Bill C-36 (Historical)

Anti-terrorism Act

An Act to amend the Criminal Code, the Official Secrets Act, the Canada Evidence Act, the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) Act and other Acts, and to enact measures respecting the registration of charities in order to combat terrorism

Anti-terrorism Act

[Keith Martin, Canadian Alliance, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to compliment the member for Mount Royal on his eloquent interventions over the last month or so on the bill. They have been greatly appreciated by me and I am sure by many other members of the House as well as the public.

Bill C-36, the anti-terrorism act, seeks to amend a number of acts. This perhaps is the most important bill to have come before the House in the past 50 years. It is wide ranging and has a profound impact on the rights of Canadians, our sovereignty, access to information, transparency as well as a number of revenue issues. Each and every Canadian should be watching the bill very closely. It is a bill that deserves our outmost attention. The bill deserves to be debated at length and all questions pertaining it asked and answered.

Unfortunately the government took it upon itself to engage in closure. Of all the bills that have come to the House, this bill deserved closure the least because of its profound nature, because of the potential impact the bill could have on all Canadians and because of the need of Canadians from coast to coast to have their questions answered, which has not happened.

My party as well as the other opposition parties and indeed many government members have asked the government to put the brakes on the bill in terms of closure. We should have a longer debate, extend hours if we have to, but make sure the bill is debated thoroughly and that all questions are answered. That has not happened.

We are pleased that the government, although it defeated a supply day motion proposed by our party, did seek to include a number of suggestions in the bill. These include: the naming of all known international terrorist organizations operating in Canada; a complete ban on fundraising activities to support terrorism; the immediate ratification of the convention for the suppression of financing of terrorism; the creation of specific crimes for engaging in terrorist training and activities; and the extradition of foreign nationals charged with acts of terrorism. We can only compliment the government for supporting them.

I would say that the government has been tardy in the introduction of this bill. We knew full well that the country needed a proper anti-terrorism bill years ago. Indeed, we have been asking for one. Why did it take the events of September 11 for the government to suddenly put the gears of this institution in place and move forward on the bill? Why was it not done beforehand when we had more time? We could have extracted information from the best minds in the country to apply to the bill. It could have been a thoughtful bill, not a rushed one, a bill that would have been more effective.

As the member for Mount Royal said very eloquently, the bill lacks the appropriate oversight mechanisms that are essential given the powers that the bill gives to the government.

We have passed stage one in the war on terrorism. Stage one is what took place in Afghanistan. I submit that was the easiest part of the war on terrorism. The more difficult part is what is happening now. It involves how we root out and find those terrorists who have already situated themselves in other parts of the world, individuals who have proven by the events of September 11 that they are willing to kill themselves in an act of aggression against the west. How do we prevent those situations from happening again? How do we drain the swamp so that other individuals will not take that extreme step of wishing to kill themselves in pursuit of those acts which they believe in their hearts are for their cause?

Canada has an extraordinary opportunity to deal with part two, the most difficult aspect of the war on terrorism. Given the interactions, the memberships and the abilities many Canadians have, we as a country can build on the coalition that exists today to prevent a lot of these situations from happening.

We must deal with the issue of propaganda. Whether it is in Rwanda, Burundi, the former Yugoslavia or in Afghanistan, how they get a group of people to believe in these myths, particularly the terrorists, is that they are fed a steady diet of hateful, venal propaganda from the time they are small children until they are adults.

In time some of those individuals will take it upon themselves to engage in these extreme acts of terrorism. What we must do with our partners, and I underline the Muslim states in particular, is address, diffuse and ameliorate the propaganda and tell people the truth. We should not allow individuals to harbour and foment violence between one group and another. We must step in and diffuse it. If we allow this to happen, as we have seen time and again, we will be sowing the seeds of ethnic hatred and discontent, and ultimately bloodshed.

As I said before, we saw it in Yugoslavia in 1974. We saw it in Rwanda and in Afghanistan, and we will see it again in the future unless we prevent it. Our country has an opportunity to work with members of the coalition to do just that. Economically, we must also build bridges between members of the coalition.

A profound thing happened recently with the introduction of Russia as a decision making partner in NATO decisions. It was absolutely crucial to bring that country closer to the fold of the international neighbourhood. It enabled the potential threat of Russia to be diffused. Given its nuclear capabilities, we know the threat, while small, could be profound if it was ever acted upon.

Similar initiatives must take place with respect to Muslim nations. Cleavage patterns are taking place within those countries and I think we now have the opportunity to ask the moderate Muslim states to intervene with other less moderate states, like Iraq, Syria and elements working in the Palestinian controlled territory, such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad, to work with those groups, diffuse those groups and to build bridges between moderates and, if necessary, go after and neutralize those terrorist groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

If we allow these cancers to live within our midst, then not only are we a target for terrorist activities but we also poison the ability of the vast majority of individuals who want peace from living peaceful, normal, integrated lives and becoming members of the international community. We should strike while the iron is hot. We have that opportunity now but it will not last. The coalition exists to deal with the situation in Afghanistan. We must build upon it and we must do it now.

We have a great chance to work with the American government. Individuals within congress would like to see a more international approach to foreign affairs but they need to be encouraged. I think our parliament should set up a formal working group with members of the American congress to work on issues of bilateral and multilateral importance. The Americans have a great untapped wealth of potential that is not being used for multilateral purposes. As Canadians and as the closest allies of the Americans, we can, should and must work with the American congress in those areas.

Although phase one of the war against terrorism has been largely accomplished, the more difficult aspect of phase two is before us today. Canada can play a role in dealing with hateful propaganda that is pushed out by some groups by hunting down terrorists with our partners, by integrating international police and foreign services to work against terrorism and to build bilateral and multilateral economic initiatives between countries that have formerly been at odds with each other. It is very difficult to hate the person with whom one is sitting at the table and working on economic initiatives. It is up to us to forge those connections. I am sure we will be successful at doing that in the future.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on October 16, one day after the introduction of Bill C-36, I rose in the House to identify nine areas of civil libertarian concern. These concerns and related references subsequently found expression in witness testimony before the House of Commons justice and human rights committee, in parliamentary debate and within my own remarks inside and outside the House. Accordingly, I am pleased that six core concerns whose importance may not have been fully appreciated, particularly those that relate to matters of secrecy and disclosure, have found expression in amendments to the original bill which I would like to summarize as follows.

First, and as a matter of particular concern, the definition of a terrorist activity has been circumscribed to ensure that the focus is on the intended terrorist evil rather than the lawfulness or unlawfulness of the act which underpins it. Accordingly, the amendment seeks to ensure that any advocacy protest, dissent or work stoppage activity, even if unlawful, even if attended by violence, even if it causes disruption to an essential service, would not be considered a terrorist activity unless it is undertaken for a political, religious or ideological purpose and it is intended to cause death, serious bodily harm, endangerment of life or serious risk to health or safety and it intends to intimidate the public, or segment thereof, or coerce the government, et cetera to do or refrain from doing something. In a word, unless the violent criminal act committed includes these three requirements of intentionality and motivation, it could not be characterized as a terrorist activity.

