Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 26th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 67 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Monday, October 3, 2022, the committee is resuming its study on the experience of women veterans.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, and members, like witnesses, are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would ask you to wait until I recognize you by name.

You have the interpretation online. You can choose English, French or the floor to hear what is being said here.

As you know, this room is equipped with a fairly efficient audio system, but we must be careful during the meeting not to cause hearing damage to our interpreters. While you are speaking, please avoid having the earphones too close to the mike to avoid interrupting the interpretation and to protect the hearing of our interpreters.

As a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair.

All the connection tests have been done.

I also have to give a warning about psychological trauma, given the study we are conducting.

Before welcoming our witnesses, I would like to give you a warning. We'll be discussing experiences related to mental health, which may be triggering to the people here with us, viewers, members and their staff with similar experiences. If you feel distressed or need help, please advise the clerk know.

For today, we have with us people from the sexual misconduct support and resource centre from DND. If you need anything, go to the clerk and those people who are with us.

Thank you for being here.

Before we welcome our witnesses—we have one here and two online—I have one more piece of business.

I would like to take just one minute to make a proposition to the committee as the chair. There will be no discussion really, or you can come to me.

During the special study that we are doing on veteran women, as you can see we have a trigger warning. This is the first time we are doing this kind of study. The study is important for women veterans and for us. However, I've heard from colleagues and witnesses since the last meeting that some of the women veterans are unwilling to come and testify because they said they feel like they were used or dismissed.

It is my duty to inform members of the committee that I have instructed the clerk to organize as soon as possible a session of two hours of training on trauma. It's free training that will help us know how to behave with people dealing with trauma, whether it's PTSD or not.

It's important for veterans who come to testify to feel comfortable reporting on the extremely difficult situations they have experienced. They are very courageous to come and testify here, in front of us and in front of the cameras. From the start of this study, we have taken steps to support them specifically when they participate in this committee.

I'd like to know if I have unanimous consent of the members of the committee to do that training as soon as possible.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much.

Now I am pleased to welcome the witnesses we have here today, appearing as individuals. They are all women veterans.

We have Alice Aiken, a veteran, vice-president research and innovation, Dalhousie University, by video conference.

We have Nicole Langlois, a veteran.

She is joining us in person and will have to leave around 5:00 p.m. A number of members are also telling us that they would like the meeting to be over at 5:30 p.m.

By video conference we have Brigitte Laverdure, who is a veteran.

Ms. Langlois, you will have the honour to begin. Your speaking time will be timed, and I'll let you know when you have one minute left.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Nicole Langlois, Veteran, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, committee.

My name is Nicole Langlois and I am a retired bombardier. I served seven years in the reserve army with the field artillery, from 1990 to 1997.

My military highlights include numerous combat courses and exercises with the 78th Field Battery, 20 RCA; and with the RCA battle school out in Shilo, with 1 RCHA and 2 PPCLI. My second highlight was deployment with the UN/NATO forces in 1992, with 1 RCHA. I served as a peacekeeper in Rural Battery at the observation post of the Canadian contingent zone. This deployment was the first time females directly served a frontline role. I trained to go to the former Yugoslavia with 1 RCHA in 1995, but the deployment was cancelled. I did pre-deployment training with 2 PPCLI. I became an M113 tracked vehicle operator.

During this time, I experienced barriers that no one should ever have to go through. Examples of my barriers include physical and mental barriers.

While training for the M113 tracked vehicle operation, I was regularly required to move, carry and manipulate items many times heavier than should be safely handled by any one person of my gender or physical stature. There was no safety equipment for back support or eyes, and there was minimal hearing protection. I used a three-foot pry bar and, without assistance, torqued an entire track as the instructors berated me about my supposed inadequacies in being a tracked vehicle operator. The nature of the work, the conditions in which it was performed, and the approach the instructors took were unsafe and abusive.

This kind of treatment undermined the Canadian Armed Forces' official position of inclusion for female soldiers in combat positions. It demonstrated a desire by many male soldiers to shift women out of those formerly male-only occupations and relegate them to support positions. I want to note that I did complete my M113 course.

During my time in service, I never reached out for help for physical injuries or mental health issues. Asking for help was frowned upon. It was a sign of weakness. I felt that I would be let go if I admitted to hurting.

I had barriers because I am a woman and a mother. I experienced verbal abuse behaviour, which caused mental stress. Few female soldiers at the time had the support of fellow peers and superior officers. Women were seen by many as objects or lesser people. Sexual harassment and displays of pornography in mixed company were commonplace. I heard, but have no formal proof, that some of my superiors did not wish to retain me because of my gender and parental status. Being a single parent, especially a female, in a combat arms trade in that era was not as well supported then as it is currently.

