Bill C-7 (Historical)

Youth Criminal Justice Act

An Act in respect of criminal justice for young persons and to amend and repeal other Acts

Youth Criminal Justice Act

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

moved:

Motion No. 2

That Bill C-7, in Clause 125, be amended by replacing line 4 on page 129 with the following:

“services to young persons shall disclose to any”

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have an opportunity to speak to the amendment which, given the length, breadth, width and complexity of the legislation, would classify as an improvement.

Without getting into a full debate on the merits of the bill itself, the amendment would in essence change but one word in the legislation. I know the Minister of Justice is very interested in the amendment and I know she would not want to miss my comments on how to improve her own bill. The amendment would change the word “may” to “shall”. It would make it obligatory for the justice system, mainly the courts, upon making a finding, to mandatorily inform the school boards, that is, to give them relevant information that could be used in a very productive and, in some instances, protective way to enhance the rehabilitation of a student and, perhaps equally if not more important, other students and those in the educational community.

The amendment has the important backing and blessing of those who are most affected, short of the students, which is the teachers themselves. The Canadian School Boards Association, the Canadian Teachers' Federation and the Canadian Association of School Administrators have all expressed their unanimous support and their desire for the amendment to take place in the current youth criminal justice act.

They, among a plethora of other representatives who wished to have input in the drafting of the bill, were denied the opportunity to appear before the committee. They were denied the opportunity to have input into Bill C-7 prior to it being introduced in the House, as they were on the previous bill, Bill C-68. They were not given the opportunity to speak to the specifics as to why the amendment was necessary. I am pleased to have the opportunity to give members the opportunity to put their thoughts on the record.

One of the justice minister's justifications for not permitting or for not endorsing changing of the word “may” to “shall” was that it would impinge upon a young person's privacy or confidentiality with respect to having been involved in the criminal justice system.

Without being too dismissive, I do not believe that is a relevant response. Teachers routinely and as a matter of course in their profession deal discreetly with sensitive information. As part of their own ethics, as a school teacher and as a person working within the system, they are required to positively enhance a young person's life. To say that this would somehow jeopardize the privacy and the sensitive information about a young person trivializes what an important role teachers play in the development of our youth. It is akin to not giving doctors all the relevant information they need to make a diagnosis.

Allowing the courts to transfer relevant information to teachers for a specific purpose would allow teachers to provide the necessary attention to young people in order to help enhance their rehabilitation and to ensure that when they go back into the school system their specific needs will be addressed. It would also recognize that if a young person had been involved in a violent act or if the act itself involved aggression toward other students, a teacher or property, it would allow the teacher to have all of the information when approaching that child. The teacher could take into consideration the child's education, the education of other students in the classroom and other students with whom the young person might come in contact.

The amendment is very straightforward. It should not require a great deal of consternation on the part of the department or the minister herself. It is one that has broad support among the teaching community and the education systems, the ones which would be most effected.

The youth in question are already protected by other sections of existing legislation, namely the Young Offenders Act, and by virtue of confidentiality sections that are contained in the current bill. It is still a criminal offence to disseminate or use information about a young person's conviction or the terms thereof for a non-specified purpose. This would specify that it would only be used for the purpose of informing schools, principals and teachers. Therefore, to suggest that it would perpetrate a stigmatization of a young person or cause a young person's privacy to be jeopardized or brought into question is simply incorrect.

I submit to the House that the amendment, if it is supported and passed, would enhance legislation that is drastically in need of improvement. It is a complex and cumbersome bill. Those who were allowed to appear before the justice committee indicated that it was unworkable and that it would be extremely costly and impossible to administer by those in the provinces who would have the task to do so.

The amendment would have a profound effect by changing one word. It would make it mandatory for the youth court system to share information about a young person with teachers and school boards. It would significantly enhance the ability of the schools to do their work in conjunction with the criminal justice system. Sharing of information for a specific purpose has its merit. It is something that those who have worked in the justice system or those who have been teachers will be quick to embrace.

I look forward to hearing what other members have to say about the amendment. It is one I urge them to support.

Surely it is repetitive to say that if we can make a positive change or a positive impact on the bill, we should be very quick to do so. The law enforcement community is supportive of the legislation as well.

We know that teachers are much like police in the sense that they are on the frontlines. They are dealing most directly and in a most concentrated way with young persons. It therefore stands to reason that they should be given the information, the support and the backup to carry out their very important duties.

Once again I will put on record the words of Marie Pierce, executive director of the Canadian School Boards Association. She said that inconsistencies in the way information is relayed to school boards could pose a serious threat.

Her comments specifically suggested that lack of information could in some cases cause a serious problem. I illustrated by an earlier example that if a young person has a propensity for violence and has been convicted of a violent offence, it is common sense to suggest that the school board, the teacher and in some instances the principal of the school should know about it so they can act accordingly.

Marilies Rettig, president of the Canadian Teachers' Federation, said justice officials were misguided if they were concerned about the confidentiality of a student's past. She said:

There is no reason to deny us access to information we need to work effectively with justice officials in helping offenders while fulfilling our commitment to all students.