Second, mens rea or guilty intention is a requirement for criminal responsibility for a terrorist offence, including the notion of facilitating a terrorist activity.

Third, the power of the attorney general to issue a certificate prohibiting disclosure of sensitive security related information was, prior to an amendment, an unfettered, unreviewable power. Now, after amendment, the certificate cannot be issued at any time but only after an order for disclosure in a legal process. The issuance of the certificate would not remain secret but would be published in the Canada Gazette . The certificate would not be unreviewable but subject to judicial review by a Federal Court of Appeal judge. The access to information and privacy acts would not be excluded but would still apply, as would the oversight by the privacy and information commissioners. The existing provisions for the collection, use and protection of information would be preserved.

Fourth, a non-discrimination provision has been included to ensure that political, religious, or ideological expression could not be converted into any form of terrorist activity so that visible minorities could not be singled out for differential and discriminatory treatment.

Fifth, there would be sunset provisions for two novel investigative and procedural mechanisms, the preventive arrest and judicial investigative hearings. Nor are these provisions themselves without internal safeguards. For example, in the matter of preventive arrests, this power can only be invoked if, and the following considerations have not always been appreciated, there are reasonable grounds to believe that a terrorist activity will be carried out and that imposing conditions or arrest is necessary to prevent the carrying out of the terrorist activity. The terrorist threat must be specific and involve a specific individual. The attorney general must consent to the arrest in all cases.

The detention after arrest must be subject to judicial review within 24 hours. In addition, the consent of the attorney general is required before a judge can be asked to impose supervisory conditions, or the release of a person, or detention for a longer period up to 72 hours.

Sixth would be the sunset clauses. I appreciate what has been mentioned in the House, particularly by members of the opposition, that they fall short of a full demise prior to subsequent parliamentary resolution. But they are only one prong, one aspect of a range of oversight mechanisms which include: the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms; international human rights norms, including in particular principles respecting the right to a fair trial; the annual report to parliament of the Minister of Justice and the Solicitor General of Canada and provincial ministers of police; an annual parliamentary oversight by Commons and Senate committees for purposes of public accountability; oversight by information and privacy commissioners; requisite authorization or consent by the Minister of Justice and an enhanced judicial capacity in relation to offences and investigatory mechanisms under the act; mandatory three year parliamentary review of the legislation; and sunset clauses whose demise or continuation will be assessed on the basis of the justice audit of this whole range of oversight mechanisms.

There are other oversight mechanisms which may not be in the bill but are part of the democratic framework of public accountability. I am referring to civilian complaint mechanisms and civilian oversight of police conduct and the sunshine focus of the media. There is also the role of parliamentarians inside and outside the parliamentary process; the role of human rights and non-governmental organizations; the role and representation of the professional bar and legal academe; and the role of visible minorities. There is also the institutionalized consultation, though not mentioned in the bill, between the Department of Justice and representatives of visible minorities to ensure their ongoing involvement and feedback regarding the enforcement and application of the act.

We have been focusing or concentrating on the sunset clauses, which standing alone are admittedly limited in their oversight. But we are losing sight of the whole range of oversight mechanisms, parliamentary and extraparliamentary, that together constitute a far more important sunshine process of democratic accountability.

We should not only be thinking in terms of sunset clauses, but more important, in terms of a sunshine process.

Computer Hackers

[The Speaker]

I declare the motion lost.

I wish to inform the House that because of the deferred recorded divisions government orders will be extended by an additional 49 minutes to which can be added the 30 minutes from this morning, so there will be a total extension of 79 minutes beyond 5.30 p.m.

I wish to clarify the manner in which we will proceed this afternoon for private members' business.

As hon. members are aware, government orders have been extended and the hour provided for private members' business scheduled for 5.30 p.m. has been delayed until 6 p.m. pursuant to Standing Order 67(1), the provisions regarding the debate on the motion for time allocation. We had a further delay because of the deferred divisions.

Later today private members' business may be subject to rescheduling due to the provisions of Standing Order 37. The Speaker is not able to anticipate how many divisions, if any, may take place on Bill C-36 at the end of government orders but I anticipate there might be some.

I want to inform hon. members that private members' hour will take place late tonight unless the recorded divisions at the end of government orders delay it by more than one and one half hours after the beginning of the votes. If members want to make other arrangements they can do so with consent.

Public Safety Act

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-36 has been in front of the House for days. There were 60 hours in committee. Dozens of witnesses appeared in front of the committee. We have come now to pass the bill.

I remember that the same people a few months ago were telling us that we were not going fast enough. Now there is a new flip-flop. The member tells us now that we are going too fast. He should make up his mind.

Anti-Terrorism Legislation

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we have just passed a new immigration act. It was studied for weeks on end by the House of Commons, and by House and Senate committees. It was passed and will help us to do something about the problem of bogus refugees.

We have introduced Bill C-36, which will be passed very soon by the House of Commons, and we have another bill before the House.

Naturally, with the problems mentioned, we want to combat terrorism but, at the same time, we must preserve Canadian values.

[Stockwell Day, Canadian Alliance, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, imagine any of the leaders of the 50 terrorist organizations that are known to be operating in Canada advising their fugitive agents where to hide. They would look at the tough laws in the United Kingdom, the United States and western Europe, they would read Bill C-36 and they would say “Come to Canada. You can still get in without documents, you can still be a member of your terrorist organization, you will probably never be extradited and you can mass-murder Canadians and still apply for parole”.

Why will the Liberals not finish the job with Bill C-36 and slam the door on terrorists trying to hide in Canada?

Anti-terrorism Act

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to the comments made by the hon. member for Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore. It strikes me that the New Democratic Party has not listened to Canadians on this issue in the same way it did not listen to Canadians on the issue of our military going to assist in Afghanistan.

The NDP claims to support the military. However it says the reason the military is going there is wrong. That is not supporting the military. It is undermining the confidence of military families and creating anxiety among those families which is uncalled for and inappropriate. It is time the NDP started to recognize that.

I wish to deal with the amendment before us at the moment which would add the following in clause 29:

In no such case shall a person be bound to secrecy for a period exceeding fifteen years, unless otherwise indicated by the deputy head.

Let us examine what the motion is really about. It is important to consider the kinds of secrets that are being considered and whether or not we ought to be allowing secrets of this kind to be opened up after 15 years. The motion would amend clause 29 wich defines a “person permanently bound to secrecy” as:

(a) a current or former member or employee of a department, division, branch or office of the public service of Canada, or any of its parts, set out in the schedule; or

(b) a person who has been personally served with a notice issued under subsection 10(1) in respect of the person or who has been informed, in accordance with regulations made under subsection 11(2), of the issuance of such a notice in respect of the person.

That is all a bit confusing. What makes it clearer is the kind of person it is talking about when it defines special operational information. It talks about a person who has offered or agreed to be:

--a confidential source of information, intelligence or assistance to the Government of Canada.

That person might be inside or outside Canada. We cannot be confident or absolutely sure that the person would not be in danger 15 years hence if the information were disclosed that the person had been a source of information. It is not a reasonable assumption to make. The next one is secrecy in relation to:

(b) the nature or content of plans of the Government of Canada for military operations in respect of a potential, imminent or present armed conflict.

