Bill C-36 (Historical)

Anti-terrorism Act

An Act to amend the Criminal Code, the Official Secrets Act, the Canada Evidence Act, the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) Act and other Acts, and to enact measures respecting the registration of charities in order to combat terrorism

Anti-terrorism Act

[Jay Hill, Canadian Alliance, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my comments on this group of amendments will be brief.

Obviously, with that rousing round of applause from the government members present, I am sure that they like me want to get on to the next group of amendments which were put forward by my colleague from Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough. I am sure they will listen very attentively when we get to Group No. 3 amendments and hopefully give them due consideration despite the limited time we have to deal with all the amendments, not just the group that is presently before the House.

On behalf of my constituents of Prince George--Peace River, I want to make a point regarding the seriousness of what took place this morning. It is not at all unusual that the government forces through time allocation on bill after bill. In fact one of the members from the NDP, who spoke immediately following the time allocation vote, made the very strong point that unfortunately this has become the rule not the exception, in the House.

I was present in the Chamber this morning after the motion was put forward, when we had a new process, for the first time, whereby the minister, who put forward a motion for time allocation, had to defend it to the House, although I did not get a chance to pose a question to the minister.

This is a new process and a great many members from all of the opposition parties wanted to be involved in posing questions to the minister about why she felt it imperative to bring forward time allocation after only one day of debate on perhaps one of the most comprehensive and incredibly complicated bills ever been brought before this place, certainly in the eight years I have been a member of parliament. The opposition only had 24 hours to consider the amended bill, which has far-reaching ramifications for civil liberties and the freedoms for which men and women have been called upon to fight and die for the life of Canada.

After a short half-hour debate regarding the time allocation motion, the Minister of Justice said that the opposition was stonewalling. Yet, after one day of debate, she brought forward time allocation to ram Bill C-36, the so-called terrorism act, through the House of Commons. That is appalling.

Canadians need to understand that while I believe all opposition parties support certain aspects of this bill, it is completely ridiculous to say that we are stonewalling the bill because we have some opposition to it. It is ridiculous that a minister of the crown, especially one holding such an important portfolio as the Minister of Justice, would make those types of allegations after only one day of debate on the amended bill.

Given all the concerns that have been expressed over the past number of days and weeks, from the access to information commissioner, from the privacy commissioner, from other highly placed individuals, from the Senate, about certain clauses and powers contained in this legislation--

[Art Hanger, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say how pleased I am to address the bill one more time but I am not at all happy, of course. Many members on the opposition side, and I would not doubt on the government side too if they would stand up and say it, agree that to put closure on this piece of legislation is not a wise thing to do. There is much more to be discussed yet. Given that, I am going to spend my time addressing some more points on the bill, which I think need to be addressed on the issue of resources.

For the last eight years in the House issues of security have always been of high interest to me, having come from a police background. Resources have always been a key point in getting any job done. The more thoroughly one wants the job to be done, the more boots on the ground are required to do it. Whether that is in intelligence gathering or investigation itself or even in the prosecution courts system, those are the areas where people are required to make things happen.

What concerns me not so much with the legislation but with the posturing on the government side is that the real issue has still not been addressed. We could have the best policies in the world. I for the most part do not disagree with much of what is here; there are some exceptions and my colleagues have addressed them quite adequately previously. We can have the best policy which looks really good on the books and even reads well but if we do not have the resources to make things happen, then that policy is all for naught.

Back in 1994 the issue for just about every enforcement agency, and here we are talking about enforcement again but I will throw defence into the mix, was the need for more manpower, resources and up to date equipment so the agencies could effectively do their jobs. That was the call in 1993 and 1994.

In the last four months I have taken trips not only to the border crossings in the country but also to an immigration office overseas. In speaking with some of my police colleagues and immigration enforcement officers, the message was far more urgent to resource the enforcement agencies than it was back in 1994. I cannot understand concentrating on this piece of legislation when it is resources that are going to make things work. In other words, let us put some money into it. Let us tighten up in the areas where it is not working.

If those two issues alone were looked after, if they alone were addressed by the government, I wonder how much legislation we would really need. What does it take to do intelligence gathering? If we have policy that restricts the use of the intelligence we have gathered, it is necessary to address that restriction. One example is shared information with our neighbours to the south. What are the inhibitors on this side of sharing information with them and what are their inhibitors that would prevent them from sharing information with us? To me, legislation for the most part does not come into play here. Or does it? If it does, it should be changed accordingly.

We can have these policies that address certain issues on terrorism and try to make an impact and make our country more secure, but for the most part the government has fallen far short of resourcing those particular agencies that need help. I am going to address some of those agencies, including the immigration offices.