I believe that I was a good soldier and diligent in my duties. I am sure that the lack of respect and support by both regiments due to my gender and parental status helped to compound my PTSD, which I experienced and still suffer from.

I was a single mother in the military, which was very challenging. Becoming a mother played a huge role in my life. I felt I had to chose between the military or being a mom. Finally, I decided that being a mom was more important. Looking back at this decision, it is apparent that some of my supervisors navigated me to feel that I needed to choose between service or motherhood.

After retiring from the military, I found that all of my training was primarily for male-oriented jobs. There were many low points when I questioned my purpose in life. I asked myself what I wanted to do with my life. I looked inside myself mentally, and all I could see was that I had a military background. Who's going to hire someone who is a combat veteran?

I found a civilian job as a substitute teacher while I lived in New Hampshire. I had no formal education training, like a bachelor of arts with education. The school looked at my military qualifications and said, she's got leadership skills. They also saw leadership in my being a mother. For once, being ex-military was a positive.

I have worked at various other jobs, such as a school bus operator, sports coach, security guard, custodian and guest speaker. However, the results of my military service hinder my life.

During the last two and a half decades, I didn't realize I needed help, mentally and physically, from my time in the combat arms trade of the military.

My UN tour in Cyprus left me with lasting physical and emotional damage. I was hospitalized due to a back injury, and at one point I injured my knee as well. Both injuries still plague me today. Experiences in Cyprus also contributed to my lasting PTSD.

My pride made it difficult to talk to anyone, as I had the stigma against a soldier admitting weakness, but I sought psychological treatment when I felt completely defeated. Unfortunately, the professionals helping me had no experience with retired soldiers. Because of this, I was misdiagnosed and never received proper treatment for my PTSD.

In 2018, I was at my wits' end and called VAC to see if there was proper help for my physical injuries and mental damage from my time in the military.

The physical treatments I received started with rehabilitation to attempt to bring my body back to normal for my age. However, there are some long-term physical injuries that no rehab is able to repair. Since then, VAC has sent me to a doctor to help with my back injuries and pain management. Currently, all of those treatments are on hold as I fight cancer.

I spent many years after leaving the military having anxiety and depression and being unable to relax. Even now, I feel that I should be on alert for something that I think should happen but never does. I feel edgy and like there's a void in my life, but I also feel I won't be taken seriously. I still feel like I'm struggling on and immersed in bad memories that don't fade.

VAC connected me with a mental health professional who has diagnosed me with PTSD. My treatment has included medication, therapy and peer support groups. The peer support groups have been particularly helpful for me.

With regard to long-term prospects for my case, at my age I should still be working, but with my physical and mental injuries, I am unable to work. VAC is finally now realizing that and is helping me.

On my thoughts for potentially improving the situation of women in service today, there are three quick thoughts: advertising available veterans services that specifically target female veterans; using training to combat the stigma against veterans seeking help; and delivering training to all military and veterans as a way of targeting the commonly held beliefs about mental health within the military population.

An excellent study was done in the U.K., entitled “Exploring Barriers to Mental Health Treatment in the Female Veteran Population: A Qualitative Study”. There's a link, so you guys can go there.

I have also included a letter from three male veterans who are still friends with me today, who corroborate my experience. You have read them already.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Langlois, for your courageous testimony.

Members of the committee, I understand that we took more than five minutes, but I didn't want to interrupt.

[Nicole Langlois]

I know. I apologize.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

That's no problem at all.

I would now like to invite Dr. Alice Aiken, a veteran and vice-president of research and innovation at Dalhousie University, by videoconference.

Dr. Aiken, the floor is yours.

[Dr. Alice Aiken, Veteran, Vice-President Research and Innovation, Dalhousie University, As an Individual]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for inviting me to be here today.

My name is Alice Aiken. I served in the Canadian navy, first in the naval reserve and then in the regular force, from 1984 until 1998. When I got out of the military, I was a naval lieutenant.

When I was in the reserve, I was in the first class of women who were allowed to go through navigation training. I was called a MARS officer, maritime service. We were the first ones through as a class to learn to navigate ships. I worked full-time as a reservist after that, through the first Gulf War, at headquarters here in Halifax.

Following that, I went back to university to become a physiotherapist, and then I joined the regular force at that time, and the military paid for my education at Dalhousie. I was then posted to Kingston from 1994 to 1998 as a physiotherapist, first at RMC and then at the main base. I was the head of physiotherapy.

