put certain concerns at bay.

To tell you the truth, our energy workers were exposed to more highly dangerous concentrations of uranium and other radiation-related products than it appears, happily, our veterans were.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Thank you very much, Dr. McDiarmid.

On behalf of the committee, thank you very much. We hope you enjoy the rest of your day. We greatly appreciate your testimony today. Thank you so much.

9:40 a.m.

Medical Director, Depleted Uranium Program, Toxic Embedded Fragment Surveillance Center, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs

Dr. Melissa McDiarmid

Thank you, all.

9:40 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Committee, we'll just suspend for a couple of minutes while we wait for our next witness.

9:45 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Hi, folks.

Before we start with Pierre Morisset, the chairman of the scientific advisory committee, I wish to introduce Mr. Joel Watson of Heenan Blaikie, if he would like to stand.

Last night Mr. Watson and a group held a tremendous reception in room 216-N, with the private sector, assisting our veterans transitioning into the private sector. I must say that for all of who were there it was very positive. To Mr. O'Toole and the couple of other MPs who helped organize that, thank you. It was a great reception.

It's a turning point, I believe, in the cooperation between the government, and also with the private sector, and groups such as yours, sir, getting involved to ensure that our veterans can transition comfortably into a new line of work when they leave.

Thank you very much, sir. We greatly appreciate what you did last night. We wish you continued success.

9:45 a.m.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear!

9:45 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Dr. Morisset, please go ahead.

Welcome back to the committee, sir.

March 26th, 2013 / 9:45 a.m.

Dr. Pierre Morisset Chairman of the Committee, Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

I was informed by Madame Corbin that I could make some introductory remarks. I will read them to keep within the time limits.

Although not part of my introductory remarks, I have four recommendations that I would like to make to your committee. These are not recommendations that we arrived at during our committee work, but are recommendations that have been arrived at on the basis of testimony that I have heard.

I also have a simple request of a more personal nature. I am prepared to introduce these elements any time during the proceedings, at your discretion.

My first comment relates to the charge, which was essentially to conduct a thorough review of the scientific literature on DU, depleted uranium, with a view to assessing the likelihood of Canadian soldiers being at risk of developing adverse health effects that could be attributed to DU. Somehow there seems to have been an expectation from certain veterans that we should have looked at their individual medical records. I may be wrong here, but that view appears to be shared by at least one member of your committee, who said, “Yet we have a report that wouldn't look at their records, that came up with a conclusion based on a paper review.”

If the intention had been to conduct a clinical review of individual cases, its mandate as well as its composition would have had to be structured very differently. Our overall objective was to produce a report that was accurate, complete, clear, and coherent. We feel that we have achieved these objectives, as do our reviewers and other scientists who have read the report.

We also wish it to be useful. After all, this is the only comprehensive scientific review on depleted uranium that addresses the Canadian military context.

Our findings are the result of our best interpretation of existing scientific data. We do not claim in any way that they are absolute. Science is constantly evolving, and new studies will no doubt shed new light on the subject.

That dissenting views exist should not come as a surprise. It is observed in scientific, legal, and yes, even political milieux. It is all the more understandable with respect to the role that radiation plays in causing cancer since these mechanisms are not fully understood at the moment, but at the end of the day, regardless of the context, the majority opinion prevails.

The testimony of some veterans indicates that we did not take into account certain important studies, including the United Nations reports on Bosnia and recent studies conducted in France. On the contrary, we did take them into account and they are in the report. However, it would seem that we did not highlight them sufficiently and, in that respect, we would like to.

It has been suggested that our committee had made up its mind from the outset and had then proceeded to cherry-pick its way through the literature in search of studies supporting our conclusions. Let me, as chairman of our committee, assure you that this is in no way the case.

It has also been suggested that the reviewing process itself was flawed on account of the reviewers not having been presented the final version of the report. On this, let me assure you that we have followed the standard approach in the reviewing process.