When I was last in Vancouver, the immigration officers spoke of the need for 140 or 150 people right there at that time just to deal with the issues of increased security and processing of immigrants and refugees who came to those ports of entry in British Columbia. Maybe 140 or 150 does not sound like too many, but that is only one district. The minister has declared openly that she would supply 100 officers for the entire country, but technically that does not even fill the bill for the British Columbia district.

What will happen now? There is no question that with Bill C-36, Bill C-11, with the add-on of Bill C-42, which also has to do with immigration, the pressure will be on those frontline officers to deal with it. If they do not deal with it effectively, there will be a slipshod, haphazard job of security checks done on people coming into the country. Again, it is not because of the legislation per se, all of it, but because it is not being resourced. We are not bolstering up the manpower where it counts.

I will give one example. The immigration department alone, in the words of the immigration minister, presently has 27,000 applications that need security checks and security analysis. These cannot be done overnight. Immediately that puts a burden on immigration, on CSIS and so it should. The burden is undue given that both of those agencies are under-resourced. It also puts a burden on immigration enforcement. The enforcement section is already under-resourced.

There are 27,000 applicants now. On top of all of that, throw in another 20,000 claimants who have abandoned all claims. They have abandoned all claims of attempting to go through the refugee process. Where are those individuals? Who are those individuals? No one knows. No one has a clear indication of where or who those people are or if they belong to a questionable organization. It is an unknown factor.

There is much that can be done in dealing with issues such as these. This is a security issue and should be a priority for the government and for parliament. This gives me the opportunity to address those concerns which the government side is not addressing.

Having talked about immigration, I now turn to customs. The frontline officers are the first contact for individuals coming into Canada. They are the first contact, the front line. Their emphasis has always been on goods and services and the revenue generated as a result. It has not necessarily been on immigration. Although some of those officers do a fine job, their training is outside that whole realm. There is not a piece of legislation necessarily that could change that process and put the emphasis where it should be, again to further protect our country, to further protect those who have come here and those making their home in Canada. That is the situation.

The next agency that needs assistance is the RCMP. I am going to name CSIS as well. There is no question that between those two agencies right now the pressure is on our national police force, the RCMP, as well as CSIS, the intelligence gatherer, the analyzing agency that will disseminate much of what is found to other points and agencies in Canada.

The list could go on and on. It all comes back to the whole issue of resources. It is not so much the legislation, not so much the matter that we have another bill we can throw on the shelf and say that we did our job again. It is not that. It is where is the money and the resources to fund what we now claim to be the best piece of legislation going? That is my question to the government.

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise today to speak to Bill C-36. It is an important piece of legislation. Concerns have been expressed by many and I will dwell on them shortly. The bill is needed because it is important that we address the issue of how to combat terrorism. Canadians want the bill but they are apprehensive.

It is critically important that all Canadians have an opportunity to discuss the bill thoroughly, bring in amendments and allow debate to take place. It is important that Canadians do not feel apprehensive about the bill. After a thorough debate they should feel satisfied with the direction it is taking.

However today the government has invoked time allocation to stifle debate on the bill. Hundreds of Canadians have expressed concern about the issue. More and more Canadians are expressing concern because they have not had an opportunity to provide input into the bill.

We had an opportunity this morning to ask the Minister of Justice why she brought in time allocation. That is a good step toward reforming parliament. Time allocation used to come in and we never had an opportunity to ask the minister about it.

What was amazing was the response the Minister of Justice gave. She said there had been extensive consultations and that 13 hours of debate were held in committee. What is 13 hours of debate for a bill of this magnitude? Most of us in the House have not had an opportunity to speak. Colleagues of mine would like to speak to the bill as would colleagues from other parties. We want to express our concerns about what is right and what is wrong with the bill but we no longer have the opportunity.

The government has put time allocation on the bill, yet the minister stands proudly and says the government has had extensive consultations with hundreds of Canadians. The most amazing thing is that she said parliament has had a full debate on the issue since September 11.

As was pointed out to her, the bill is coming before us after all the amendments were done in committee. As parliamentarians we would like to be able to discuss the issue and look at the views of colleagues. That opportunity is being denied us by time allocation.

A lot of concerns are being expressed about the legislation, especially by visible minorities and immigrant communities. They want assurances that they will not be targets. While the intent of the bill is not to target anyone they need assurances that the bill will contain provisions to make sure their freedoms are not taken away or curtailed to some degree.

