Ralph Goodale

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister have been asked similar questions in the House in the last number of days. They have pointed out that perhaps there were some comments by the Prime Minister that were taken out of context and misinterpreted.

The real gist of what the Prime Minister was saying is something that I repeated earlier this evening in my opening remarks. We are determined to find the administrative mistakes and problems and to ensure that they are corrected. Where there may be overpayments, we certainly want to see that money recovered and recollected by the Government of Canada. If there is any evidence of illegality on the part of anyone, that must be investigated and prosecuted under the law.

It is certainly my intention to make sure that for the future this program stands up to the tests of transparency, accountability and value for taxpayers' dollars that Canadians would expect and that the problems that existed in the past are properly pursued.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, again on the basis of the information that is before me at the present time, information that would be drawn from our own internal audit or information that would be drawn from the work of the auditor general thus far, there is no evidence that I am aware of, of fraud or misuse of public funds or criminal intent.

I would say that if and when there are any suspicious circumstances that come to the attention of me or of my officials, we are not only honour bound but indeed under the legal duty to refer those matters to the appropriate police authorities. Those authorities decide quite independently, as should be the case, whether an investigation should be launched and in what direction that investigation should go. The police are totally independent in making those decisions.

I want the hon. gentleman to know that we are pursuing all of these issues in a very assiduous way. I for one want to get to the bottom of any questionable circumstances as rapidly as possible and have the course of justice pursued.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, the internal audit that was done by the internal audit section of Public Works and Government Services Canada found, in relation to that period of time from 1997 to 2000, deficiencies in documentation. There were deficiencies in contracting procedures and in management practices.

But that internal audit did not disclose evidence of fraud, misuse of funds or criminal intent. Similarly, in the findings of the auditor general it seems to me on a fair reading of her report that she found unacceptable management practices and procedures but did not make a finding of political interference.

What has happened subsequent to that is that she of course is undertaking a full value for money audit on a government wide basis with respect to all sponsorships and advertising activity. In addition, either the auditor general or the other appropriate government officials, if and when matters requiring legal action were drawn to their attention, would make the appropriate reference to police authorities.

The evidence would show that all of the necessary steps are being taken to ensure that the level of probity that the hon. member would seek to achieve is being pursued aggressively by me, and by the department.

I would add one small point about political representations made by members of parliament. There were some allusions in the hon. member's question to that indirectly. It is perfectly legitimate for members of parliament to indicate to the minister responsible for a program that they support that program or a particular application under that program.

There are letters on file with my officials from members of all political parties in the House indicating their support for particular sponsorship initiatives. We would not want that form of representation on the part of members of parliament to be in any way impugned or limited, and I do not think the hon. member meant that in his question but I wanted to make the point clear.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, there is one interesting statistic. Back in 1995 when the current Minister of Health was the energy minister she set the target, in terms of greenhouse gases from federal government operations, to reduce them to 20% below 1990 levels and to reach that target by 2005. We have already reached that target. Our new target is now to get to 1990 levels minus 31% by the year 2010 and we are confident we will reach that.

The federal buildings initiative is a key part of this. It is so innovative. The private sector finances it and is paid back through the energy efficiency savings over time. It is a terrific program. We have promoted it reasonably well. We can go a lot further. I am glad to say that the public works department is one of the leaders in promoting this program through the Government of Canada.

At the moment I do not have a specific timeline to offer the member, but I refer him to the government House in order commitment that we made under action plan 2000 for Kyoto. He will find more detail there in terms of how we intend to pursue it.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, the statistics I have available to me on the question would indicate that back in 1997, which I believe was the year referred to in the question, in Canada's case, competitive contracting stood at the 80% level. At that time it was significantly higher than Europe which was at 63% or the United States which was at 63%, or Japan which was at 73%. We were doing better than most of the world even in the situation that was referred to in the question and described as unacceptable back in 1997.

I am pleased to report that in the intervening five years the Canadian performance has continued to improve and for the latest year for which statistics are available, which would be the calendar year 2000, 92% of the total value of government contracts in Canada were awarded competitively. We have moved up from 80% to 92%.