When I retired, I worked clinically full time and did a master's and Ph.D. part time at Queen's University. I became a faculty member in 2006 and, very shortly after that, worked with a group of people and was the original founder and first scientific director of the Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research.

Through my time in the military, I saw a lot of injury. I'll talk about my own experiences in a moment, but I saw a lot of injury, mistreatment and mental health issues, and it was my way, through research, to give back. I am really proud to say that the institute carries on today. It's a network of 46 Canadian universities and 13 international partners that research military, veteran and family health.

I moved on from the institute but not from the research. I still research in the area and, in fact, with one of my research teams, I have done a very in-depth research project into the data presented in the Deschamps report.

I do epidemiology work. I understand a lot about different physical health presentations between male and female veterans, so if that is of any use to this committee, I am happy to talk about that research as well. It is my research world.

When I was in the military, with that dichotomy, I got a lot of good out of the military. I learned how to be a great leader. I was offered responsibility at a very young age, especially being an officer, but it came with a downside as well. Going through navigation training, we often heard, “You're only passing because you're a woman.” We heard misogynistic comments or sexist comments. You really could not walk into the mess on a Friday night without sexist comments being made to you, and there were misogynistic comments in the workplace or being called “dear” by someone who was subordinate to you, or all of those things.

I will say that I had some unpleasant experiences, but I'm a pretty forthright person, and I was able to tackle them head-on. I think when you call out bad behaviour—and I was in a position to be able to do that as an officer—often it helps.

I will say that it leaves a mark. When they started a class action lawsuit, I became part of that suit because I wanted to tell my story and I wanted the military to be different for other people, because there are good things that come out of serving in the military, things that I greatly appreciate to this day. Many of my friends whom I see regularly are friends I met in the military, and we appreciate what we learned.

I will say that I've been a bit disappointed with the process around the inquiry. There seemed to be lots of money but very little support. Really, I became part of the suit because I wanted to tell my story, and I keep getting notes saying, “Well, we have to talk to 20,000 of you, and they're on number 438.” It's unacceptable, as far as I'm concerned.

Thank you for inviting me here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much for your testimony.

We now welcome Brigitte Laverdure, by videoconference.

Ms. Laverdure, you have five minutes.

[Brigitte Laverdure, Veteran, As an Individual]

Good morning, Mr. Chair, ladies and gentlemen members of the committee.

I would like to thank you for inviting me to appear before the committee.

My 17‑year military career was fraught with quite traumatic events, and they still have an effect on my daily life. However, over the years, I have learned some ways to manage these symptoms.

Today, in 2023, 43 years later, I am reliving the sexual assault I experienced during my basic training in Saint-Jean. This assault was not committed by a platoon colleague, but by a senior officer, who knew full well that I would not speak out for fear of being fired from the Canadian Armed Forces. At that time, I was 17 years old. I had to face the demons of silence and agree to be just a face to this predator. I was able to find the strength and courage not to give up my dream of becoming an airframe technician and to pursue this fine career.

Unfortunately, since November 2017, I have been in the whirlwind of the sexual misconduct class action lawsuit at the Department of National Defence. I am also trying to have this event recognized in my Veterans Affairs Canada file, which is still under appeal to VRAB, the Veterans Review and Appeal Board.

Since my file was in the media, my post-traumatic stress disorder has seriously worsened.

On May 24, 1986, I was faced with the death of Captain Tristan De Koninck when he crashed with, his F-18, on the base in Summerside, Prince Edward Island. As part of the base defence team, my duty was to retrieve the pilot and the aircraft parts. Need I mention that it isn't normal for anyone to recover human remains? I was young, and I thought that was part of my job. We had no psychological support and no medical follow-up.

On November 14, 1988, in Bagotville, Quebec, I feared for my life. I was suddenly thrown 75 feet into the air when a T-33 pilot, in preparation for the runway, made a wrong manoeuvre; I got the jet blast in my back. I had to undergo surgery on my left knee as a result of that incident. If I hadn't worn the proper winter clothing, part of my body would have been burned. Once again, no psychological support was offered to me, and no incident report was written against the pilot, because the pilot did not abort the start up in any way.

After several years of working in administrative positions, given my physical condition, in other words, my left knee, and undergoing job evaluations, I was downgraded and medically released. I felt like an old rag sent to the garbage after being dirtied. My release from the forces was miserable, and I felt alone in the process. Since then, I have always had to fight the system to have my health recognized at Veterans Affairs Canada. I felt like no one listened to me because I was a woman in a non-traditional trade, and I didn't have to be there.