We have heard about incidents where bigots and others have targeted minorities. This is wrong and totally undesirable in Canada. As recently as last week I heard a report about Sikh truck drivers from Montreal who were subject to harassment because they have beards and wear turbans. This kind of thing must stop. These people are not part of terrorist groups. However it can only stop when we have the opportunity to debate and bring out these issues and say this is the wrong thing to do.

The government has invoked time allocation and stifled the debate. People will be apprehensive. For the bill to effectively fight terrorism it needs the support of all Canadians. We cannot have people sitting out there feeling apprehensive about the bill and not fully supporting it.

The bill is needed. It is required after September 11 to fight terrorism. We are fighting people who do not obey the laws, people whose own narrow view of life prompts them to disregard human life and curtail the freedom of others. The most important thing is that they do not respect the freedom of others.

The bill is needed to fight these guys so we can maintain our freedom. At the same time we cannot stand here and create a bill that makes a huge section of the Canadian community apprehensive because they figure somehow or other they could be subject to unnecessary harassment. That is the most necessary thing we must do here.

An important example is the incidents that happened in Montreal when Sikh truck drivers were harassed. That is absolutely wrong. I hope the Minister of Foreign Affairs will do something about the issue.

We find it amazing that we have had extensive committee hearings, a bill has gone through committee and come in here, and the first thing the government does is invoke time allocation. The amazing thing is that the Minister of Justice is saying our allies, the Americans and the British, did the same thing.

That is fine. Our allies also need to fight terrorism and they brought in their own bills, rightly so. However we need to discuss the issues in a Canadian context and take into account the Canadian environment. We have our own laws. Our society is slightly different from other societies. We need a thorough debate in the House so we can address the issues many are raising.

My colleagues on this side have expressed many concerns. They want to tighten the bill where they think it is lax. The bill will not achieve its objectives. That must be done not only in committee but in debate in the House. The hon. member for Calgary Centre said we need parliamentary oversight of the bill to see that it fulfills its mandate but does not take anyone's freedoms away.

The minister said to the right hon. member for Calgary Centre that parliament is the oversight for the bill. That is exactly what she said. Yet it is in this parliament that time allocation has been brought forward so we cannot debate. Perhaps she can explain how this works. One minute she is saying parliament is the watchdog over the bill and the next minute we cannot stand to talk about the bill because she brings in a time allocation order. Does this make sense? No, it definitely does not.

Sitting here and listening to the Minister of Justice give all the reasons she has brought in time allocation,I feel Canadians will have no confidence in the bill. There will always be a little apprehension. We as members of parliament must go out and talk to our constituents. They are telling us they have apprehensions or they feel the bill is flawed in certain areas. All that can be dealt only with when there is a thorough debate in parliament.

Perhaps the minister could open an emergency debate on the issue this evening, let it go all night and allow every member of parliament to speak and give their points of view. If amendments are needed we could debate them in the House because we can always improve on the bill. She could then can pass the bill in the normal course of business. Members of the Canadian Alliance have said they are supportive of the bill. I do not see what the problem would have been.

I am extremely disappointed at what has happened today with the move for time allocation. The government talks from both sides of its mouth. As parliamentarians we will be keeping a close eye on the bill.

[Robert Lanctôt, Bloc, Châteauguay, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would ask hon. members to reread my speech of yesterday on Bill C-36, if they can.

Today, we are dealing with the amendment on the Official Secrets Act. Will people be permanently bound to secrecy or, as proposed in the amendment, for a maximum of 15 years?

I will begin with the motion and, later on, I will discuss the issue in a general manner. We have no choice but to support the proposed motion, because it is the lesser of two evils. In a bill of such importance, we are forced to choose an amendment with which we are definitely not pleased, but which is not as bad as the alternative. It is with some reluctance that we will support this amendment.

We moved 66 amendments in the standing committee on justice. Out of that number, only one was accepted. That was done perfunctorily. The amendment simply added the term cemetery in the clause on hate propaganda. Imagine that.

We discussed very important issues, including the sunset clause. We talked about the definition, which was too broad. We provided examples, even after the amendment by the Minister of Justice. During that sitting of the committee, we were told that, yes, to use our examples, protesters could be deemed to be terrorists under such a clause, even duly amended. It is not because a clause is amended that the whole issue is settled.

Let us not forget that this clause on definitions includes several possibilities. There is a cumulative effect. In a number of places, including in paragraphs (d) and (c), protesters are included in the definition of terrorist activity.

This motion is important, but it is with some reluctance that I say so. The Bloc Quebecois could have brought forward many motions, but we saw what happened.

As I said, out of the 66 amendments moved by the Bloc Quebecois, only a minor one was accepted. One wonders how such a result can be arrived at.