This is suggesting that it is not necessary to keep those things secret for more than 15 years. These are important kinds of matters. A terrorist could look at information of this sort that was used by the military in doing its planning and look at the intelligence it gathered to determine where that information came from.

It is not always only the person's name that is the key. Sometimes it is the fact that the military or the government has certain information and when that becomes apparent suddenly the person who gave it to the government is apparent to terrorists. It is a matter of great importance that the information be maintained and kept secret. The third part is:

(c) the means that the Government of Canada used, uses or intends to use, or is capable of using, to covertly collect or obtain, or to decipher, assess, analyze, process, handle, report, communicate or otherwise deal with information or intelligence, including any vulnerabilities or limitations of those means.

This is the kind of information that can make individuals vulnerable. The last thing the government wants is to place people in danger who have given information that is important to our security. That is what this clause would do.

We heard a lot today from the opposition parties about the time allocation motion and their anxiety and frustration with the so-called undue haste of the government. It strikes me as a bit hypocritical to hear this from opposition members because what we heard from them for weeks after September 11 was why the government had not moved more quickly. There was great anxiety and there were constant demands in the House for the government to move swiftly. For example, I refer members of the House to the Debates of October 16 when the hon. member for Provencher said:

The government has taken some important steps. Although we will be considering the provisions of the bill very carefully, it is imperative that the legislation move forward as quickly as possible. I therefore thank members of the House for the increase in the number of hours for debate to raise concerns and move the matter along.

A few weeks ago opposition members were talking about how important it was to stand shoulder to shoulder with our allies. Now they are telling us to slow down and not be in such a hurry. One minute they are telling us to go fast and the next to slow down. They ought to get their act together, get their messages clear and stop flip-flopping about what their view is on this matter.

Let us talk some more about how much debate there has been. Bill C-36 was introduced and read a first time on October 15, 2001. Second reading with extended hours took place on October 16, October 17 and October 18. In addition there were numerous opposition day debates on the same topic.

We had continuous demands from the opposition for the government to act after the events of September 11. We had debate about what the government response could be. We had all kinds of opportunities to express our views on how the government could respond to those events and what measures could come forward in relation to terrorist activities.

The government brought forward measures. We had those debates at second reading. They were referred to the House justice committee on October 18. That committee held hearings on October 18, October 23, October 24, October 25, October 30 and even on Halloween, October 31. It held hearings on November 1, November 5, November 6, November 7, November 8 and November 20.

The Senate was studying the bill as well. The special committee held pre-study hearings on October 22, October 23, October 24 and October 29.

We have heard from Canadians and from our colleagues in all parties. We are now moving forward as Canadians demanded and as members of the opposition demanded over and over in the House earlier this fall.

The real question is how should the government respond to the events of September 11? Do we go on as if nothing ever happened or changed? We heard a lot of comments around that time that the world suddenly became more dangerous on September 11. It is important for us to recognize that is not accurate because it did not become more dangerous that day.

We became aware of how dangerous the world was and what things could be done. We became aware of the terrorists who were in our midst and what impact they could have if we did not have measures to deal with terrorism, if we were not alert.

In spite of our best efforts we must admit that there may be times when things will happen, terrorist attacks may occur that we have not been able to foresee or prevent. I recommend to all colleagues that these amendments be rejected.

[Rick Casson, Canadian Alliance, Lethbridge, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to the bill. It is unfortunate we are debating it under pressure and with the dark cloud of closure hanging over us.

Many of us never thought we would have to deal with this issue during this parliament or even during our lifetime, however, it is here and we have to deal with it and give it the best shot we can. Not being able to debate it fully and at length in this place in front of the Canadian public is wrong. To hurry it through and limit the amount of time each and every one of us has to speak to the bill is something which I hope Canadians will remember as being common practice for the government and when the time comes for reckoning, it will still be on their minds.

We do not take the bill lightly. A number of people came out to a recent town hall meeting in my riding of Lethbridge. This legislation was the topic of debate and of utmost concern in their minds. They want this terrorism legislation to be strong, fair and balanced but in the end, it must make Canadians not only feel safe and secure, but make them safe and secure here in Canada so they can go about their lives in a fashion that is appreciated and cherished in a free democracy.

The aftermath of September 11 has reached into every aspect of our lives. As parliamentarians we travel a lot and are certainly aware of that by the things we have to go through now to get on and off a plane or any means of public transportation. This is going to become a reality in our lives. I personally do not mind people going through my bags as long as they go through everyone's bags so that when we do get on a plane, we feel safe and secure.

This issue is the number one concern among Canadians. Many people have concerns with the legislation. Some want to soften it and some want to make it harder. It is important to find the proper balance to make it right. Every opportunity should be given to people to put forward their ideas on what should be done to the bill.

There is the issue of the definition of terrorism. On TV we saw somebody breaking a window at a McDonalds here in Ottawa a couple of weeks ago. Is that terrorism? Is somebody who is demonstrating and carrying a placard letting his or her views be known terrorism? The definition is something that has caused great concern and needs to be looked at.

What is the critical balance we must find? There are opposing views on almost every piece of legislation dealt with in the House. We are always trying to reach the middle. We in the opposition have different views than the government but it is the mix and balance we are looking for. We sometimes have trouble getting our point across. We put forward amendments that we would like to see put into legislation but sometimes they are not. Usually we can come to some kind of agreement. There is a lot in the bill that we support but there is also a lot that we do not support and that is why we have to bring our views forward.

Today I am bringing forward some of the views of my constituents that I heard at the town hall meeting. I have written them down and I have let the ministers responsible know how our people feel. Some of those concerns have been addressed. Having our constituents' voices heard through us, their elected representatives, is what democracy is all about. That is why I am here and why I choose to represent the people of my riding, as did all of our members. Having our voices stifled by closure is not the way to do things.

Most Canadians put their trust in what the government is doing and what we are doing as parliamentarians. They do not pay a lot of attention to what is going on here on a daily basis because they feel that we must be doing the right thing.

Some of the people who pay more attention to what goes on in this place on a day to day basis are really concerned that some of the trust they put in us and the government is being compromised, or that we cannot fully voice our opinion and debate the issues at hand.

Something which we feel is needed in the legislation is a review mechanism. That is one of the items in the Canadian Alliance platform. All policies, programs and legislation need to be reviewed on a regular basis to make sure they are appropriate for what they were initially intended to do. To make sure that the legislation is current, it should be brought up on a regular rotating basis for review.

The amendment we put forward would require the attorney general and solicitor general to look at what this legislation does. How it applies in one year or down the road in two to four years is important. We have to make sure that it gets reviewed on a regular basis.

Also, the investigations that occur under the power of the bill are of concern to many people. To be able to go back after a period of time and look at it to make sure the investigative powers are not being abused is important for Canadians.

We have also called for an independent review of the ministerial certificates issued to prohibit disclosure of information. The amendment mandated that the certificates be reviewed by a judge of the Federal Court of Appeal. That is very important. That aspect of it has laid to rest some of the concerns I have heard about the legislation.