In conclusion, I believe that there is no proactive attitude at the Department of National Defence or Veterans Affairs Canada when an individual undergoes trauma in the line of duty. For more than 10 years, I've been helping individuals, before or after they leave the armed forces. The majority of them don't even know that they're entitled to the services and care of Veterans Affairs Canada.

In closing, I would like to thank my psychiatrist, Dr. Hugues Poirier, for his support. In fact, since the sexual misconduct file was opened, he alone has been concerned about my psychological state, which is very fragile.

Thank you for your time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Ms. Laverdure.

Thank you to all three of you for your testimony, your courage and your service. People say that from time to time, but I want you to know that it's sincere when we say it.

Before continuing, I would like to acknowledge the presence of a few substitutes who are here today.

We have MP Hanley, who is replacing MP Miao. On the web, we have MP Shanahan for MP Casey for 45 minutes.

We will now start a round with four questioners. They have six minutes each.

I would like to start with Mrs. Cathay Wagantall for six minutes.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I want to mention a very brief story.

My husband and I took some counselling as a young couple. When the individual talked about how women are fine china teacups, my husband leaned over and said, “Cathay, you are the most beautiful Pyrex mug I have ever met.” I want to say today that I feel like a teacup in your presence. It's an honour to be here in the room. I thank you for contributing today. You're very brave, so I appreciate your being here so much.

I will start with Nicole. So many little portions of your sentences stood out to me.

First of all, you talked about leadership. They recognized your leadership in being a mother. I want to commend that. There's nothing better. For you to go through what you have and to care as a mother is significant, so thank you.

You said you sensed there was a desire to shift women out. We need to come to the foundation of why all of this suffering has taken place for women who have joined. It seems to me that they were thrown in without any thought, organization or consideration.

Do you have more you would like to say to that?

[Nicole Langlois]

At the time I served, at the beginning, I just wanted to be a soldier. I wanted to be equal. I didn't realize the more political ramifications. There was a soft entry back in the late 1980s, when they got in—when it became official that females were allowed in the combat arms. I wanted a challenge.

I accomplished what I could. I was trying to make this my full career, but when it's male-dominated in the combat arms.... I had to push twofold on that.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Exactly. That's understood. Thank you so much.

You indicated it was not as well supported then as it is now.

Do you sense anything improving? Is that where that's coming from? What makes you feel that way?

[Nicole Langlois]

I feel...not personally, but I have friends who are currently serving. They're saying it's very challenging. It is trying to break free, but it probably won't happen in my lifetime.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Therefore, it's on the backs of the women who are enrolling to deal with this, in order to make things better.

[Nicole Langlois]

Yes. We're still a small percentage, whether it's combat arms or not, because there's support that supports the combat arms. It's a small percentage. It's not much bigger than it was when I joined 32 years ago.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you so much. I appreciate that.

I would like to ask this of Ms. Aiken: You talked about wanting to share your story. You said you don't know at what point in time.... Only 438 of the 20,000 who requested have been able to share their story, and this is not appropriate.

Can you explain to me how you think we can do a better job of making sure that all those stories are on record? How would you like to present your story?

[Dr. Alice Aiken]

I was a bit surprised when the class action suit came out.

First of all, I do have a very close group of seven women. We all went through navy training together; none of us stayed in. We're very close, to this day. We all said, “Let's become part of the suit to tell our story.” You couldn't just do that. Part of the class action suit was that you couldn't just tell your story. You had to put in for a claim.

We said we'd do that, but it's not what we wanted. Only five of us were able to put in our stories; two were not able to. The two went to counselling, because it was very traumatic for them to think about their time in. I'm the only one who has been updated.

I'm not sure why the military would have started this process if it wasn't ready with, I don't know, thousands of counsellors on hand to take people's stories. It just seems to me to be really bad planning and—

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you.

I'm sorry. I just have a little time left. If you want to flesh that out in a statement, I would appreciate getting a better sense of that, because it needs to be done properly to give every woman her opportunity to share.

Do I have a bit of time left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You have 45 seconds.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Ms. Laverdure, you talk very openly and bravely about the circumstances that you have lived through. I thank you for that.

You talk about your involvement on the veterans ombud advisory council. Are you sitting on that advisory council now?

[Brigitte Laverdure]

Yes, I am. I'm with the ombudsman until 2025.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Can you explain to us a little of what you do on that council?

[Brigitte Laverdure]

We try to bring ideas together. The ombudsman made the group smaller. There were a lot of people on that council, and there are only eight of us now.