It is a well-known fact that the Bloc Quebecois voted in favour of the bill at second reading because we were convinced in principle that we had to pass an anti-terrorism bill to make our fellow citizens feel more secure. However, we are not fools, and we are not blind. It does not take much imagination to see the scope of the powers granted under this bill. I am not just talking about the powers of the government in general, but about the powers of ministers, such as the Minister of Justice, the Attorney General of Canada and the Minister of National Defence, who will wield extreme power. This bill was supposed to be an exceptional series of provisions.

Beyond the exception, situations must be dealt with. Is there a balance between security and freedom? We worked on amendments to bring some balance to the bill. There is no balance in it. Amendments were put forward. The government put forward several amendments on the first day. The amendments were presented to us. I am a member of the standing committee on justice. The government amendments were presented to us at 4.15 p.m., between 4:15 and 5. Moreover, some were added as we moved along.

When I hear government members say that they had the time to look at the amendments, I must say there is something I do not understand.

As a lawyer, I have often wondered why the wording of acts is so imprecise, so vague and how it is that it can be interpreted in so many ways. Now we have the answer. I had the answer for the first time.

As a new MP and a lawyer sitting on the standing committee on justice, I have seen how it is done and I must say it is not just a matter of going over some things with a steamroller, but it is also that people do not understand these amendments. In this regard, I would have loved to put a few questions to the members who voted so recklessly. They accepted the government amendments but not the ones we had put forward and worked so hard on. We had worked hard to put forward sound amendments to strike a balance between security and freedom.

How can these members say today that they have studied the bill? How could they study the amendments? It was impossible except during the proceedings of the committee, which ended at 3 a.m.

You should have seen how quickly the vote was taken and how little time we had to look at each amendment and read it. Some amendments were several lines long and we only had three to four seconds to read them before we had to vote on material received at 4.15 p.m. We had a binder three to four inches thick full of amendments. How can we say that the impact of those amendments was considered?

Not only are we witnessing window dressing but things are being concealed in a bill of great importance. I am very disappointed with the kind of work done in committee. I was sure that through our involvement as members of parliament we would have a say. We tried to give these amendments serious consideration.

At one time, we were not even discussing the amendments. Those moved by the Bloc Quebecois, the New Democratic Party or the Progressive Conservative-Democratic Representative Coalition were all rejected. It was a charade.

I am disappointed as a citizen, as a lawyer, and most of all as a member of parliament. I thought we were seeking a balance between security and freedom. To enjoy freedom, however, we must maintain democracy, but this is not the way to build it.

What happened on September 11 was definitely a breach of democracy, but we are doing the same thing here in another way. What message are we sending to the rest of the world? This is but a facade: we keep hearing that ours is a democratic country, but it is completely false.

We would have liked to have a well thought out legislation that would have provided a balance between security and freedom. However, we are being deprived of any chance to ensure that this bill truly meets the expectations of Quebecers and Canadians.

When the government says that Canadians agree with what this bill is trying to do, that is completely false. In order to achieve that kind of balance, first the Minister of Justice would have had to do more than say “I will listen”. During oral question period in the House, she said “Yes, I am open to your ideas, I will listen. I will listen to the members, I will listen to the witnesses”.

More than 60 witnesses appeared before the committee, and it is not true to say that they were listened to. There was so little listening done that not even the Senate was not heard. The Senate put out a report that was not even followed by the government.

How are we supposed to take the government seriously? It cannot be taken seriously, and that is a problem. This is not simply about taking the government seriously; it is about our democracy, our institution known as the House of Commons, and the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. This is a complete stalling tactic, because the government is fooling people into believing that there was an opportunity for debate, but the debate took place before the bill was introduced in the House.

It gets worse. Yesterday was the first day of the report stage for the bill. After only three hours, notice was given that there would be a gag. Today, we voted on this motion. After only three hours of debate at report stage, a gag was ordered, not only for the report stage but also for third reading. It cannot get any more anti-democratic than that. It is really unbelievable.

I would like us to be really serious and examine the amendments. There is a problem when in committee we are told by senior officials and by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice that demonstrators such as those in Quebec City would fall into the definition of terrorists.

We cannot allow this government to run roughshod over democracy and freedom.

[Lynn Myers, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise to debate Group No. 2 in this very important Bill C-36.

As a member of the justice committee and as part of the process I must say that it was a long and arduous task in terms of the kinds of witnesses and groups that we heard from across Canada. Certainly we appreciated the calibre of their fine insights into this very important bill.

It seems to me that when we finally had the opportunity to review the clauses and take a look at the amendments being proposed from all sides, we had a very good opportunity to fully debate each and every one of the clauses. At the end of the day we were able to come together to present the bill that is now in the House at report stage.