It is about the greater good. It is about ensuring that the community is protected but that the efforts of teachers do not in any way infringe upon privacy concerns. It is specifically aimed at helping students and ensuring that a person in their class does not interfere with the education of others or put others at risk in terms of safety.

The amendment addresses just that. It addresses safety concerns in the classroom. It specifically touches upon the sharing of information in a specific and protected way to give teachers a better ability to know the student, to know the background of the person who is in part the focus of their daily existence. The teacher is in many cases trying to focus on what is wrong in the young person's life outside what takes place in the classroom.

This type of information sharing in specific instances would be addressed effectively and specifically by support for the amendment, the changing of one word. I hope that in their wisdom members of the House, and particularly those on the government side, will also support the amendment.

[Ghislain Lebel, Bloc, Chambly, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to take part in this debate, although I had not intended to, and to say that in the opinion of all Quebecers there is absolutely no comparison between this bill and the act that now applies in Quebec.

The hon. member for Rivière-des-Mille-Îles said, and it was well put, that the current legislation in Quebec is designed to promote reintegration of young offenders into society. One can make all sorts of mistakes in life but in Quebec we believe in reintegration. We believe that the sometimes tragic mistakes of youth do happen, and I agree.

Recently in my riding five young people killed an 81 year old woman after breaking into her home. Obviously such a crime does not leave us indifferent in Quebec. It affects all of us. I am especially affected for it happened in my riding, in the beautiful city of Chambly that I have represented in this House since 1993. I admit it has affected the whole community. The crime was despicable if not downright heinous.

However society should not seek revenge. Society must manage our legal system, our criminal justice system, and ban terrible acts like the one I have mentioned. It is not there to seek revenge. The penalty for seeking revenge is very heavy.

Having a young person who made a mistake at age 14, 15 or 16 years of age dealt with by adult court and sentenced to 5, 8, 10 or 15 years in prison, under the rules applying to adults, to hardened criminals, is in fact, as the hon. member for Rivière-des-Milles-Îles was saying, sending that young person to a university for crime.

All young people are seeking to find themselves, whether they are young people who have made a mistake or students trying to choose a career. Sadly, in this quest for a future, for good and evil, some are doomed to failure. The social environment has a major impact. The famous Dr. Mailloux would speak of “maternal deprivation”, a concept that has been greatly overworked. For my part, I do not believe in it. In many cases, we are just dealing with a single mistake.

This is no reason to turn them into hardened criminals, to send them to adult prison where they will complete their education as criminals. We can bet a hundred to one that those young people who live through this situation, who are sentenced and treated like hardened criminals will, in 10, 12 or 15 years, at the end of their sentence, be a bit older, old enough to look for work, since we are asking for their reintegration into society.

In their resumes, they must indicate that they spent 10 years at Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines or 12 at Kingston or Port-Cartier. What employers would take such a risk? They do not know who they are dealing with. They will not hire these youths, even if they are deeply repentant and have chosen to live a respectable life on all accounts. If we do not want to give them a chance and to reintegrate them into society, what option have they got? Once again, they will turn to crime and we will have repeat offenders.

In Quebec, crime is not praised, crime is not forgiven indiscriminately. We try to guide youths, under close supervision, toward specific goals. Psychiatric evaluations are done. There are also tests similar to those applied to young students looking for a goal in life. We supervise and help young offenders. We say “You are good at this. You can complete your post-secondary education. Go for it, the state is behind you.” We are not out for revenge.

After a few years of training, the youth often gets a diploma, which does not mention where he learned and which is delivered by an authorized educational institution. The youth has then been reintegrated into society. The success rate is absolutely convincing. In Quebec, it is beyond all expectations.

All those involved in the fight against crime in Quebec, including the Quebec bar association, are unanimous in saying that the provincial law is in itself a success. The rehabilitation rate is well above what any legislator might have imagined, even in his wildest dreams.

Now the federal justice minister has come up with her infamous Bill C-7 to try to please western Canada and get the support that has eluded her so far and will continue to elude her. In the end, this bill is only an indication of the revenge some members in this House are looking for. Whatever it takes, whatever needs to be done, they are out for revenge. But it is not up to society or the government to meet these kinds of expectations and to seek revenge.

The role of the government is to build a good relationship between its citizens and to create sustainable peace within its borders. I know from personal experience that members of a political party do not always agree but we learn to cope and to accept our differences of opinions. The same thing goes for society.

With her infamous Bill C-7, the Minister of Justice is sending the following message “We no longer believe in social rehabilitation. Young offenders will be criminals their whole lives”. This is not true.

Whether we are young or not so young, we have all made our share of mistakes and blunders. A few years ago, we found out, shortly after an election that a respected member of this House, who had been elected in a riding in the heart of Montreal, had made a rather huge mistake when he was young. He had committed armed robbery when he was 18.