I agree with the general sentiment in the hon. member's question that we should be striving for competitive bidding to the maximum extent possible. There will be circumstances based upon pressing emergencies, dollar values, the public interest, or the single capabilities of a particular supplier where sole sourcing will make the best public policy. However that should be the exception and not the rule.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, the nine firms that are acknowledged as standing agents for this program, as it stands at the moment, were all selected by means of a competitive process. My predecessor identified some of the problems with the present roster, including the issue of regional balance. He indicated, while he was Minister of Public Works and Government Services, that we would go through the process again of a new request for proposals and a new selection of standing agents. That process is to commence on or about June 15, with a full national competition to be concluded in the fall.

Certainly one of the objectives of this new exercise would be to remedy any deficiencies that are apparent in the list, including the question of regional balance. That is something that will unfold over the course of the next number of months.

I would also note in my answer the caveat that the hon. gentleman referred to in his question and that is, for the future there may or there may not be a requirement for external agencies at all. That remains to be determined and I am certainly looking at the alternative of not requiring such agencies for the delivery of a program like this one.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, first regarding the hon. member's initial comments about investing in ways in Canada, that build inclusiveness, cohesiveness, adhesion and a sense of unity, it is appropriate to note that we live in a fair, decent, diverse and tolerant country, one that is the envy of much of the rest of the world. When we see events as they are unfolding at the moment in places like the Middle East and elsewhere, it indicates what a precious thing it is to have the capacity as we do to live together so successfully in our diversity, and we need to contribute to all of that. I support the sentiment he has expressed about the sponsorship program where it contributes to that kind of attitude.

The problems we are dealing with tonight are ones that existed in an old style program prior to the year 2000. Since 2000, we have been working hard to identify the problem areas and to make the necessary corrections. We have made progress. We have a way to go yet. We will certainly be examining delivery mechanisms that will improve upon the situation that existed in the past. Coming from Saskatchewan, the province next door to his, I always look for regional balance, regional equity, regional consistency and that will be one of the objectives for which I will strive.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, obviously all of us want to ensure that these matters are dealt with completely. I have only had a week and a day to get to know my new officials but I have no doubt that they are endeavouring in every way to be open, transparent and forthright. They very much want to be associated with program successes that are a credit to the department, to the government and to all Canadians. I believe they will do their very best to be completely forthcoming with the committee.

If some legal impediment stands in the way, I do not know of it. If there is one, I would be happy to look at it and see if there is a way it can be removed. My view at the moment, based on my very brief association with my very good officials, is that they will co-operate in every way to deal with the issues that are outstanding and improve things for the future.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, first, let me thank the hon. member for his kind words. I hope he and I and all other members of the House can work constructively to ensure that in the future some of the problems we are discussing tonight are avoided and that we can refer someone else's estimates to the committee of the whole so other ministers can enjoy this exciting phenomenon.

I would have to apply one caveat. In any matters that have been referred to police authorities,at this stage no charges have been laid and no findings have been concluded. We need to be careful when arriving at conclusions before police investigations, and in some cases before they have even been launched, have arrived at a result. In deference to the legal process, we need to be careful about that.

On the point about the arguments that need to be mustered about how best to change the administrative process, I will certainly be looking at a whole range of models for how we might do this in future. I would welcome the input of members of the House of Commons either individually or perhaps through the new committee on government operations and the estimates. That might be an appropriate vehicle. Let me just say that my door is open. If anyone has a good idea on how to do this better, I would be more than happy to have all the advice I can get.

[Supply, June 4th, 2002]

Mr. Chairman, as the hon. gentleman no doubt knows, the Francophonie games are a very large undertaking wherever they may be held in the world from time to time. In the case of the event that was held in Canada, the planning and preparation was spread over a number of years. In particular there was sponsorship activity over a two year period.

Given the nature of the event, I think it is fair to say that budgets and requirements change over time. This happens from time to time. It is not the normal case with every file, but in some cases, particularly when we are dealing with large international events, the budgetary requirements periodically change.