With regard to the protection for certain religious and political groups, in the aftermath of September 11 we saw some instances where an entire group of people was singled out. We cannot have that. The acts on September 11 were perpetrated by terrorists; they were not done by any large group of people. They were criminals and they have to be treated in that way. The people of like beliefs around the world are not part of that group. We have to make sure that certain religious groups and political groups have protection under the legislation. We are glad to see that was addressed.

One of the things we wanted to see in the bill was not put in the bill. It is one of the deficiencies of Bill C-36 and something we will continue to fight for as we go through the albeit somewhat shortened process. We will still put forward our ideas. It is the whole idea that the bill fails to eliminate the possibility of parole for people who perpetrate terrorist acts.

In looking at what happened in the United States, there was mass murder on a unknown scale and it happened in a lightning flash. We need to treat terrorists in a very special way. They should not be eligible for parole after 25 years. Consecutive sentences and keeping people who have the potential for that kind of destruction away from the general population need to be addressed.

The bill does not make it illegal to be a member of a recognized terrorist organization, one that has met the burden of proof set out in the bill to be included in the list of entities. While the minister assures us that it is the activity that is of consequence, we feel that joining a terrorist organization has only one purpose and that is to participate in and facilitate terrorist acts.

We have seen cases in Canada where organizations exist to help raise funds to sponsor terrorist organizations. I for one support the notion that President Bush has put forward in the United States, that if a person is involved actively in terrorist activities, if someone houses, feeds, or raises funds for terrorists or allows them to be involved in someone's area in any way, that puts the person into the same category as the terrorist who blows up buildings.

It is important that we address all of those issues. There are some things in the bill that we appreciate and some that still need to be worked on. We will continue to force that issue here in the House of Commons.

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Mr. Speaker, since we had to vote on the gag order imposed upon us today, I would like to begin by telling you, speaking for myself, my party, and I believe the members of the opposition parties, that I am totally outraged.

Once again, for the 72nd or 73rd time—we are no longer sure of numbers—the Liberals are imposing a gag on us, after a history prior to 1993 of objecting to this approach, calling it the most undemocratic of parliamentary procedures for preventing the members of this parliament from expressing their views on various bills.

At the time, they accused the Conservatives in power of making abusive use of this parliamentary procedure. Yet they have now succeeded—maybe trying to get into the Guinness Book of Records —in beating the Conservatives' score by 100%, that is having twice as many gag orders.

I believe it is very important to remind all those who are listening to us or who will one day read the Debates of the House of Commons or those who are students of the “great democratic tendencies of the Liberal government”. They will be able to see how the government has gagged parliamentarians. Today, after a mere three hours of debate, if I am not mistaken, we are now being gagged and deprived of our right to express ourselves on this bill.

Perhaps the MPs could go before the supreme court and argue that this is contrary to the charter of rights and freedoms, restricting their freedom of expression. Who knows? But I am just joking about that, because it is one of the government's prerogatives to do so.

Motion No. 6 proposes, after line 14, to change permanently to 15 years in connection with secrecy and national security.

This amendment deserves our attention and deserves to be discussed, yet we have seen how the Liberals have dealt with amendments. The Bloc Quebecois proposed a number of amendments. Witnesses appeared before the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights and suggested several ways to amend the bill constructively. Yet, each time the government, which had said that it wanted to hear from opposition members and witnesses to improve the legislation, turned a deaf ear to the constructive criticism and recommendations that were made to improve the legislation. According to many editorialists and specialists in the field, the bill fails to meet the objectives it was designed to fulfill, that is, ensuring greater security and fighting terrorism while preserving the importance of the freedom and safety of Canadians and Quebecers.

This bill could have been improved thanks to the proposals made to the government. Many people believe that this type of bill is completely new,and that prior to September 11 no one had examined the issue of international terrorism, but this is wrong.

Several international conventions have been signed and ratified by the Canadian government. The government has signed 12 of the United Nations conventions and protocols on terrorism, and has ratified 10. Two still await ratification, but I will discuss them later.

Thanks to the anti-terrorism measures proposed, Canada could ratify the two final counter-terrorist conventions. Under the proposed bill, Canada could ratify the International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism, a convention that would freeze the assets of terrorists by preventing the use of assets belonging to a person who is involved in terrorist activity and by preventing assets and financial and related services from being made available to terrorists.

These measures enable a federal court judge to order the freezing and seizure of property used to support terrorist activities. We heard the Minister of Finance boast about having had a good idea—it happens, but not as often as he would have us believe—to fight money laundering and terrorist financing. All he had to do was sign the UN international convention and Canada would have had a convention to monitor and fight terrorist financing.

Another convention that could be ratified by Canada at the United Nations is the international convention for the suppression of terrorist bombings, which contains provisions on the targeting of places of public use, government facilities, infrastructures and transportation systems for attacks using explosives or other lethal devices, including chemical or biological agents.

Canada could also ratify the convention on the safety of United Nations and associated personnel, which seeks to ensure the safety of United Nations personnel.

I just mentioned two conventions that Canada signed but has yet to ratify. I will spare hon. members and not mention the other ten conventions against terrorism that Canada signed.

This bill must be based not only on the views of opposition members, but also on those of government members who, in committee, through the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, supported by the Secretary of State for the Status of Women, expressed their support for a true sunset clause.

These government and opposition members, as well as the experts who testified before the committee, tried to guide the government toward a more effective Bill C-36. Moreover, the public servants who drafted this legislation must or ought to have taken into consideration the various international conventions ratified or signed by Canada to deal specifically with counter-espionage.

This bill will amend a number of acts in Canada. Indeed, we are not dealing merely with Bill C-36. My colleagues, the hon. members for Berthier—Montcalm, Châteauguay and Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert clearly demonstrated that Canadian legislation as a whole will be affected by this bill.

The criminal code will be amended so as to include provisions for dismantling the activities of terrorist groups and incapacitating these groups and their supporters. The definition in the criminal code of terrorist activity as “an act that is committed in or outside Canada” makes it an offence under one of the ten UN conventions or protocols against terrorism.

What we see is that the government wants to implement a law in Canada which contravenes a convention signed or ratified by Canada with other countries. We must therefore be very careful.

Another of the laws which may or will be amended by the passage of Bill C-36 is the Official Secrets Act. It would be amended to cover national security concerns, including threats of espionage by foreign powers and terrorist groups, and coercive activities against communities in Canada.

Other laws will be affected by the implementation of Bill C-36. The Canada Evidence Act would be amended to include changes in court and other proceedings for the purpose of ensuring the protection of sensitive information, if need be.

The National Defence Act would also be amended to clarify the mandate of the Communications Security Establishment so that it could intercept communications directed at foreign entities and do security checks of the government's computer networks. The permission of the Minister of National Defence would be required to intercept any private communication.

I have tried to show that this is a piece of legislation which will have an impact on other legislation and many other international conventions.

The criminal code would also be amended so that any person with information relating to an ongoing investigation into a terrorist crime could be compelled to appear before a judge for the purpose of disclosing that information.

Other legislation could be amended, including the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) Act. This act could be amended in order to give powers to the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada. I have listed a few of the acts as well as some of the international conventions.

In conclusion, I wish to tell this government that while there is indeed a serious situation following the events of September 11, and while this situation calls for emergency measures, there is also an obligation to consult, to listen, as the minister said, and also to be willing to understand. Listening is one thing, but there must be a willingness to understand.

