Evidence of meeting #55 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was women.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
Sergeant (Retired), As an Individual
Sure. I'm hoping that this is going to work. I will say my Internet connection is [Technical difficulty—Editor]
Can you hear me okay now?
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Blake Richards
We are having just enough challenge with your audio, unfortunately.... I think it's mostly possible for those of us in English to pick it up, but it is a challenge for our interpreters, who cannot interpret, and therefore we are unable to utilize your testimony at this point in time.
We're going to have one of our technicians reach out to you to see if they can correct it so we can give you the opportunity to come back on. Just stay there and someone will reach out to you.
We'll have to move on for the meantime. We'll get that corrected as quickly as we can.
Mr. Miao, do you want to redirect your questions?
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Wilson Miao Liberal Richmond Centre, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Maybe I can direct the question to Major Seviour.
Before that, Sergeant Ryan, if you have anything you would like to share with the committee, you're welcome to send your comments to the clerk.
Major Seviour, please, if you could....
4:30 p.m.
Major (Retired), As an Individual
Moving forward, I've thought a lot about it, because I think this crisis is an opportunity to move forward in a better way. That's the million-dollar question. We're talking about cultural change.
I'm going to be the honorary Lieutenant-Colonel for a reserve unit, and I was at a meeting of all uniformed members recently. They fell into two categories: men who wanted to explain to me that they had no part of it and men who wanted to tell me that they were the good guys.
I think, me included, we all have to take responsibility for the culture. For those men who said they weren't part of it, it's not true. You cannot spend the amount of time that some of these people spend in the military and not hear demeaning comments, sexualized comments against women, women's voices not being heard.
I was part of the problem too. I didn't speak up because I needed that career. I felt I had something to prove. The harder they pushed me, the more I was determined to demonstrate my capabilities.
All three of us were raped, though, and in my case by the commandant of a school. He's not one of the 13 who have already come out, but am I about to go before...? No. That was so long ago.
What I wanted to see was change, and to see Master Corporal Wojcichowsky, who's clearly way younger.... I mean, I put a uniform on in 1979, and to hear that the change.... What can we do? I think we all have to take responsibility to nip any misogynistic comments in the bud and to raise our women to speak up.
I think, as Canadians, it behooves us to start valuing women's skills, which are softer, which are patience, collaboration and compassion.
I can give you great examples of working with generals who were hard charging, with all the skills we value in the army—strong men—but they didn't solicit co-operation. Anyone who served in the Afghanistan conflict could have predicted the outcome.
4:30 p.m.
Major (Retired), As an Individual
You can't make love and war at the same time, and I think as Canadians we all have to take responsibility for changing the culture.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Blake Richards
Thank you.
I'm sorry, Mr. Miao. Your time is up.
We'll move now to Mr. Desilets from the Bloc Québécois for five minutes.
4:30 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I thank our guests for being here and for their service. We are all saddened to hear the meeting will be cut short, unfortunately.
I have an image in mind. Since I've been part of the committee, for three or four years, we heard that 25% of women were raped in the army. Today, we have three of these women before us, which makes 100%. It's very sad.
Ms. Wojcichowsky, the Canadian Armed Forces boasted for months that they invested a lot of money, $3.7 million if I'm not mistaken, in Saint‑Jean‑sur‑Richelieu, in Quebec, to improve equipment for women in the army. You touched on the subject earlier. Is the equipment you get today, since you are still a soldier, or that your colleagues get, adequate? I'm talking specifically about clothing.
4:30 p.m.
MCpl Jacqueline Wojcichowsky
So far, for the equipment, we have not received much. It seems as though out east gets all of the equipment first before out west gets anything. We're the last place to get anything.
4:30 p.m.
MCpl Jacqueline Wojcichowsky
Usually it's always out east. It's east to west, and we're the last people to get any new things. A friend of mine dropped me off today. He used to be the chief warrant officer, Chief Warrant Officer (retired) Cuffe, who was ordering all of the equipment and clothing. He would say, “Go to Shiloh,” or, “Go to Edmonton or Wainwright,” to get them to try the clothing first, because they're the coldest. No, they sent it out east.
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
It makes no sense.
Are you still dealing with physical injuries due to equipment that wasn't necessarily adequate when you were in the field?
4:35 p.m.
MCpl Jacqueline Wojcichowsky
Yes, we do. I have them all the time. For example, our flak jackets are flat. I'm not trying to be ignorant, but we have flat flak jackets when as women we should have breasted stuff. It's flat. They're all flat. They should be made for our bodies. Stuff should have been properly designed years ago, but it's all flat and it comes apart.
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Ms. Seviour and Ms. Ryan, I'll ask you the same question. Are you dealing with physical impacts due to bad equipment the army gave you?
4:35 p.m.
Major (Retired), As an Individual
If you're asking me, I wouldn't say I could point to any specific physical issue I have due to a lack of equipment and gear, but I will echo Master Corporal Wojcichowsky's comments that in all the time I was in, they never made progress. The straps wouldn't fit on my shoulders. The flak vests don't fit properly.
I used to have a pistol on my hip, and every time I went to the bathroom I was afraid it would fall in the toilet, so I had my own shoulder holster made. It's just that the people in procurement and really in so many areas just don't consider women's issues.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Blake Richards
There's not enough time left, Mr. Desilets. She can answer you right after the break.