What was done to that man was terrible. Twenty years after committing the offence, he was truly rehabilitated, as evidenced by the fact that he was elected to represent a large segment of the population. His political career was destroyed because of his past. Such things must never be allowed to happen again. We must be able to support our youth, guide them, accompany them, supervise them and make sure they stay on the right path.

That is what Bill C-7 introduced by the Minister of Justice does not do. I know, Mr. Speaker, that you are not allowed to take part in this debate, but if you could, I am sure you would agree with me.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is with great sadness that I rise today.

I am saddened by the attitude of the government for the umpteenth time, if not the 69th, 70th, 72nd or 75th time, is gagging the opposition. This morning a time allocation motion was agreed to. It is always a little sad to see the government refuse to listen or have an indepth debate on a bill.

If the Bloc Quebecois has been so steadfast in its opposition to the bill it is not for the mere pleasure of playing its role as an opposition party. Everyone has certainly noticed how relentlessly and how hard my colleague for Berthier-Montcalm has being working on this for the past year and a half or two years. I take this opportunity to acknowledge his perseverance and the unique work he has been doing on this bill. My colleague has travelled across the province of Quebec. He has met with various people. He has discussed the bill with every stakeholder in Quebec, bar none.

Once again, we have compelling arguments but the justice minister refuses to hear them. The current Young Offenders Act has been in force in Quebec for close to 30 years. So far, it has been successful because it has been properly implemented. The government should ensure that the act is correctly enforced in the rest of Canada instead of trying, as the minister is doing, to go along with a far right trend coming mostly from western Canada.

I understand that being from the west she is trying to hang on to some votes. I hope this is not the only reason why the justice minister is not more attentive to the 23 groups mentioned by my colleague for Repentigny. I have here the list of these 23 groups in Quebec but I will not name them all.

They are among others the Centrale de l'enseignement, the Conseil permanent des jeunes, the Commision des services juridiques, the Assocation des centres-jeunesse, the Conférence des régies régionales de la santé et des services sociaux. There is also the Association des avocats de la défense du Québec, the Canadian Criminal Justice Association, and the Child Welfare League of Canada.

They all support the Bloc in its opposition to Bill C-7. These are not people with grey hair like you and I, Mr. Speaker, these are people who work with young people on a daily basis. What should people with grey hair do? They should look at what is going to happen to young persons.

We sould think about it. It could be our grandchildren who we will be sending to the school for crime at 14 years of age by throwing them in jail. We will be sending them to the school for crime. It is a shame to send our young people to the school for crime.

If the Young Offenders Act were applied properly in the rest of Canada, as it is in Quebec, people would see a 23% drop in the youth crime rate. Quebec has the lowest youth crime rate in Canada because it has applied the current legislation properly using the available tools.

The youth crime rate in Quebec is still too high, with 500 young offenders per 10,000 youths, compared to 900 young offenders per 10,000 youths in the rest of Canada.

Throwing our children in jail is not the answer. It will not help. We must look closely to see why a youth has gone down that path and what we should do to help him instead of giving him a criminal record. We must help him instead of making him a criminal for the rest of his life.

As a young father, the member for Berthier—Montcalm understands that. When he studied this piece of legislation, he looked at the future of his young children: his daughter who is about 10 years old and who is a skater, and his son who is about 12 years old. If one of these children had the misfortune to commit an offence, how could we get them out of this mess? Certainly not with the Minister of Justice's Bill C-7.

There is a consensus in Quebec. A motion was brought forward last week and agreed to unanimously. It tells the minister that if she wants to win votes in western Canada, her law sould apply there, but that she sould exempt Quebec from legislation that will only more criminals in our prisons. That is what Bill C-7 is all about. That is the ultimate goal of Bill C-7.

In closing, at the beginning of March, not too long ago, I received a letter from Geneviève Tavernier, the secretary of the ASRSQ, an association dealing with criminals.

I will read this letter so that members can understand properly. I hope the members opposite, as well as those to my right and to my left, will listen. It reads as follows:

Although specializing in dealing adults in trouble with the law, the volunteers and professionals belonging to our association are interested in the situation of the young offenders and are well aware of the needs of the youth at risk. This is why our association studied Bill C-7.

We are calling on you today to reiterate our opposition to Bill C-7. We remain part of the Coalition pour la justice des mineurs.

It is on the basis of our great expertise in the area of criminal justice for adults that we want to raise awareness regarding the pitfalls of this bill.

The letter goes on to say:

As the Coalition has said, and as we have also said regarding other bills, we are convinced that the legislative elements contained in this bill promote the categorization of crimes by creating automatic reactions that will have a major impact on the way these people are dealt with. It is important to understand that the nature of the offence does not always reflect the offender's true personality.

There are three more pages I could read, but the only thing that I would like to say in closing is: Let us think about it. Let us not make criminals out of our youth. Let us not send our youth to the university for crime for no good reason.

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we will frequently be hearing the same appeal in the various interventions by the Bloc Quebecois, an appeal aimed primarily at our friends and colleagues, the federal Liberal members from Quebec, to whom we extend a hand one last time.