Finally, and I will now speak from a personal perspective, I am also a veteran, having served 33 years first as a pilot, and then as a physician. I have also been seriously injured in a military aircraft accident. Believe me that I do understand the effects of ill health and I empathize with those unwell veterans you have heard from, as well as with those who have not testified. I also understand their frustrations. Accordingly, I do not think these veterans should perceive me as their adversary in this process.

9:50 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Thank you, Dr. Morisset.

I'm sorry, but is it “Dr. Morisset” or “Mr. Morisset”?

9:50 a.m.

Chairman of the Committee, Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health

Dr. Pierre Morisset

It's anything. It's whatever you say. If I have a tie on, it's “Mister”, and if I have a white coat, it's “Doctor”.

9:50 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

9:50 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Okay, sir.

9:55 a.m.

Chairman of the Committee, Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health

Dr. Pierre Morisset

If I'm in an aircraft, it's “General”.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

I just wanted to give you the title that you've worked so hard for, Dr. Morisset. Thank you very much.

We'll now move on to Madame Hughes, please, for five minutes.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON

Thank you very much for your comments, Dr. Morisset.

The veterans who have appeared before our committee all spoke about studies that tended to confirm the effect of depleted uranium on their health. Why not put them in the study? Even if you did not agree with the findings of those studies, it would have been interesting to know why they had been rejected. After all, the report is supposed to inform veterans, but they are not getting any information about these studies.

9:55 a.m.

Chairman of the Committee, Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health

Dr. Pierre Morisset

Could you please tell me which studies you are referring to, in general?

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON

Many case studies have been done. Mr. Chicoine's staff did some research and found a number of studies done by Canada on depleted uranium that were not included in the report. There was a study done by Atomic Energy of Canada in 2011. National Defence's Research and Development also did studies in 2000, 2002 and 2004, as did the Royal Military College in 2000 and 2001. There are also the 1999 and 2006 reports on decontaminating Valcartier.

Why were these reports not mentioned?

9:55 a.m.

Chairman of the Committee, Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health

Dr. Pierre Morisset

That is very broad. You are talking about several things. You are talking about case studies. The report for all of Dr. McDiarmid's studies did not include case studies. It is the same for the Institute of Medicine studies.

Furthermore, the case studies are interesting when it comes to raising rare problems that have come up from the beginning. For example, these kinds of situations can arise in the case of new drugs, even though studies were done before patents were obtained. Even though studies have been conducted, some side effects can appear later, once the drugs have been used by a larger population over several years.

These case studies, for example someone who has rare side effects, will be published. Let me be clear that these case studies will be published, because that may give rise to a certain dialogue. We find out about one case study, which sparks another in another country, and so on. However, these studies are not included in epidemiological studies on large populations.

As for the Valcartier studies, I know nothing about them. I am not aware of that. We would have heard about it if there were studies at Valcartier having to do with depleted uranium, which I highly doubt. The only study by the Royal Military College had to do with urine tests.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON

Thank you.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Very quickly, please, Madame Hughes.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON

You made recommendation seven for veterans. Would you go further and say that they should be given the benefit of the doubt? Should we continue the study more broadly, to include Gulf War syndrome? What would your recommendation to the committee be?

9:55 a.m.

Chairman of the Committee, Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health

Dr. Pierre Morisset

I will talk about recommendations later, which will answer your question in part.

As for the benefit of the doubt, I will respond as Dr. McDiarmid did. It is not up to me to tell you how decisions like that should be made when it comes to veterans.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Thank you, Madame Hughes.

As a point of clarification, our analyst is going to mention the Valcartier one, Dr. Morisset, for your information as well.

9:55 a.m.

Jean-Rodrigue Paré Committee Researcher

I'm sorry, but I am without a voice today.

It's just that in Valcartier, about 15 years ago, some DU was stored there and they decided to have a decontamination procedure preventively to remove what was stored.

9:55 a.m.

Chairman of the Committee, Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health

Dr. Pierre Morisset

I'll do the talking. Being the doctor, I'll ask the questions.

If I understand correctly, was there no accident? Was there no fire?