It seems to me that we can take great heart in the fact that we listened to Canadians. We listened to people from all perspectives on the bill. I found it especially important that we did so through the lens of human rights and civil liberties, as well as national security. They were three important lenses for viewing the bill, and that is precisely what we did.

I was heartened to know and fully understand, as all members of the committee, who if they did not, should have, that the Minister of Justice wisely was able to take advice and come back in a way that brought the bill into even better sync with what Canadians value and believe is correct. That is really what we are here today to do. We are here to debate this further, to take a look at the fine amendments that have been brought forward and to move forward knowing that we have to put Bill C-36 in place because it is part and parcel of the anti-terrorism legislation that the government was very quick to introduce.

Now, having had a full debate, we are able to bring it to a conclusion. I think it is very important to move expeditiously at this point in keeping with the commitments we made not only to the Canadian people but to the wider international community as well.

I cannot emphasize enough that the Minister of Justice and this side of the House listened very closely to all people who presented. Specifically on Group No. 2 I think it is important to note that the motion being presented, while it is of interest and certainly worthy of note, cannot be supported. I will tell the House why.

The motion has to be rejected because a person permanently bound to secrecy is defined in subclause 8(1) of the Security of Information Act. We already know that. Furthermore, a person may become a person permanently bound to secrecy if the person is a current or former member or employee of a scheduled entity, or if designated by a deputy head and personally served with a notice to that effect. Those are important considerations in terms of where we are at specific to this motion. I should further add that the criteria for designating a person to be a person permanently bound to secrecy are twofold.

I am not telling the Speaker anything he does not know at this point. He knows that, first, the person has had or will have authorized access to special operational information and, second, it is in the interest of national security to designate the person.

Again it comes back to the lens of national security tempered with civil rights, human rights and the liberties that flow based on the charter of rights and freedoms. That is something that the committee took a long hard look at in terms of making sure we analyzed everything that we did consistent with the framework that we have taken as part of Canada's great value system, which is underscored by the charter of rights and freedoms.

I should further add that the new offences, specifically clauses 13 and 14 of the Seurity of Information Act, create a special regime for those persons who have privileged access to the most vital, special operational information and criminalizes on their part the unauthorized disclosure or purported disclosure of this narrow band of information going to the essence of Canada's national interest.

We need to ensure that is in place which is precisely what we have here. At the end of the day the national interest for Canada, the national security for Canada and the tools that enable us to maintain the national interest and national security is paramount. Canadians wherever they live in this great country understand that. They support the government knowing that the government is bringing forward these kinds of measures in the best interest of national security in a very meaningful way.

I should further add that the security and intelligence community has certain operational requirements that need to be fostered. These operational requirements include an ability to ensure secrecy and project to others that they have the ability to protect the information entrusted to them.

That too is fundamental to the gathering of intelligence, to ensure that peace officers and people who are involved in these kinds of processes are given the kinds of tools and legislative support, quite frankly, that enable them to do the job that is consistent with what we as a country under national security and for interest for Canada are able to give them and they are able to carry out and do.

We need to ensure that is the case, and we are doing that. I believe it is paramount that we carry on with this because it is what Canadians expect.

While I am on the point, I want to add that while the person is designated for life with respect to the motion in Group No. 2, the character of the information may change. The definition, for example of special operational information makes clear that it is information that the Government of Canada is taking measures to safeguard from disclosure.

There again that too underscores the commitment of our government to ensure the right processes are put in place to make sure we do the right thing to enable our people to gather that kind of information and not have to disclose it, to make sure that it is done properly and consistent with the charter and all the safeguards that Canadians take for granted in this very important area.

I want to take a moment to talk a bit about some of the concerns that were raised at the committee with respect to unlawful strikes and protests that could qualify as terrorist activity. That was a repeated theme.

The definition of terrorism, as we have now made it to be, as it was from the outset, and refined, and, more to the point, terrorist activity related to the disruption of essential service, was changed at the committee, as I said, fine tuned, to delete the word “lawful”. This will ensure that protest activity, whether lawful or unlawful, will not be considered a terrorist activity unless the activity was intended to cause death, serious bodily harm, endangerment of life or serious risk to the health and safety of the public.

We listened very closely to those people who ensured that they got their points across on this very important matter. The Prime Minister and the Minister of Justice made it very clear at the outset that the committee had its work cut out for it. The committee was to do its job. It was to listen very closely, carefully and consistently to witnesses who came in good faith and presented their testimony. That is precisely what it did. As a result we were able to bring forward amendments that reflected the representations made by individuals and groups. We did so consistent with the civil liberties, human rights and national security projections that we wanted to ensure were always there and we were able to do it consistent with what I believe are the great values of this country, including the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Another concern that was expressed was that expressing a political, religious or ideological belief could constitute a terrorist activity. For some people that was a very real thing. I want to take great pains right now to say that is simply not the case.