As the countdown to the passage of Bill C-7 becomes more pressing, the extension of this hand is becoming more pressing for our Liberal friends and colleagues from Quebec. We ask them once again to listen to the consensus expressed throughout Quebec society in opposition to C-7.

I will read a motion that was introduced at the Quebec national assembly and passed unanimously, as mentioned by my colleague from Charlesbourg earlier. I would like all Liberals from Quebec to listen.

That the National Assembly call on the Government of Canada to make provision within the criminal justice system for young persons for a special system for Quebec under the Young Offenders Act, in order to fully reflect its particular intervention model.

I believe that when we analyze the motion introduced in the national assembly properly, we see that it is, in every respect, rational and adaptable to the requirements of federal government parliamentarians. If we read this motion properly, we see that it is not calling for the bill to be withdrawn outright or scrapped, nor is it describing the bill as terrible for Quebec society. It is asking whether there is a way of including provisions in Bill C-7 to preserve what is working well in Quebec, and the system is working well in Quebec.

The purpose of Bill C-7 is to provide solutions to problems in certain regions of Canada but if there were a problem in Quebec it seems to me that it would be very difficult to get the unanimous approval of Liberal, ADQ and PQ MNAs for a motion calling on the federal government, unanimously as I keep repeating, to consider the possibility of including provisions in Bill C-7 to recognize the distinctive character and the successful approach of the government of Quebec in its policy in this area.

As the member for Berthier—Montcalm repeatedly mentioned and as he also pointed out during his tour—which was much appreciated by the public—with Marc Beaupré, the actor who played the character of Kevin in Deux frères , they made a non-partisan tour of Quebec. For a politician, it is very difficult to seriously say that we have been on a non-partisan tour because we are always for the Bloc Quebecois or sovereignty, but with this bill, we tried to behave in a non-partisan way; this is why the actors agreed to join the Bloc Quebecois on this tour.

The justice critic for the Bloc Quebecois and the young actor who went on the tour heard the same message everywhere: if the rest of Canada wants to implement Bill C-7, there is no problem. If it is more acceptable elsewhere, culturally speaking, to have Bill C-7, there is no problem but we want no part of it.

As my colleague from Charlesbourg said earlier, the Liberal Party voted on a motion recognizing Quebec=s distinct character. Since then, Liberal members have never used this for a House of Commons bill. Perhaps the time has come to do so.

My colleague from Berthier—Montcalm went on the tour. We, on this side, have tried to meet, one by one, all Liberal members from Quebec to ask them why they would vote with their government and therefore against their constituents on Bill C-7.

I have talked about this in speeches at general meetings of the Bloc Quebecois in some ridings. I must admit the answer was quite surprising and rather weak as an argument. The answer we heard was: “We know you have the unanimous support of Quebec groups because they are funded by the government of Quebec and therefore have no other choice”. I find it despicable for Liberal members from Quebec to assert that we bought the support of different groups in Quebec by giving them some financial support.

I would like the Liberal members from Quebec to explain how the government of Quebec, sovereignists, can financially support the Liberal Party of Quebec. I would like to mention that the MLA for Brome—Missisquoi, Mr. Pierre Paradis, voted for the unanimous motion of the national assembly. I do not believe he is being funded by Mr. Landry, no more than his colleagues of the Liberal Party.

The Association des chefs de police et de pompiers du Québec is against Bill C-7 and I do not think it is funded by the government or has a real say in decisions or ties to the government.

As the hon. member for Charlesbourg said earlier, other organizations are against this bill, like the Innus, the British Columbia Criminal Justice Association, Tim Quigley from the University of Saskatchewan, Dr. James Hackler from the Sociology Department of the University of Victoria; I doubt they are funded by the Parti Quebecois. I do not believe that the League for the Well-being of Children of Canada is funded by the Parti Quebecois either.

I told the members from Quebec that they may be right in part and that we may be biased in terms of our defence of or our opposition to Bill C-7, but that they also have to realize and acknowledge that they are somewhat biased. We recognize that both the Bloc Quebecois and the Liberal Party are biased on this issue.

I suggested to them that we have a list of 23 individuals, organizations, institutions or associations that are against Bill C-7, choose anyone of them at random and ask them what they think about the positions taken by the Bloc Quebecois and the Liberal Party and that they could and why they are against Bill C-7. I was not asking them to talk to one particular group that happens to share the views of the government of Quebec, which is subsidizing it. I was telling them to choose anyone of them at random.

We have been making this request to Liberal members from Quebec for the last two weeks and, from what I understand, none of them have even tried to find out why the people in the field in Quebec—not the officials of the justice minister—are against Bill C-7.

I believe that, with the kind of unanimity found in Quebec, with 23 organizations opposed to Bill C-7 and the national assembly, which passed a unanimous motion to that effect, not to mention the Liberals in Quebec, the government members who argue that the Bloc Quebecois is being stubborn in opposing this bill ought to respond to the motion passed by the national assembly.

The motion of the national assembly states, and I quote, “That the Government of Canada make provisions within the criminal justice system for young persons for a special system for Quebec”.