Ms. Ryan—I'm not using your time, Mr. Desilets—we are going to pause in five or six minutes so we can vote. During that time your audio will be tested to see if it can be fixed. If we are able to do that, and hopefully we will be, then I will give you a couple of minutes to address the last couple of items before we start with our next round of questioning.
Mr. Desilets, you have 35 seconds.
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Ms. Wojcichowsky, I have another question for you. Do you think support offered when leaving the Canadian Armed Forces is enough? Are you actually supported during the transition to civilian life?
4:35 p.m.
MCpl Jacqueline Wojcichowsky
Why, I hope so, but right now, as I was just saying to another member here, I don't trust VAC. I have constant migraines. I'm afraid about what's going to happen to my reproductive system because I was raped. What's going to happen? Are the male VAC members going to understand about what happens to me and my reproduction because my internals have been damaged? Will they know what's going to happen to me?
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Please excuse me. You are still active in the Armed Forces and I should have phrased my question differently.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Blake Richards
Thank you, Mr. Desilets.
Now we have Mr. Desjarlais from the New Democratic Party for five minutes.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Thank you very much, Chair.
I first want to acknowledge the stories shared by each of you today, and of course your service. It's not just the service you've offered Canadians. You're offering a service here as well. I know how hard and difficult that is and how painful it has been, suffering for so long and maybe even suffering in silence. I really appreciate your voice. It means a lot to me as a newer member of Parliament, but also as someone from Edmonton.
Your story in particular, Master Corporal, has really pained me to listen to, but I'm just so proud and grateful that you're a member of our province, you're a member of our city, and you're a member of our country, because it's not without sacrifice that it gets better.
I just wanted to say that it's not for naught. No matter what happens, no matter if this report goes the way it needs to and no matter if these things are not implemented, you're doing something that's going to help people no matter what, even if governments, whether this one or the next, don't do those things. I want you to know that your story will live on in my heart, and hopefully the hearts of every member of this committee, to help us know that we have far more work to do.
As a matter of fact, this is a true failure. You're talking about a failure of our governments, not just the sitting government but governments. We've heard the testimony from members who are with us and who have served for so long, and to hear that this is continuous, and that your experience validates that it's continuing, brings me great sadness, especially coming from a tradition of matriarchy. I come from a small community originally, in the northeast of Alberta, a first nations and Métis community. To hear of women being treated this way, especially women who are warriors, pains me a lot. I know how much more you're worth than this system has allowed you.
I wanted to start with that and to also mention the aspect of cultural change that was spoken to and how important that cultural change needs to be. This isn't just an issue of VAC. It's not just an issue of the Canadian Armed Forces. This is an issue of our culture, of how we prop up hatred in this place and across our country and how it has devastating results. It devastates our sisters, our mothers and our grandmothers. It demeans all Canadians when we allow this kind of treatment to continue. I want to thank you for that.
I also want to speak directly to transition supports.
Sergeant Kate Ryan and Major Seviour, I know that you both, of course, have had to go through this experience. You've had to endure in many ways, I think, the lack of supports that should be necessary for many folks serving. Could you explain to us your experience of transitioning out of military life and back into civilian life, and the kinds of supports that you feel were lacking—or that were there and that worked?
Maybe I'll start with Major Seviour.
4:40 p.m.
Major (Retired), As an Individual
First, I want to acknowledge and to recognize that was probably one of the most heartfelt acknowledgements of service, so thank you, Mr. Desjarlais. That meant a lot to me.
I've been a client of Veterans Affairs for 11 years after an Afghanistan injury, so I've had a lot of dealings with them. On this issue in particular, I'll say for the physical injury, Veterans Affairs has been very helpful, but I almost felt like I was dealing with a private insurer who denies everything the first time in the hope you'll go away. Eventually, my physical.... I'm well serviced by Veterans Affairs in regard to my physical injury.
With regard to the class action, I really want to say something here that's important and that was my experience, and I fear it is the experience of many more women. When the class action was established, the Veterans Affairs policy regarding sexual trauma and the impacts on women's health and women's lives as a result of multiple traumas—not just single-incident injury—was not identified in the veterans care policy. I've been writing the ombudsman on this issue.
When I was diagnosed—I spent six months being diagnosed by a clinical psychologist with female sexual interest disorder, which is a new DSM diagnosis, and with persistent depressive—Veterans Affairs ignored one of them. I spoke to four different people, who said, “Well, we didn't deny it. We just ignored it.” You know, that's kind of insulting to me as a Canadian and as a client—you just ignored it. I asked them to put that in writing, but they wouldn't. The desk officer laughed, and I said everything in my dealings with Veterans Affairs I have to put in writing, but you're not affording me that same opportunity.
In the ombudsman report, as I suspected—I've been in the government and in the military a long time—their policies weren't updated at the time the government announced the class action. I was right. They sent me the new policies, and in the new policies, they wouldn't accept the clinical psychologist's report. He's a Ph.D. with over 25 years' experience.
They wanted me to go to my GP. She was insulted. She wrote a statement to Veterans Affairs, saying, “Are you aware of the state of health care in Canada? You're asking me to fill out these forms when an expert spent six months evaluating, and you won't accept a clinical psychologist.” I contacted the ombudsman and pleaded with them to change the wording to have clinical psychologists, not only GPs or psychiatrists, approved, and they wouldn't. They said their hands were tied. To me, that is just insane.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