In order to make it absolutely clear, the government proposed an amendment in committee to add an interpretative clause to the bill. The clause states for greater clarity and certainty that an expression of political, religious or ideological beliefs alone is not a terrorist activity unless it is part of a larger conduct that meets all the requirements of the definition of terrorist activity.

What I am saying is that we at the committee listened to the witnesses and listened to people who brought forward very good ideas. We changed accordingly to make sure that at the end of the day this would be the best bill possible, and I can guarantee that it is.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Yes, Mr. Speaker, I do. I apologize if my speech wandered from the actual substance of Group No. 2, which I understand is a motion by the Alliance member for an amendment to limit the secrecy provisions for individuals working for a security agency to a maximum of 15 years. I was planning on getting around to that issue, but in framing the context of those criticisms or pointing out the shortcomings of the bill, I found it necessary to also point out some of the other shortcomings on behalf of the Canadian people.

We in our party feel that this is perhaps the most significant issue that we have dealt with since I became a member of parliament in 1997. No other bill has had the potential to have such a dramatic effect on the way we live as Canadians as Bill C-36 does. I think it is easy to understand the level and degree of interest. The number of letters, cards and phone calls that we are getting at our constituency offices is overwhelming.

The bill has captured the imagination of Canadians, partly because of the sheer horror of September 11, partly because of our very real desire to feel more secure in our own homes and our own country and partly because of the expectation Canadians have that our government will introduce meaningful legislation that will make us feel more secure about the fact that it is doing its job. As the Minister of Justice has pointed out, the primary obligation of the government is to deal with the security of Canadians. We are being challenged with that right now.

Therefore, we are finding ourselves faced with Bill C-36, this broad, sweeping piece of legislation, which will in fact change the way we live and the way that Canadians view themselves as a nation and as a people. We are finding ourselves limited in the amount of debate we can have. Even though those of us on the opposition benches have co-operated extensively to put forward meaningful amendments, we are finding that the ruling party, which did imply that it would listen to and entertain amendments, is in fact using closure to shut this down and move this bill forward even though, I believe, the bill has not matured or has not been thought through to the point that it should be.

I know that early on in the debate on Bill C-36 a recommendation was made because we know the bill will be challenged in the Supreme Court. The recommendation was that we should submit the substance of the bill to the court and ask for a ruling ahead of time or that we should do it in conjunction and have two parallel paths so that we would be debating the bill in the House of Commons and at the same time the courts could be ruling on whether or not there would be an acceptable challenge to the bill. Frankly, that would have served Canadians well. It would have been an expedited form of introducing the type of protection Canadians expect.

However, the government chose not to listen to that good advice. It was sound counsel. It was the member for Winnipeg--Transcona who asked directly why we could not have a dual, parallel path on the bill because it is of such importance. It is too important to play politics with. That is the opinion of the NDP caucus at least. We have discussed this in our caucus meetings. We do not seek to play politics with Bill C-36 because we are all concerned. Canadians are concerned. It is a disservice to Canadians to actually grind this thing down into one of those exchanges we have seen so many times.

I am glad to be able to speak to Group No. 2 of these motions. I understand that the amendment being sought by the member from the Canadian Alliance would limit the secrecy provisions on individuals working for security agencies to a maximum of 15 years. This seems like a worthy provision. It is obviously a thoughtful, heartfelt position taken by the member from the Alliance. I would hope that there would be flexibility on the part of government, if it is serious in moving forward with Bill C-36, to at least entertain the legitimate concerns brought forward, not just by the members of the opposition benches but by the many people who have made presentations at committee.

I know that the committee sat until three o'clock in the morning recently dealing with this. There is no question about the sincerity and the level of interest expressed on the government side and on the opposition benches. We realize how necessary the bill is. Canadians do as well and are coming to us asking for some satisfaction.

We found it necessary to speak against Bill C-36. I believe we are the only caucus in the House of Commons and the only political party that has actually voted against Bill C-36 at all the stages up to this point, although I understand the Bloc Quebecois has reservations about the bill as well.

We are not comfortable at this point. We would like to be able to say that we support the intent of the government to ensure the security of Canadians by tightening up bills and legislation in the aftermath of September 11. The NDP caucus would like nothing more than to be able to say we are acting in response to the legitimate concerns of Canadians, but we cannot support the bill at this time nor can we support the heavy handed actions of the government to limit debate at this time. Canadians are still following the debate with great interest and great concern. I am sure most Canadians are disappointed to see the House leader for the Liberal Party stand up and once again move closure on an issue of great national interest and concern.