To conclude, I would ask the government to listen to what the people have to say, to reach out to them and look at what is being done in Quebec to meet the aspirations of those who work to fully rehabilitate young offenders.

Division No. 100

[Richard Marceau, Bloc, Charlesbourg—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, before becoming Speaker, you sat on the benches opposite. Debate in the House can sometimes be intense, exchanges sharp, sometimes caustic, perhaps overly so. The very layout of the House, with benches on opposing sides, unfortunately, perhaps contributes to an often confrontational attitude.

I also have a tendency, of which I am very proud, to defend my party's position tooth and nail based on internal discussions. I owe no one any apologies for this tendency, nor do I ask any members of the House to apologize for positions they are defending on behalf of their party.

The debate on Bill C-7 must be completely non-partisan. We must eliminate every ounce, every trace of partisanship from a debate such as this because what is involved is the future of our youth. It is in this non-partisan spirit that I rise to speak today to the young offenders bill.

The hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm has just returned from a tour of Quebec. He met with people from various sectors in all regions of Quebec. I congratulate him on his excellent work on this issue. During this tour, he confirmed in a concrete, not an abstract, way the very broad, I would even say almost unanimous, consensus of Quebec's stakeholders with respect to the young offenders legislation.

All stakeholders, judges, lawyers, including the bar associations, social workers, youth groups and so on, were almost unanimously in favour of keeping the existing Young Offenders Act. They rejected the unfortunate new approach of the Minister of Justice.

This consensus so completely transcends party lines that the three parties represented in the national assembly, parties whose views differ on sovereignty and on a whole spectrum of issues ranging from left to right unanimously agreed to a motion calling for the existing Young Offenders Act to be maintained intact.

In Quebec there is a strong national desire to retain the system in place today, which has proven itself. It has given Quebec the lowest rates of youth crime and of recidivism by young offenders.

I have trouble understanding why a system that is working properly would be shunted aside, destroyed by the Liberal government out of mere political calculation aimed at pleasing people on the right wing who are often the western voters.

Last week new stakeholders made their voices heard. They are the aboriginal communities of Quebec. Rosario Pinette, chief of the Sept-Îles Innu community, met with my colleague, the hon. member for Berthier-Montcalm. Speaking on behalf of Matthew Coon Come, the grand chief of the Assembly of First Nations, he took a strong position against the provisions of Bill C-7. He said:

If Bill C-7 is passed, it will not get into our community. It will be kept out because it attacks aboriginal people outright. It is an imposed law that does not respect our cultural reality.

That is pretty strong language. He went still further:

Mistakes are quickly forgotten. In 50 years, there may be a compensation fund to undo the damage done by Bill C-7, as there was for the residential schools.

Here we see an alliance between the aboriginal nations and the Quebec nation in demanding that this government not put in place, not enact, not pass Bill C-7.

Is there perhaps a compromise? I am very open to that. Let us ensure that Bill C-7 allows provinces which so desire to withdraw from the new system the Minister of Justice is putting in place and allows those provinces which so desire to retain the present system.

The mechanism is possible. Mr. Justice Dickson, the former chief justice of the supreme court, said so in a legal opinion which, I hope, most members of this House and particularly Liberal members from Quebec have consulted and read. This legal opinion provided that it was quite possible to adopt such a mechanism.

Another legal basis is the concept of distinct society. This government had a motion passed to the effect that the government should take the distinct character of Quebec into account before passing a bill. We could base our decision on that. Let us ensure that Quebec, if it so desires, and heaven knows it does, can be exempted from implementing the harmful system that would be put in place through Bill C-7 and can continue to apply the existing Young Offenders Act.

One may wonder, and many actually do, why this government is not using the bill to promote its political option. It could easily say “Look how open federalism is, look how it promotes diversity. We are allowing Quebec to withdraw from the application of this bill”. The government could earn brownie points. It always pays to listen to what the public wants.

I sincerely call on the Liberal government and Liberal members from Quebec to not support Bill C-7 or at least to ensure that Quebec can apply the existing Young Offenders Act. It is not too late to respect the consensual choice repeatedly expressed by Quebecers through various forums, including the House of Commons by a majority of members from Quebec, the national assembly or the various stakeholders representing civil society.

I ask Quebec Liberal members to vote with us and to ensure that Bill C-7 does not apply to Quebec.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to speak again to the bill, which was under consideration prior to the parliamentary recess.

I would like to draw the attention of the House to an important event that took place on our final day of debate on this matter, and that is the motion passed unanimously in the Quebec national assembly. It was a joint motion by the Liberal member for Bourassa and the Quebec minister of justice.

The motion read:

That the National Assembly call on the Government of Canada to make provision within the criminal justice system for young persons for a special system for Quebec under the Young Offenders Act, in order to fully reflect its particular intervention model.

After the players in the field, those who work with young people, all expressed their opposition to Bill C-7, the Quebec national assembly, the only legislature in which Quebecers form the majority, decided unanimously last week that it wanted Quebec to have its own system, that of the existing law.