I believe that by voting in favour of the bill at second reading, we have shown very clearly that we wish to support it, but we are not going to support it at subsequent stages unless it is actually improved.

[Jay Hill, Canadian Alliance, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my comments on this group of amendments will be brief.

Obviously, with that rousing round of applause from the government members present, I am sure that they like me want to get on to the next group of amendments which were put forward by my colleague from Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough. I am sure they will listen very attentively when we get to Group No. 3 amendments and hopefully give them due consideration despite the limited time we have to deal with all the amendments, not just the group that is presently before the House.

On behalf of my constituents of Prince George--Peace River, I want to make a point regarding the seriousness of what took place this morning. It is not at all unusual that the government forces through time allocation on bill after bill. In fact one of the members from the NDP, who spoke immediately following the time allocation vote, made the very strong point that unfortunately this has become the rule not the exception, in the House.

I was present in the Chamber this morning after the motion was put forward, when we had a new process, for the first time, whereby the minister, who put forward a motion for time allocation, had to defend it to the House, although I did not get a chance to pose a question to the minister.

This is a new process and a great many members from all of the opposition parties wanted to be involved in posing questions to the minister about why she felt it imperative to bring forward time allocation after only one day of debate on perhaps one of the most comprehensive and incredibly complicated bills ever been brought before this place, certainly in the eight years I have been a member of parliament. The opposition only had 24 hours to consider the amended bill, which has far-reaching ramifications for civil liberties and the freedoms for which men and women have been called upon to fight and die for the life of Canada.

After a short half-hour debate regarding the time allocation motion, the Minister of Justice said that the opposition was stonewalling. Yet, after one day of debate, she brought forward time allocation to ram Bill C-36, the so-called terrorism act, through the House of Commons. That is appalling.

Canadians need to understand that while I believe all opposition parties support certain aspects of this bill, it is completely ridiculous to say that we are stonewalling the bill because we have some opposition to it. It is ridiculous that a minister of the crown, especially one holding such an important portfolio as the Minister of Justice, would make those types of allegations after only one day of debate on the amended bill.

Given all the concerns that have been expressed over the past number of days and weeks, from the access to information commissioner, from the privacy commissioner, from other highly placed individuals, from the Senate, about certain clauses and powers contained in this legislation--

[Art Hanger, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say how pleased I am to address the bill one more time but I am not at all happy, of course. Many members on the opposition side, and I would not doubt on the government side too if they would stand up and say it, agree that to put closure on this piece of legislation is not a wise thing to do. There is much more to be discussed yet. Given that, I am going to spend my time addressing some more points on the bill, which I think need to be addressed on the issue of resources.

For the last eight years in the House issues of security have always been of high interest to me, having come from a police background. Resources have always been a key point in getting any job done. The more thoroughly one wants the job to be done, the more boots on the ground are required to do it. Whether that is in intelligence gathering or investigation itself or even in the prosecution courts system, those are the areas where people are required to make things happen.

What concerns me not so much with the legislation but with the posturing on the government side is that the real issue has still not been addressed. We could have the best policies in the world. I for the most part do not disagree with much of what is here; there are some exceptions and my colleagues have addressed them quite adequately previously. We can have the best policy which looks really good on the books and even reads well but if we do not have the resources to make things happen, then that policy is all for naught.

Back in 1994 the issue for just about every enforcement agency, and here we are talking about enforcement again but I will throw defence into the mix, was the need for more manpower, resources and up to date equipment so the agencies could effectively do their jobs. That was the call in 1993 and 1994.

In the last four months I have taken trips not only to the border crossings in the country but also to an immigration office overseas. In speaking with some of my police colleagues and immigration enforcement officers, the message was far more urgent to resource the enforcement agencies than it was back in 1994. I cannot understand concentrating on this piece of legislation when it is resources that are going to make things work. In other words, let us put some money into it. Let us tighten up in the areas where it is not working.

If those two issues alone were looked after, if they alone were addressed by the government, I wonder how much legislation we would really need. What does it take to do intelligence gathering? If we have policy that restricts the use of the intelligence we have gathered, it is necessary to address that restriction. One example is shared information with our neighbours to the south. What are the inhibitors on this side of sharing information with them and what are their inhibitors that would prevent them from sharing information with us? To me, legislation for the most part does not come into play here. Or does it? If it does, it should be changed accordingly.

We can have these policies that address certain issues on terrorism and try to make an impact and make our country more secure, but for the most part the government has fallen far short of resourcing those particular agencies that need help. I am going to address some of those agencies, including the immigration offices.

When I was last in Vancouver, the immigration officers spoke of the need for 140 or 150 people right there at that time just to deal with the issues of increased security and processing of immigrants and refugees who came to those ports of entry in British Columbia. Maybe 140 or 150 does not sound like too many, but that is only one district. The minister has declared openly that she would supply 100 officers for the entire country, but technically that does not even fill the bill for the British Columbia district.

What will happen now? There is no question that with Bill C-36, Bill C-11, with the add-on of Bill C-42, which also has to do with immigration, the pressure will be on those frontline officers to deal with it. If they do not deal with it effectively, there will be a slipshod, haphazard job of security checks done on people coming into the country. Again, it is not because of the legislation per se, all of it, but because it is not being resourced. We are not bolstering up the manpower where it counts.

I will give one example. The immigration department alone, in the words of the immigration minister, presently has 27,000 applications that need security checks and security analysis. These cannot be done overnight. Immediately that puts a burden on immigration, on CSIS and so it should. The burden is undue given that both of those agencies are under-resourced. It also puts a burden on immigration enforcement. The enforcement section is already under-resourced.

There are 27,000 applicants now. On top of all of that, throw in another 20,000 claimants who have abandoned all claims. They have abandoned all claims of attempting to go through the refugee process. Where are those individuals? Who are those individuals? No one knows. No one has a clear indication of where or who those people are or if they belong to a questionable organization. It is an unknown factor.

There is much that can be done in dealing with issues such as these. This is a security issue and should be a priority for the government and for parliament. This gives me the opportunity to address those concerns which the government side is not addressing.

Having talked about immigration, I now turn to customs. The frontline officers are the first contact for individuals coming into Canada. They are the first contact, the front line. Their emphasis has always been on goods and services and the revenue generated as a result. It has not necessarily been on immigration. Although some of those officers do a fine job, their training is outside that whole realm. There is not a piece of legislation necessarily that could change that process and put the emphasis where it should be, again to further protect our country, to further protect those who have come here and those making their home in Canada. That is the situation.

The next agency that needs assistance is the RCMP. I am going to name CSIS as well. There is no question that between those two agencies right now the pressure is on our national police force, the RCMP, as well as CSIS, the intelligence gatherer, the analyzing agency that will disseminate much of what is found to other points and agencies in Canada.

The list could go on and on. It all comes back to the whole issue of resources. It is not so much the legislation, not so much the matter that we have another bill we can throw on the shelf and say that we did our job again. It is not that. It is where is the money and the resources to fund what we now claim to be the best piece of legislation going? That is my question to the government.