We have heard questions and debate on the bill from virtually all the opposition parties, which are challenging the government with the legitimate questions that do arise when we infringe on civil liberties. To what extent should we infringe on them? For how long should we infringe on them?

Even though we are speaking today to Group No. 2 and the motion dealing with the secrecy provisions, we have to focus on the bigger picture. The bill in itself is so flawed that I do not believe any of the opposition parties can in all good conscience vote for it.

With regret, we are finding ourselves debating with a gun to our heads again because time allocation has been invoked. I do not believe that quality decision making can come from that process. I do not believe in the Stockholm syndrome, for instance, where people are thrown into a room and not allowed out until they come to a resolution. I do not believe that process would result in a quality piece of legislation. However, that is the position we find ourselves in again today.

It is with regret that we are critical of the government on this issue. It should be a non-partisan issue. Canadians would like to think we can all agree on this particular issue. The motions put forward by the opposition parties are worthy. They have merit and they deserve to be introduced into the bill so that we could adopt the bill unanimously. We do not sense that will be possible.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am glad to take this opportunity to join the debate on Bill C-36 and Group No. 2 of the amendments that were put forward.

I would like to preface my remarks by voicing my concern as well. Since I have been a member of parliament in the House of Commons, closure has become the norm rather than the exception. Every single time we get a contentious piece of legislation the fact that the government moves so quickly to stifle and limit debate has become, since I have been in this political life, the norm rather than the exception. I condemn that in the most forceful way possible.

We are happy to be able to support the amendments in this group of motions. We believe that the opposition parties were unanimous in their condemnation of Bill C-36 and unanimous in the thoughtful presentation of meaningful amendments. There was a sincere spirit of co-operation in our efforts to make Bill C-36 a more enforceable and more meaningful piece of legislation, to make it something that would in fact have the desired results and still not compromise those things that Canadians feel very strongly about.

We are comfortable that the motions in this group of amendments would have improved the bill, but we are critical of the Minister of Justice, who gave every indication that she would in fact entertain meaningful amendments. In virtually every press conference or public comment she gave she was trying to give the impression to the Canadian public that she would entertain meaningful amendments if they were presented in the proper spirit of improving the bill. Yet what we saw ultimately was absolutely no flexibility on the real substance of the bill. I can point to the most obvious and glaring issue, which is the idea of the sunset clause.

Virtually every presenter that came before the committee demanded that there be a sunset clause provision in the bill in order to assure Canadians that the move to trivialize or minimize their civil rights would not be a permanent thing in the country, that the bill was meant to deal with an emergency that was a real and present danger, and that Canadians wanted to feel secure in their own country but not at the cost of giving up civil liberties. The sunset clause is the most glaring example of the intransigence on the part of the Liberal Party, the ruling party, in listening to the concerns brought before the committee.

There is not a sunset clause in any meaningful definition, as we understand it. The member for Winnipeg--Transcona said it is a sunset clause like June in the Yukon. That is about as sunsetting as it gets. It might reach dusk, but it certainly is not what we understand to be a sunset clause.

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Edmonton West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I was referring to parliamentary oversight of the operation of the legislation. Ample opportunity for parliamentary oversight and other forms of oversight is built into Bill C-36.

The vast majority of Canadians expect the government to act to protect their safety and security. Canadians have participated in the debate. They have watched the debate. All of us in our individual ridings have heard from Canadians. It is now time to act.

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Edmonton West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, nothing could be further from the truth. It is too bad the hon. member could not have been present last Wednesday morning at our caucus where there was complete support for Bill C-36 and the amendments that were made.

The purpose of time allocation is to ensure that the government discharges its obligation in relation to the safety and security of Canadians. There has been much debate. It is now time for action.

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Edmonton West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I hope the hon. member is not suggesting that he would deprive, for example, accused persons and their counsel the right, if they wish to take that right, to challenge a section of any federal or provincial law that is germane to the cause at issue. I hope the hon. member is not suggesting that somehow he wants to restrict the right of Canadians to challenge the constitutionality of legislation, be it Bill C-36 or any other legislation.

We have reviewed the legislation in detail. It has gone through the most intense scrutiny in terms of whether or not it is consistent with the charter of rights and freedoms. We believe that this law is consistent.

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Edmonton West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we have standing committees of the House of Commons and the Senate. Those committees represent in part the essence of the strength of our parliamentary democracy. Committee members spend hours talking and studying among themselves as well as hearing from witnesses.

