Evidence of meeting #55 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was women.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Blake Richards
Thank you, we'll have to stop there.
I'm not going to be able to accept a point of order right now. You'll have to hold your point of order until after the votes, because I am going to suspend the meeting.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Blake Richards
If that was your point of order, that's fine.
I wanted to give the witness an opportunity to finish, so we've done that.
Before I suspend the meeting, I'm going to remind our one witness, Sergeant Ryan, that you will be doing some testing of your audio during the suspension. Hopefully, I'll be able to give you an opportunity to address the question you had before we commence our second round.
With that, for about 10 minutes, so everyone can put their vote in, I'm going to suspend the meeting.
The meeting is suspended.
5 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Blake Richards
Members, we'll recommence the meeting now.
We have Sergeant Ryan back with us, and we believe.... Hopefully, the issues have been resolved, at least for the time being. What I am going to do is.... I know she was attempting to answer a question.
If you can recall what the question was, Sergeant Ryan, I will allow you a minute or so now to finish that answer. Hopefully, your connection will remain solid. If that isn't the case at any point in the next half hour or so, we may have to reconsider that. Hopefully, that won't happen. I'll give you that minute now, then we'll have time for the full second round of questions, I believe, before we have to wrap up.
I'll give you the floor now for about a minute, Sergeant Ryan, if you'd like to finish that answer.
5 p.m.
Sergeant (Retired), As an Individual
I'm not exactly sure what question it was. I know there was a question about kit and the fitting of kit. From 1978 to 2004, there simply wasn't kit for women, period—end of story. You either made do or you took the high road. There was no accommodation whatsoever for women—for the way we thought, acted and led. We were an afterthought.
Can you imagine being an afterthought? For me, it was four years. Gee, do you speak up? No. You're used to hiding in the corner, because that was your place. If you dared to venture out, you were quickly hammered back. That's the culture that I and, I'm sure, Lieutenant Commander Seviour, understand. We did it for self-preservation, if nothing else. When you talk about culture and kit issues, well, yes, I've been there and done that. I have far too many T-shirts.
That was one question about kit issues. I can't remember what the other question was, but my minute is probably up.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Blake Richards
Your time has indeed run out.
We now have time to move on to a second round of questions. The Conservative Party and Liberal Party will each get five minutes, and the Bloc Quebecois and New Democratic Party will each get two and half minutes. Then, five more minutes will be granted to both the Conservative Party and the Liberal Party.
Ms. Wagantall, you have the floor for five minutes.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to direct this next question to Master Corporal Jacqueline.
We know it appears that sexual misconduct is on the rise in the Canadian Armed Forces. In the 2018 fiscal year, there were 256 cases reported. That number has risen every single year since then. In the last fiscal year, there were 444.
In DND's most recent departmental plan, there isn't even a determined goal to reduce cases of sexual misconduct. All it says in that column is, “Target to be determined”. This says to me that there isn't clarity on how they're going to deal with this issue.
We heard the numbers are larger because people are feeling far more comfortable and safe coming forward now. Would you say that is reflective of the circumstances now? You're still serving. What was the suggestion you had in regard to a means of dealing with that through a target team?
5:05 p.m.
MCpl Jacqueline Wojcichowsky
I brought up to you, when I first met you, a suggestion to bring in a target team. You bring in a team. Bring in the new people to take out the old, because we have old people who have the belief that women shouldn't be in the army. We bring that in to start weeding out the old, who have the mentality that women shouldn't be in the army. This is old [Inaudible—Editor] of the old.
I've been in the army since 1992. Start bringing in a new mentality of, “This is how,” because it is what it is. You bring in what we have and start.... Bring it from the top down, because you don't see it. You bring it from the bottom up. We're all working together, but it's this way. You have to bring them together. If you don't bring the top...and bring it forward.... If you have them all together, you can work together.
I hope that makes sense.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
What I'm hearing is that the goal is to change the culture, and to try to change it from the bottom up will not work. Our problems are from the top down.
Is that what I'm hearing?
5:05 p.m.
MCpl Jacqueline Wojcichowsky
That's correct. Yes, it is.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
Okay, thank you.
Joanne Seviour, you talk about how you're focused on building a more inclusive and respectful culture. That's what we all want to see across all of society, let alone specifically in this case, within our armed forces.
When you were speaking and you were talking about your experiences, you said you needed your career. In a way, that was used against you.