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise today to speak to Bill C-36. It is an important piece of legislation. Concerns have been expressed by many and I will dwell on them shortly. The bill is needed because it is important that we address the issue of how to combat terrorism. Canadians want the bill but they are apprehensive.

It is critically important that all Canadians have an opportunity to discuss the bill thoroughly, bring in amendments and allow debate to take place. It is important that Canadians do not feel apprehensive about the bill. After a thorough debate they should feel satisfied with the direction it is taking.

However today the government has invoked time allocation to stifle debate on the bill. Hundreds of Canadians have expressed concern about the issue. More and more Canadians are expressing concern because they have not had an opportunity to provide input into the bill.

We had an opportunity this morning to ask the Minister of Justice why she brought in time allocation. That is a good step toward reforming parliament. Time allocation used to come in and we never had an opportunity to ask the minister about it.

What was amazing was the response the Minister of Justice gave. She said there had been extensive consultations and that 13 hours of debate were held in committee. What is 13 hours of debate for a bill of this magnitude? Most of us in the House have not had an opportunity to speak. Colleagues of mine would like to speak to the bill as would colleagues from other parties. We want to express our concerns about what is right and what is wrong with the bill but we no longer have the opportunity.

The government has put time allocation on the bill, yet the minister stands proudly and says the government has had extensive consultations with hundreds of Canadians. The most amazing thing is that she said parliament has had a full debate on the issue since September 11.

As was pointed out to her, the bill is coming before us after all the amendments were done in committee. As parliamentarians we would like to be able to discuss the issue and look at the views of colleagues. That opportunity is being denied us by time allocation.

A lot of concerns are being expressed about the legislation, especially by visible minorities and immigrant communities. They want assurances that they will not be targets. While the intent of the bill is not to target anyone they need assurances that the bill will contain provisions to make sure their freedoms are not taken away or curtailed to some degree.

We have heard about incidents where bigots and others have targeted minorities. This is wrong and totally undesirable in Canada. As recently as last week I heard a report about Sikh truck drivers from Montreal who were subject to harassment because they have beards and wear turbans. This kind of thing must stop. These people are not part of terrorist groups. However it can only stop when we have the opportunity to debate and bring out these issues and say this is the wrong thing to do.

The government has invoked time allocation and stifled the debate. People will be apprehensive. For the bill to effectively fight terrorism it needs the support of all Canadians. We cannot have people sitting out there feeling apprehensive about the bill and not fully supporting it.

The bill is needed. It is required after September 11 to fight terrorism. We are fighting people who do not obey the laws, people whose own narrow view of life prompts them to disregard human life and curtail the freedom of others. The most important thing is that they do not respect the freedom of others.

The bill is needed to fight these guys so we can maintain our freedom. At the same time we cannot stand here and create a bill that makes a huge section of the Canadian community apprehensive because they figure somehow or other they could be subject to unnecessary harassment. That is the most necessary thing we must do here.

An important example is the incidents that happened in Montreal when Sikh truck drivers were harassed. That is absolutely wrong. I hope the Minister of Foreign Affairs will do something about the issue.

We find it amazing that we have had extensive committee hearings, a bill has gone through committee and come in here, and the first thing the government does is invoke time allocation. The amazing thing is that the Minister of Justice is saying our allies, the Americans and the British, did the same thing.

That is fine. Our allies also need to fight terrorism and they brought in their own bills, rightly so. However we need to discuss the issues in a Canadian context and take into account the Canadian environment. We have our own laws. Our society is slightly different from other societies. We need a thorough debate in the House so we can address the issues many are raising.

My colleagues on this side have expressed many concerns. They want to tighten the bill where they think it is lax. The bill will not achieve its objectives. That must be done not only in committee but in debate in the House. The hon. member for Calgary Centre said we need parliamentary oversight of the bill to see that it fulfills its mandate but does not take anyone's freedoms away.

The minister said to the right hon. member for Calgary Centre that parliament is the oversight for the bill. That is exactly what she said. Yet it is in this parliament that time allocation has been brought forward so we cannot debate. Perhaps she can explain how this works. One minute she is saying parliament is the watchdog over the bill and the next minute we cannot stand to talk about the bill because she brings in a time allocation order. Does this make sense? No, it definitely does not.

Sitting here and listening to the Minister of Justice give all the reasons she has brought in time allocation,I feel Canadians will have no confidence in the bill. There will always be a little apprehension. We as members of parliament must go out and talk to our constituents. They are telling us they have apprehensions or they feel the bill is flawed in certain areas. All that can be dealt only with when there is a thorough debate in parliament.

Perhaps the minister could open an emergency debate on the issue this evening, let it go all night and allow every member of parliament to speak and give their points of view. If amendments are needed we could debate them in the House because we can always improve on the bill. She could then can pass the bill in the normal course of business. Members of the Canadian Alliance have said they are supportive of the bill. I do not see what the problem would have been.

I am extremely disappointed at what has happened today with the move for time allocation. The government talks from both sides of its mouth. As parliamentarians we will be keeping a close eye on the bill.

[Robert Lanctôt, Bloc, Châteauguay, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would ask hon. members to reread my speech of yesterday on Bill C-36, if they can.

Today, we are dealing with the amendment on the Official Secrets Act. Will people be permanently bound to secrecy or, as proposed in the amendment, for a maximum of 15 years?

I will begin with the motion and, later on, I will discuss the issue in a general manner. We have no choice but to support the proposed motion, because it is the lesser of two evils. In a bill of such importance, we are forced to choose an amendment with which we are definitely not pleased, but which is not as bad as the alternative. It is with some reluctance that we will support this amendment.

We moved 66 amendments in the standing committee on justice. Out of that number, only one was accepted. That was done perfunctorily. The amendment simply added the term cemetery in the clause on hate propaganda. Imagine that.

We discussed very important issues, including the sunset clause. We talked about the definition, which was too broad. We provided examples, even after the amendment by the Minister of Justice. During that sitting of the committee, we were told that, yes, to use our examples, protesters could be deemed to be terrorists under such a clause, even duly amended. It is not because a clause is amended that the whole issue is settled.

Let us not forget that this clause on definitions includes several possibilities. There is a cumulative effect. In a number of places, including in paragraphs (d) and (c), protesters are included in the definition of terrorist activity.

This motion is important, but it is with some reluctance that I say so. The Bloc Quebecois could have brought forward many motions, but we saw what happened.

As I said, out of the 66 amendments moved by the Bloc Quebecois, only a minor one was accepted. One wonders how such a result can be arrived at.

It is a well-known fact that the Bloc Quebecois voted in favour of the bill at second reading because we were convinced in principle that we had to pass an anti-terrorism bill to make our fellow citizens feel more secure. However, we are not fools, and we are not blind. It does not take much imagination to see the scope of the powers granted under this bill. I am not just talking about the powers of the government in general, but about the powers of ministers, such as the Minister of Justice, the Attorney General of Canada and the Minister of National Defence, who will wield extreme power. This bill was supposed to be an exceptional series of provisions.

Beyond the exception, situations must be dealt with. Is there a balance between security and freedom? We worked on amendments to bring some balance to the bill. There is no balance in it. Amendments were put forward. The government put forward several amendments on the first day. The amendments were presented to us. I am a member of the standing committee on justice. The government amendments were presented to us at 4.15 p.m., between 4:15 and 5. Moreover, some were added as we moved along.