This position is in fact based on the interpretation of a former chief justice of the Supreme Court of Canada, Mr. Dickson, who said that the federal government could, if it expressed the political desire to do so, apply the law with full flexibility so that Quebecers could retain the Young Offenders Act, with the results they have obtained in rehabilitation and re-integration into society that are the envy of all of Canada. They would want this flexibility to be used by the federal government so they could assess the results over a period of time, such as five or ten years.

All Quebecers, all stakeholders in this area and all parents in Quebec are prepared to bet that the outcome of this operation will be an even lower crime rate in Quebec and an even better performance in terms of rehabilitating our young people. This would show even more clearly that Quebec, which wants to continue to apply the law based on its own vision, should not be forced to follow this government's right wing offensive to impose a national way of doing things that does not reflect Quebecers' views.

I will conclude on that note. It is important for all members of the House, particularly those who represent ridings from Quebec and including all the Liberals who were elected at the last general election, to remember that if they support the bill they will go against the unanimous consensus reached in Quebec and against the motion unanimously passed by the Quebec national assembly.

Therefore, I call on them to think about this issue and to vote according to the interests and priorities of Quebecers, not the priorities set by this government to please a right wing group in its ranks and in Canadian society.

I urge all members to vote in that fashion this evening when we vote on the bill at report stage and then at third reading. It is important that all members from Quebec join forces with the Quebec national assembly.

Youth Criminal Justice Act

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

moved:

That in relation to Bill C-7, an act in respect of criminal justice for young persons and to amend and repeal other acts, not more than one further sitting day shall be allotted to the consideration of the report stage of the bill and one sitting day shall be allotted to the third reading stage of the said bill and, fifteen minutes before the expiry of the time provided for government business on the day allotted to the consideration of the report stage and on the day allotted to the third reading stage of the said bill, any proceedings before the House shall be interrupted, if required for the purpose of this order, and in turn every question necessary for the disposal of the stage of the bill then under consideration shall be put forthwith and successively without further debate or amendment.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, to follow up on my colleague from Quebec, despite her voice that gave her some difficulty, are we to assume that all Liberal members from Quebec also have a sore throat? She has the courage to speak out on behalf of all Quebecers.

It is with great interest that I speak to this bill. In September 1998, when I was elected as the member for Sherbrooke, I proudly committed to representing the interests of residents of my riding, my region and Quebec.

I have been constantly in contact with youth centres, with the Coalition des travailleurs de rues, with different youth workers. I know quite well several people who work with young people in my region.

When I look at young people, I remember that, one day, there was born a child, an exceptional child, a sovereign being to whom people wished only good things, the best things in the world, both for the mind and the body, and also intelligence.

However, even when an exceptional and sovereign child is born, it is not certain that child will be able to live comfortably in society. Numerous actions and contacts throughout his childhood and his adolescence will mould him, develop him and shape his behaviour. Likewise if, unfortunately, this young person ever commits some wrongdoing, it is difficult for us to determine why it happened. We know that each person is different, and can commit certain offences, but the first thing that we must do is to help that person because, as I said earlier, this individual is not allowed to function like this in a society that has laws, regulations and even biases. We must of course identify the causes of that person's reprehensible behaviour and deal with them.

When we look at the bill, at how it is drafted and at what it proposes, we realize that the government's priority is to establish a list, label crimes and define the price to pay by the young offender, instead of developing a set of personalized measures for each young person who commits an offence. We know that it is possible to take action at that level, so that these young people will later be able to contribute in a very positive way in society.

Instead of using a personalized set of measures for young people, the bill tries to define the seriousness of the offences and, for all intents and purposes, make the individual pay on that basis. Let me go back to young people's power to make decisions. Through its acts, the government is telling us that a person under 18 years of age is not allowed to vote or to decide for himself if he can smoke. That young person does not have that power. A young person under 18 is not allowed to drink beer moderately. He is not allowed to make such a decision.

On the other hand, the government wants to make that same person responsible for actions which, as I said earlier, may be due to any number of circumstances in which a young person lives in our society. It is difficult to identify the real problem, but we must take every measure possible to make that young person able to function. If he has made a mistake or done something deplorable, we must help him. The first principle is early intervention.

In Quebec, there are many stakeholders today who gained a solid experience in intervention and supervision, helping young persons learn how to function in our society. Should we always proceed punitively? I am very sceptical about that. Why did we say that, on the one hand, the bill against organized crime does not go far enough while, on the other hand, the bill respecting young persons goes a little too far? Are we to understand that the government maintains automatically, as the saying goes “He who steals a penny will steal a pound”? I do not agree, but this is what the government says automatically.

Since September 14, 1998, I have direct contact with people involved in criminal justice in my riding. Only yesterday, as part of the tour being carried out by my colleague from Berthier—Montcalm, we met with quite a large group of stakeholders.

This group included many young persons who are familiar with this situation, young persons who saw some of their friends faced with situations that were sometimes painful, to say the least. These people witnessed how Quebec stakeholders rehabilitated some young persons who, if Bill C-7 had been in effect at the time, would have been lost. One day, these young persons would have ended up being dealt with under the organized crime legislation.