The reality is that Bill C-36 includes many aspects of parliamentary oversight, be it in parliamentary committees such as the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights or the Senate committee, the privacy commissioner or access commissioner, the federal court or provincial courts or by calling ministers under the legislation. Our obligation is to report on an annual basis. It is the right of committees to call those ministers before them and to question those ministers in detail.

However, at the end of the day parliamentary oversight is provided by the men and women who sit on the floor of the House and who sit on standing committees where ministers could be called to defend that which they have done.

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, as the minister well knows, the reality is that since the bill was amended some hundred times in minor ways by the government there has been less than one day's debate on the amended final bill.

Moreover, the minister knows that through a parliamentary trick that held documents back from members of parliament who were out of town it was not possible over the weekend for more than a handful of members in the opposition to present amendments to this very serious bill. She would also know that the Senate reported explicitly:

The bill provides for a parliamentary review of the operation of the act within three years. The Senate would want to satisfy itself that any review is rigorous and sufficient. It will be important for parliament and Canadians at large to be kept informed about the way in which the powers in Bill C-36 are used.

This was ignored entirely by the government as it ignored most of the recommendations of the Senate.

My question is specifically about a parliamentary oversight provision. We all know that the world changed on September 11 and that there needs to be a response to terror. One of the ways in which that change has to be reflected is to ensure that members of the House of Commons, whose responsibility it is to report to the people of the country, have some opportunity to know that a minister is not--

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Edmonton West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, as I said, there has been an exceptional amount of debate, both in the House at second reading and at committee, in relation to the legislation. As my parliamentary secretary reminds me, there were even emergency debates following the tragic events of September 11.

Committee members obviously had the opportunity for some days to reflect upon amendments that they would propose and that we have proposed. It was a week ago that I was at committee proposing amendments that the government put forward to improve the legislation, all of which in some part were based upon what we heard before committee.

Now is the time to move forward. Canadians expect their government to act to ensure their security and safety. Our allies around the world are moving and it would be irresponsible for us, as a government, not to move. A government's primary obligation is first and foremost to ensure the safety and security of its people.

What we are doing in Bill C-36, and subsequently in Bill C-42, is putting in place the legal and operational infrastructure necessary to provide Canadians with that degree of safety and security that permits them to get on with their lives.

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Edmonton West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, on the hon. member's point in relation to time, let me just remind the hon. member and everyone here that Bill C-36 has had extensive debate in the House of Commons. We had almost 13 hours of debate over a three day period on October 16, 17 and 18, at second reading, including an extension of hours on October 16.

The House committee on justice and human rights as well as the special Senate committee on Bill C-36 have thoroughly studied the bill. The House committee heard from over 60 witnesses over a three week period. I think this kind of intensive study by committee is something quite unusual. The special Senate committee also put in place a procedure, a pre-study plan, to ensure that the House committee, the government and I could be informed of the issues in and around the legislation.

Report stage began yesterday. There were over five hours of debate. Unfortunately, when it became clear to the government House leader that opposition members would not co-operate in the expeditious passage of this legislation after this extensive consideration, the government House leader moved time allocation.

We have heard especially from the official opposition. I could quote the hon. member for Provencher, who said the following on October 16 “After years of inaction and denial the light finally went on over there”.

We are acting to protect the safety and security of Canadians. It is too bad that the opposition could not act with us--

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will be brief. First, as a result of our questions in the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, we have learned that there is no indication at the present time that Canada could be a terrorist target. This is one thing that must not be lost sight of.

Also, a scant 72 hours after Bill C-36 was tabled, in this very place I questioned the Minister of Justice on certain provisions of the criminal code. She answered that the criminal code contained everything necessary to fight organized crime effectively. I remember very well that she even ridiculed the Canadian Alliance's desire for anti-terrorism legislation.

Suddenly, we learn that the Minister of Justice has hurriedly drafted a bill. It is tabled, then rushed through committee. Witnesses told us that they did not even have 48 hours to prepare, to properly study the bill.

Then the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights sat until three in the morning to study it clause by clause and push it through. The minister tabled amendments on the spot, out of the blue one might say, ones the Liberals had not even seen and which they blindly passed.

Today, they are putting a gag on us at the report stage, the 72nd one this government has imposed.

My question is a simple one: given the exceptional nature of this bill, given that individual and collective rights and freedoms are being wiped off the map by the Liberals, regardless of the minister's claimed desire to hear what the taxpayers had to say—which she obviously did not do, nor did she heed the Senate—where is the urgency to once again rush things and not at least listen to what the people's elected representatives have to say on a bill such as this?