When I hear government members say that they had the time to look at the amendments, I must say there is something I do not understand.

As a lawyer, I have often wondered why the wording of acts is so imprecise, so vague and how it is that it can be interpreted in so many ways. Now we have the answer. I had the answer for the first time.

As a new MP and a lawyer sitting on the standing committee on justice, I have seen how it is done and I must say it is not just a matter of going over some things with a steamroller, but it is also that people do not understand these amendments. In this regard, I would have loved to put a few questions to the members who voted so recklessly. They accepted the government amendments but not the ones we had put forward and worked so hard on. We had worked hard to put forward sound amendments to strike a balance between security and freedom.

How can these members say today that they have studied the bill? How could they study the amendments? It was impossible except during the proceedings of the committee, which ended at 3 a.m.

You should have seen how quickly the vote was taken and how little time we had to look at each amendment and read it. Some amendments were several lines long and we only had three to four seconds to read them before we had to vote on material received at 4.15 p.m. We had a binder three to four inches thick full of amendments. How can we say that the impact of those amendments was considered?

Not only are we witnessing window dressing but things are being concealed in a bill of great importance. I am very disappointed with the kind of work done in committee. I was sure that through our involvement as members of parliament we would have a say. We tried to give these amendments serious consideration.

At one time, we were not even discussing the amendments. Those moved by the Bloc Quebecois, the New Democratic Party or the Progressive Conservative-Democratic Representative Coalition were all rejected. It was a charade.

I am disappointed as a citizen, as a lawyer, and most of all as a member of parliament. I thought we were seeking a balance between security and freedom. To enjoy freedom, however, we must maintain democracy, but this is not the way to build it.

What happened on September 11 was definitely a breach of democracy, but we are doing the same thing here in another way. What message are we sending to the rest of the world? This is but a facade: we keep hearing that ours is a democratic country, but it is completely false.

We would have liked to have a well thought out legislation that would have provided a balance between security and freedom. However, we are being deprived of any chance to ensure that this bill truly meets the expectations of Quebecers and Canadians.

When the government says that Canadians agree with what this bill is trying to do, that is completely false. In order to achieve that kind of balance, first the Minister of Justice would have had to do more than say “I will listen”. During oral question period in the House, she said “Yes, I am open to your ideas, I will listen. I will listen to the members, I will listen to the witnesses”.

More than 60 witnesses appeared before the committee, and it is not true to say that they were listened to. There was so little listening done that not even the Senate was not heard. The Senate put out a report that was not even followed by the government.

How are we supposed to take the government seriously? It cannot be taken seriously, and that is a problem. This is not simply about taking the government seriously; it is about our democracy, our institution known as the House of Commons, and the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. This is a complete stalling tactic, because the government is fooling people into believing that there was an opportunity for debate, but the debate took place before the bill was introduced in the House.

It gets worse. Yesterday was the first day of the report stage for the bill. After only three hours, notice was given that there would be a gag. Today, we voted on this motion. After only three hours of debate at report stage, a gag was ordered, not only for the report stage but also for third reading. It cannot get any more anti-democratic than that. It is really unbelievable.

I would like us to be really serious and examine the amendments. There is a problem when in committee we are told by senior officials and by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice that demonstrators such as those in Quebec City would fall into the definition of terrorists.

We cannot allow this government to run roughshod over democracy and freedom.

[Lynn Myers, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise to debate Group No. 2 in this very important Bill C-36.

As a member of the justice committee and as part of the process I must say that it was a long and arduous task in terms of the kinds of witnesses and groups that we heard from across Canada. Certainly we appreciated the calibre of their fine insights into this very important bill.

It seems to me that when we finally had the opportunity to review the clauses and take a look at the amendments being proposed from all sides, we had a very good opportunity to fully debate each and every one of the clauses. At the end of the day we were able to come together to present the bill that is now in the House at report stage.

It seems to me that we can take great heart in the fact that we listened to Canadians. We listened to people from all perspectives on the bill. I found it especially important that we did so through the lens of human rights and civil liberties, as well as national security. They were three important lenses for viewing the bill, and that is precisely what we did.

I was heartened to know and fully understand, as all members of the committee, who if they did not, should have, that the Minister of Justice wisely was able to take advice and come back in a way that brought the bill into even better sync with what Canadians value and believe is correct. That is really what we are here today to do. We are here to debate this further, to take a look at the fine amendments that have been brought forward and to move forward knowing that we have to put Bill C-36 in place because it is part and parcel of the anti-terrorism legislation that the government was very quick to introduce.

Now, having had a full debate, we are able to bring it to a conclusion. I think it is very important to move expeditiously at this point in keeping with the commitments we made not only to the Canadian people but to the wider international community as well.

I cannot emphasize enough that the Minister of Justice and this side of the House listened very closely to all people who presented. Specifically on Group No. 2 I think it is important to note that the motion being presented, while it is of interest and certainly worthy of note, cannot be supported. I will tell the House why.

The motion has to be rejected because a person permanently bound to secrecy is defined in subclause 8(1) of the Security of Information Act. We already know that. Furthermore, a person may become a person permanently bound to secrecy if the person is a current or former member or employee of a scheduled entity, or if designated by a deputy head and personally served with a notice to that effect. Those are important considerations in terms of where we are at specific to this motion. I should further add that the criteria for designating a person to be a person permanently bound to secrecy are twofold.

I am not telling the Speaker anything he does not know at this point. He knows that, first, the person has had or will have authorized access to special operational information and, second, it is in the interest of national security to designate the person.

Again it comes back to the lens of national security tempered with civil rights, human rights and the liberties that flow based on the charter of rights and freedoms. That is something that the committee took a long hard look at in terms of making sure we analyzed everything that we did consistent with the framework that we have taken as part of Canada's great value system, which is underscored by the charter of rights and freedoms.

I should further add that the new offences, specifically clauses 13 and 14 of the Seurity of Information Act, create a special regime for those persons who have privileged access to the most vital, special operational information and criminalizes on their part the unauthorized disclosure or purported disclosure of this narrow band of information going to the essence of Canada's national interest.

We need to ensure that is in place which is precisely what we have here. At the end of the day the national interest for Canada, the national security for Canada and the tools that enable us to maintain the national interest and national security is paramount. Canadians wherever they live in this great country understand that. They support the government knowing that the government is bringing forward these kinds of measures in the best interest of national security in a very meaningful way.

I should further add that the security and intelligence community has certain operational requirements that need to be fostered. These operational requirements include an ability to ensure secrecy and project to others that they have the ability to protect the information entrusted to them.

That too is fundamental to the gathering of intelligence, to ensure that peace officers and people who are involved in these kinds of processes are given the kinds of tools and legislative support, quite frankly, that enable them to do the job that is consistent with what we as a country under national security and for interest for Canada are able to give them and they are able to carry out and do.

We need to ensure that is the case, and we are doing that. I believe it is paramount that we carry on with this because it is what Canadians expect.