It is obvious that the members of the Bloc Quebecois are acting in good faith, are being caring and are acting out of love for the young people. We ask the Quebec members of the Liberal party to also act in good faith and to honestly say that, in Quebec at this time, the Young Offenders Act adequately meets the needs of the young people. Thanks to this legislation, they can have access to workers who give them guidance. However, such an approach is expensive.

Instead of investing $200 million or $250 million for the enforcement of this legislation, the federal government, which often speaks about its great generosity, should transfer a pro rata share of this money to Quebec, so that we can continue to enforce the legislation we now have in Quebec, where it is undeniably yielding good results.

If all Quebec members honestly and sincerely declare that they want to protect the young people of Quebec, I think that all the Liberal members will vote against this bill, alongside Bloc Quebecois members, to make sure that our youth can has a chance at happiness.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my voice is not in the best of shape for me to speak today, but I really wanted to make a speech on the young offenders legislation. This is a very important piece of legislation for Quebec.

I find unfortunate the position of the government where it refuses to recognize the realities of Quebec. With this bill, we are seeing the same lack of flexibility of federalism when it comes to recognizing Quebec's realities and approaches.

It is insult that is made today to Quebec's National Assembly, which voted unanimously against this bill that make the Young Offenders Act tougher. We know that for our young offenders who have committed a severe crime, a crime that is unacceptable in our society, but who need a particular approach or reinforcement, the bill will run counter to everything that was put in place in Quebec to help them.

We are not alone in this fight. In Quebec, many stakeholders have in fact supported our colleague, the Member for Berthier—Montcalm, in the battle that he has been waging for many years against the justice minister's bill.

The minister insists on enforcing an act that goes against what is being done in Quebec. Each problem is different, and this is exactly the approach taken by Quebec. Each problem is different, and each one has a different solution.

The new act that the minister wants to adopt, which is focusing mainly on the seriousness of the offence, underestimates the needs of young people. It does not deal with the young person, with the one who needs a special approach or individualized treatment.

The Quebec approach is successful and it has been said that, at 23%, the Quebec criminality rate it is the lowest in Canada. What Bill C-7 will do is to change the face of juvenile justice. It will change gradually. We all know that the attorney will be the one who will do justice. Whether he will enforce the minister's bill or adopt Quebec's approach remains to be seen however.

We can only be against this bill. The government claims that there will be flexibility and that the provinces will have some. But this is nothing else than smoke and mirrors. It will be up to the attorney. There is nothing in the bill confirming that Quebec may carry on as it would like to.

We thought that the amendments put forward by my colleague from Berthier—Montcalm would persuade the Minister of Justice. But no, quite the contrary. I do not think she will be persuaded. She is digging her heels. From her answers, it is obvious that she is stubbornly refusing to understand what is being done in Quebec. But we will not give up.

As we know, there is a tour of Quebec going on at present. Through it, Quebec public opinion will be heard louder and louder. The public is becoming more and more aware of what is going on here in the federal parliament.

I would like to make particular mention of the generous contribution of Marc Beaupré, a young actor who wanted to add his voice to the campaign. He plays a troubled youth, Kevin, in the televised serial Les deux frères . In order to see what it was like for a youth in jail, he spent time there himself. He was able to see for himself how much it was a school for crime. In just a few days, he was able to learn some of the tactics taught in the schools for crime that are our prisons.

We must not bury our heads in the sand on this. We know very well that, when a person is treated like a criminal, rehabilitation becomes harder. We know very well that there are no more true life sentences, that the person will be coming back out into society. We must do everything possible to reclaim our youth, to give them every possible encouragement, while at the same time making them accept the seriousness of what they have done. This is the approach used in Quebec at the present time. The young offender is made aware, made to understand right from the start the serious nature of what he or she has done, and immediate assistance must be provided as well.

With the minister's law in place, we will no longer be able to take that approach, to intervene as appropriately, as promptly, as necessarily as is often required, with the young person who has committed an offence.

We are very disappointed, because we have the support of many people. I can tell the House that the list of those who support us is impressive. André Normandeau, a criminologist from the University of Montreal, supports the Bloc Quebecois' approach, as does Cécile Toutant, a criminologist and a member of the Quebec Bar Association's subcommittee on young offenders, Jean Trépanier, a criminologist, and André Payette, a spokesperson for the Association des centres jeunesse du Québec.

I could read out pages and pages of names of people who support us, but I will stop here, because it is truly discouraging to see how stubbornly the government is pushing this bill through.

We hope that our offensive today will show that we are not going to give up and that we will keep on hoping right up until the last minute that the minister will finally recognize what is being done in Quebec.

I would like to read an excerpt from the Jasmin report, which goes as follows:

It is often easier to amend legislation than to change our approach to a problem. It may be tempting to think that tougher legislation is the answer to the problems of delinquency. Simplistic responses blind us to the full extent of complex problems and create the false impression that we are doing what is necessary to resolve them.

