Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2023

[Carolyn Hughes]

That's okay.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I have two motions related to the documents we received on January 26. I'm going to move one of them, but before I do that I'm going to give notice of the other one. I didn't have it translated in time the other day, so I'll give notice of it now, and I can move it at a future date.

I'll read it into the record, and we can provide it to the clerks to distribute to the committee.

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a), the committee order that Veterans Affairs Canada provide and, if necessary, create a transcript of the recorded telephone conversation of July 21, 2022 (providing for the redaction of any personal information that would identify a veteran), referred to in the document referred to on page 230 of the documents submitted to the committee on January 26, 2023.

I'd also like to move the following motion:

That the committee:

(a) Recognize that Veterans Affairs Canada did not provide all the documents ordered according to the following motion, adopted on December 12, 2022:

—and then I have the text of the motion that was adopted, which can be referred back to, and then—

(b) Demand that all briefing notes, memos, emails and text or other electronic messages from Veterans Affairs Canada officials prepared for or sent to the Minister of Veterans Affairs regarding medical assistance in dying, or MAID, including related to the internal investigation into the matter, be provided to the committee within seven calendar days of the adoption of this motion.

You'll note, Mr. Chair and other members of the committee, that part (b) simply mirrors exactly the first portion of the motion we passed back on January 26. I suspect that nobody in this committee would have any disagreement with the motion, because we all agreed to it in the past. Unfortunately, it wasn't complied with entirely. I think some misunderstanding or miscommunication may have occurred, so I'm not blaming anybody at Veterans Affairs. I think it was an honest mistake, but it was a mistake, and the documents weren't all provided.

What we're asking for is just the rest of the documents. I think they apply to the date range in the second part of the motion, which is January 1, 2019 to December 7, 2022. Obviously, there was no limitation on that portion of the motion, so we're asking for the documents that would be outside that range.

You'll note that I've given a very short time frame, seven days. That's mainly because they should have provided them before, and I think that needs to be recognized. As a result, it should be done quickly. However, I'll also point out that it's quite unlikely there was any communication about medical assistance in dying prior to January 1, 2019, within Veterans Affairs. I would think that if any existed before that, it would be pretty limited, so we'd be talking about a pretty small date range—basically everything after December 7 last year. There shouldn't be a lot of records or require a lot of effort, but it is something that I think is important to this committee. We can see in the documents that there are some email chains, for example, that have been cut off. Obviously it would be important for the committee to be able to see the remainder of those chains.

I move that motion. I think it's pretty self-explanatory, and I'll leave it at that. Hopefully we can just vote on it and get the rest of the documents the committee has already asked for anyway. All we're doing is asking that this be followed through with. Hopefully we can pass it and get back to Ms. Hughes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Mr. Richards.

I'm sorry also, Ms. Hughes. We have to discuss this motion.

I'm open for debate.

Are there any interventions?

Mr. Casey, go ahead, please, and after that will be Mr. Samson.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Mr. Richards indicated that there may have been some misunderstanding. That's certainly borne out by the document that was produced, in which the department indicated that it had received assurance or some information from the clerk that the date limit referred to in part (b) of the motion was also applicable to part (a).

I think it's incumbent upon us to hear from the clerk as to exactly what the communication was between the clerk and the people collecting the documents. It matters to me in terms of the tone of the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Casey.

I know the clerk has an answer for that.

Please, Ms. Dallaire.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Audrée Dallaire]

The committee adopted the motion on December 12. On December 14, the department contacted me to ask what the deadline was for section a. Since I hadn't received any instructions from the committee on the matter, I asked the chair, and he decided to make the deadline the same for sections a and b, in other words, use the deadline in section b for section a, as well. I got back to the department the same day with the chair's suggestion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you. I'd like to finish with Mr. Casey.

Is that clear?

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

I understood her to say that it came from you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Excuse me. You understand that...?

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

I understood her to say that it came from you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Well, as she said, I discussed it with her. When you ask for documents, you have to specify the date and how long.... The minister was dealing with that. I said that this was the time of interest.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You're welcome.

Before I go to Mr. Richards, it's Mr. Samson.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm going to touch on the tone of the motion. We're making the assumption that Veterans Affairs did not produce something that we asked of them. Based on the information that was provided, Veterans Affairs provided exactly the information that was asked for, based on the interpretation that was left there.

If we changed the contextualization of the motion, then I could support it. It's obvious in my readings here that Veterans Affairs didn't do anything on purpose, and the hours they spent through the Christmas holidays preparing all these documents.... If you had been more specific in your first part of the motion—or if we had, as a committee, because we all voted for it—then we could have expected to get all the information. Based on what was submitted through a motion, however, and the interpretation that was given to them, it's obvious that Veterans Affairs did what they understood was the requirement.

I feel that the opening comment about recognizing that Veterans Affairs did not provide the documents.... They provided the documents that they understood they had to provide. That's very important, I believe, to be fair to everyone around the table who voted for that motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Samson.

Mr. Richards, you have the floor.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I just wanted to address the comment around tone. I was aware of the context when I drafted the motion, because I'd had that conversation.

My attempt here was to not throw anybody under the bus. Since I now have to address it, I think the chair made a mistake in his interpretation, and therefore provided that advice to Veterans Affairs.

This was an attempt to provide a factual statement. They didn't provide all the documents. I'm not saying it's their fault that they didn't provide all the documents. I'm not saying they intentionally didn't provide all the documents. It's just a factual statement. All the documents were not provided to the committee.

I'm open to suggestions, if you think there's something that would make that more clear. There's no malice intended here. I'm very open to that, because that's not the point. The point is to get the information.

I just didn't want to throw anybody under the bus—the chair, or anybody else for that matter. It was simply an intention to state the fact that the documents weren't provided. You have to state that fact. Otherwise the motion doesn't make sense.

That's all it is. There was no attempt to place blame on Veterans Affairs. If you think there's something in there that does, I'm very open to hearing an amendment that would remove any doubt about that. The point is that we just want all the documents.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

With all due respect, I think you threw Veterans Affairs under the bus. If I worked for Veterans Affairs and I read that, I would feel personally that I didn't deliver publicly.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

That's amended.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Yes, that's amended. That's what I'm saying. I think the best way around that is to say that the intent of paragraph a. of motion 1 was.... Then there's the date and so on.

I know how hard they worked to produce all of this throughout the holidays. I would like to try to work together as a team to make that happen.

Thank you.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

If I might make a suggestion, we could take Veterans Affairs right out of it, then. It was not an attempt on my part to do that. I can assure you of that.

We could just say “recognizing that the committee did not receive all the documents ordered according to the following motion”. That's not saying who was to blame or why it didn't happen. It's just saying “recognizing that the committee did not receive all the documents ordered”, etc.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Recognizing that the committee did not specify the dates or whatever, then. It comes to the same thing.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

We did specify the dates. It's just that the chair misunderstood.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

We didn't specify the date of the 18th.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Yes. There is a back and—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I'm open to something else, but I'm just trying to take Veterans Affairs out of it. I'm open to whatever....