While I am on the point, I want to add that while the person is designated for life with respect to the motion in Group No. 2, the character of the information may change. The definition, for example of special operational information makes clear that it is information that the Government of Canada is taking measures to safeguard from disclosure.

There again that too underscores the commitment of our government to ensure the right processes are put in place to make sure we do the right thing to enable our people to gather that kind of information and not have to disclose it, to make sure that it is done properly and consistent with the charter and all the safeguards that Canadians take for granted in this very important area.

I want to take a moment to talk a bit about some of the concerns that were raised at the committee with respect to unlawful strikes and protests that could qualify as terrorist activity. That was a repeated theme.

The definition of terrorism, as we have now made it to be, as it was from the outset, and refined, and, more to the point, terrorist activity related to the disruption of essential service, was changed at the committee, as I said, fine tuned, to delete the word “lawful”. This will ensure that protest activity, whether lawful or unlawful, will not be considered a terrorist activity unless the activity was intended to cause death, serious bodily harm, endangerment of life or serious risk to the health and safety of the public.

We listened very closely to those people who ensured that they got their points across on this very important matter. The Prime Minister and the Minister of Justice made it very clear at the outset that the committee had its work cut out for it. The committee was to do its job. It was to listen very closely, carefully and consistently to witnesses who came in good faith and presented their testimony. That is precisely what it did. As a result we were able to bring forward amendments that reflected the representations made by individuals and groups. We did so consistent with the civil liberties, human rights and national security projections that we wanted to ensure were always there and we were able to do it consistent with what I believe are the great values of this country, including the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Another concern that was expressed was that expressing a political, religious or ideological belief could constitute a terrorist activity. For some people that was a very real thing. I want to take great pains right now to say that is simply not the case.

In order to make it absolutely clear, the government proposed an amendment in committee to add an interpretative clause to the bill. The clause states for greater clarity and certainty that an expression of political, religious or ideological beliefs alone is not a terrorist activity unless it is part of a larger conduct that meets all the requirements of the definition of terrorist activity.

What I am saying is that we at the committee listened to the witnesses and listened to people who brought forward very good ideas. We changed accordingly to make sure that at the end of the day this would be the best bill possible, and I can guarantee that it is.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Yes, Mr. Speaker, I do. I apologize if my speech wandered from the actual substance of Group No. 2, which I understand is a motion by the Alliance member for an amendment to limit the secrecy provisions for individuals working for a security agency to a maximum of 15 years. I was planning on getting around to that issue, but in framing the context of those criticisms or pointing out the shortcomings of the bill, I found it necessary to also point out some of the other shortcomings on behalf of the Canadian people.

We in our party feel that this is perhaps the most significant issue that we have dealt with since I became a member of parliament in 1997. No other bill has had the potential to have such a dramatic effect on the way we live as Canadians as Bill C-36 does. I think it is easy to understand the level and degree of interest. The number of letters, cards and phone calls that we are getting at our constituency offices is overwhelming.

The bill has captured the imagination of Canadians, partly because of the sheer horror of September 11, partly because of our very real desire to feel more secure in our own homes and our own country and partly because of the expectation Canadians have that our government will introduce meaningful legislation that will make us feel more secure about the fact that it is doing its job. As the Minister of Justice has pointed out, the primary obligation of the government is to deal with the security of Canadians. We are being challenged with that right now.

Therefore, we are finding ourselves faced with Bill C-36, this broad, sweeping piece of legislation, which will in fact change the way we live and the way that Canadians view themselves as a nation and as a people. We are finding ourselves limited in the amount of debate we can have. Even though those of us on the opposition benches have co-operated extensively to put forward meaningful amendments, we are finding that the ruling party, which did imply that it would listen to and entertain amendments, is in fact using closure to shut this down and move this bill forward even though, I believe, the bill has not matured or has not been thought through to the point that it should be.

I know that early on in the debate on Bill C-36 a recommendation was made because we know the bill will be challenged in the Supreme Court. The recommendation was that we should submit the substance of the bill to the court and ask for a ruling ahead of time or that we should do it in conjunction and have two parallel paths so that we would be debating the bill in the House of Commons and at the same time the courts could be ruling on whether or not there would be an acceptable challenge to the bill. Frankly, that would have served Canadians well. It would have been an expedited form of introducing the type of protection Canadians expect.

However, the government chose not to listen to that good advice. It was sound counsel. It was the member for Winnipeg--Transcona who asked directly why we could not have a dual, parallel path on the bill because it is of such importance. It is too important to play politics with. That is the opinion of the NDP caucus at least. We have discussed this in our caucus meetings. We do not seek to play politics with Bill C-36 because we are all concerned. Canadians are concerned. It is a disservice to Canadians to actually grind this thing down into one of those exchanges we have seen so many times.

I am glad to be able to speak to Group No. 2 of these motions. I understand that the amendment being sought by the member from the Canadian Alliance would limit the secrecy provisions on individuals working for security agencies to a maximum of 15 years. This seems like a worthy provision. It is obviously a thoughtful, heartfelt position taken by the member from the Alliance. I would hope that there would be flexibility on the part of government, if it is serious in moving forward with Bill C-36, to at least entertain the legitimate concerns brought forward, not just by the members of the opposition benches but by the many people who have made presentations at committee.

I know that the committee sat until three o'clock in the morning recently dealing with this. There is no question about the sincerity and the level of interest expressed on the government side and on the opposition benches. We realize how necessary the bill is. Canadians do as well and are coming to us asking for some satisfaction.

We found it necessary to speak against Bill C-36. I believe we are the only caucus in the House of Commons and the only political party that has actually voted against Bill C-36 at all the stages up to this point, although I understand the Bloc Quebecois has reservations about the bill as well.

We are not comfortable at this point. We would like to be able to say that we support the intent of the government to ensure the security of Canadians by tightening up bills and legislation in the aftermath of September 11. The NDP caucus would like nothing more than to be able to say we are acting in response to the legitimate concerns of Canadians, but we cannot support the bill at this time nor can we support the heavy handed actions of the government to limit debate at this time. Canadians are still following the debate with great interest and great concern. I am sure most Canadians are disappointed to see the House leader for the Liberal Party stand up and once again move closure on an issue of great national interest and concern.

We have heard questions and debate on the bill from virtually all the opposition parties, which are challenging the government with the legitimate questions that do arise when we infringe on civil liberties. To what extent should we infringe on them? For how long should we infringe on them?

Even though we are speaking today to Group No. 2 and the motion dealing with the secrecy provisions, we have to focus on the bigger picture. The bill in itself is so flawed that I do not believe any of the opposition parties can in all good conscience vote for it.

With regret, we are finding ourselves debating with a gun to our heads again because time allocation has been invoked. I do not believe that quality decision making can come from that process. I do not believe in the Stockholm syndrome, for instance, where people are thrown into a room and not allowed out until they come to a resolution. I do not believe that process would result in a quality piece of legislation. However, that is the position we find ourselves in again today.

It is with regret that we are critical of the government on this issue. It should be a non-partisan issue. Canadians would like to think we can all agree on this particular issue. The motions put forward by the opposition parties are worthy. They have merit and they deserve to be introduced into the bill so that we could adopt the bill unanimously. We do not sense that will be possible.