How would that change? That's something we need to change, so that you don't have to fear for your career. That's what keeps you silent.
Could you speak to that?
5:05 p.m.
Major (Retired), As an Individual
I think....
Am I breaking up, or do you hear me? Can you hear me clearly?
5:05 p.m.
Major (Retired), As an Individual
I'm sorry. I lost my train of thought. It can be difficult to focus sometimes.
You were asking again about the cultural change and what was necessary.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
On the one hand, you want to see a more inclusive and respectful culture, which everyone would say is the goal, yet when you talk about your actual life experience, which was in the service—and that would be reflected even today—we're seeing that's still happening. You commented that you needed your career and that was what held you back from exposing those circumstances.
How do we deal with that?
5:10 p.m.
Major (Retired), As an Individual
The Minister of Defence has committed to following all the recommendations of Justice Arbour's report, but it's a bigger issue. They've taken it out of the military justice system for assaults. Those sent to the civilian police forces...they don't have the capacity to deal with it.
They're very complicated investigations when it comes to sexual assault. I needed my career because my father died prematurely. I needed the money. I was smart enough to recognize that any sign of weakness is capitalized on, so I wasn't going to let them see me.... I never commented on this for 30 years, until the class action sent me a bunch of paperwork and asked me to fill it out.
Needing a career is.... I needed the money, and I had something to prove: that I was capable and I was smart.
When I go to the reunion with General Hillier's staff in Ottawa in the fall, they will be shocked if they ask me, and I ask them directly, because nobody has heard these stories.
I don't know what to say.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Blake Richards
Thank you for that.
We'll have to move now to the next questioner.
Ms. Rechie Valdez from the Liberal party, you have five minutes.
June 5th, 2023 / 5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Rechie Valdez Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses who have joined us for our committee. I appreciate your service and sacrifice for our country and, in particular, your honesty today. I recognize that sharing your stories is not easy. To each of you, your testimony is powerful, strong and necessary for change, which is what you're asking for.
Through you, Mr. Chair, I'll direct my first set of questions to Sergeant Kathleen Mary Ryan.
We received your brief. I have some questions. I reviewed the brief, and there are a couple of things that I want to clarify.
You mentioned you've seen improvements in the professional and economic aspects for women veterans. Can you elaborate on what you are referring to?
There were two main points that you covered. One was related to career training and planning, and the second was financial benefits.
5:10 p.m.
Sergeant (Retired), As an Individual
When I first joined, we made less than 50% of what our male counterparts made. When I first joined the reserves, I made $19 a day. When I retired, that was totally different.
Things have changed. Some things have improved. There are two things. One is the level of education that is required to be in my job as a medical technician and air evac. There is a level of intelligence that is needed to do the jobs and the tasks within that job. They train you to do that. There is an expectation that you are going to achieve that level of expertise in, say, air evac.
At one time, you didn't have women in air positions and you didn't have women on the ships. Women were background. We were in the back lines. We weren't spoken of; we were spoken to.
What was your other question?
5:10 p.m.
Sergeant (Retired), As an Individual
Yes, of course, the financial benefits go along with that. You progress in rank and you progress in pay. You progress in specialization, and it's called “spec pay”: You get more more pay. There are more opportunities open for women. I believe that now they are across the board. Women can serve on ships. They can serve in air. Maybe submarines...that might be the only one women can't serve on.
The benefits are there. They now make....
Now, as the Master Corporal said, no, I have not been into Afghanistan, so I don't know about the flak jacket issue. I know that the one I received was—
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Blake Richards
I'm sorry, Sergeant Ryan. We have more bells for another vote.
However, I note that we have only about 15 minutes or so remaining in our meeting anyway. Do I have unanimous consent to finish the meeting at 5:30?
5:10 p.m.
Some hon. members
Agreed.
5:15 p.m.
Sergeant (Retired), As an Individual
There have been changes. There have been improvements, but when I look back over the years at how long it took to get those changes, now that we have those changes, are they still looking at how they can improve those changes or are they just going, “Yes, we did it. That's it. It's over with. We have clothing for women”? It comes down to, as every other member has mentioned, culture: It's a culture.
Have we gone to countries like Germany, England and France and asked them what their sexual assault rate is? Have we asked them what their policies are and how they handle it? I mean, we certainly cannot be the only people in NATO who have this problem, and if we are, well, we're not as good a country as I thought we were. That's something that needs to be looked at.