One such simplistic response is substituting get-tough measures for educational approaches. Doing so, however, loses sight of the fact that adolescents are still developing, and lays all of the blame for their delinquency on them, as if society and the environment they live in had nothing to do with it.

I think that we all feel concerned. When a young person commits such a serious offence, I think that all of society should feel responsible. Our legislation and approaches must be realistic. They must be rooted in reality.

I am going to support the initiative of the hon. member for Berthier—Montcalm. I find it sad that members of this parliament are not rising to speak today. Where are the Liberal members from Quebec? The Liberals from Quebec said they were going to have one voice in parliament. When they were campaigning, they were very interested in mergers. We are not dealing with mergers here; we are dealing with the new Young Offenders Act, which is going against the Quebec approach.

Like my colleague for Charlevoix was saying, where are the Liberal members from Quebec? Where is the member for Louis-Hébert? Where is the member for Québec East? Where is the member for Portneuf? All of them are members of the Liberal Party that got elected in the last elections.

We, in the Bloc Quebecois, are here to speak for the interests of Quebec. We will never let go because we are not afraid to talk loud and clear about the consensus existing in Quebec. This bill will be one more example of the federal government's inflexibility concerning Quebec.

All the youth centre support the legislation already in place in Quebec; they are against the minister's bill because its approach is not good for young offenders and their rehabilitation. We will never say it enough.

Today, I might not have had the voice to make a speech, but I was trying to express my concern over what is proposed in this bill.

[Gérard Asselin, Bloc, Charlevoix, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today on behalf of voters in Quebec who elected us during the last election on November 27. This was a senseless election called by the prime minister, but it went ahead anyway.

Quebecers, especially those in Charlevoix, were lucky enough to be able to make a democratic choice and send to the House of Communes an MP with the mandate to defend Quebec's interests.

I am very proud to rise today in the House to speak to Bill C-7 on behalf of my constituents in Charlevoix, but most of all on behalf on young people in my riding. Our youth is our future. They will be penalized by Bill C-7 on young offenders.

The Quebec National Assembly is totally opposed to the federal bill. Once again we feel that the federal government wants to centralize through a legislation the former Reform Party had asked for. The minister, in order to win a few ridings in Western Canada, has rehashed legislation asked for by the Reform Party now called the Canadian Alliance, only to win a few votes in Western Canada. This is been done at the expense of one province, Quebec, which is managing very well under the Young Offenders Act.

Statistics show that we have a rehabilitation system in Quebec. There are institutions for young people, such as drop-in centres, where they are followed by psychologists and have access to guidance and training.

The purpose of all this is social reintegration. Sometimes, because of bad luck, depression or drug or alcohol abuse, a 16- year old girl or boy commits an unfortunate act. Right after committing that act, that young person deserves some form of reintegration, of rehabilitation.

According to Bill C-7, youngsters 14, 15 or 16 years old would be put in jail for an undetermined period of time. Putting a youngster away for ten years in a maximum security jail with adults, criminals, is like sending him to the university of crime.

It would be totally illogical to send a teenager who has committed an offence—oftentimes by order of an organized crime group—to “the pen” while organized crime members are free to come and go.

The young offender obeyed orders, either to make money or to act out violently or because he was acting under remote-control. He would be sent to penitentiaries, those crime universities, for an indeterminate period of time that, as I said, could be from eight to ten years. The minister agrees to all of this, she is fully aware of this.

She will know that in Quebec, the justice system, the police, the CLSCs, in other words all those involved are unanimously rejecting this bill and saying that the minister is mistaken. It is totally illogical to send teenagers to prison while criminals, who are clearly identified with their crest on their backs, go about freely.

Because she made a mistake we are asking the minister to introduce a bill to fight organized crime. We are also telling her that Bill C-7 is targeting the wrong people, young offenders.

Since it has not yet achieved sovereignty, Quebec is still subject to federal legislation. The federal government is about to pass a bill that would be bad for Quebecers, who are unanimously denouncing it. The courts, educational institutions, penitentiaries, the police, lawyers, judges, everyone is against it.

Because we have not yet obtained sovereignty, because we are still dependent on the federal government, we must give in. The Liberal government in power is about to muzzle us by saying: “We will end the debate at such time, on such day and proceed to the vote”. With its majority in the House the Liberal government will once again pass a bill that will affect our constituents, particularly young Quebecers.

During the 1995 referendum campaign, many Canadians came to Montreal to tell us how much they loved us, how much they appreciated us and wanted to keep us in Canada. They wanted our young people to vote no. The difference between the yes and the no sides was about 50,000 votes. More than 48% voted yes, and the federal government won by a slim majority.

Liberal ministers from Quebec and even the Prime Minister travelled extensively throughout Quebec and its regions, and they made all sorts of promises. But the Liberal government's promises do not wash anymore, or they will not, because Quebec's motto is I remember.

I hope those who voted no in the referendums will remember that, once again, the Prime Minister of Canada has lied to and misled the population. Today, the minister is trying to have a bill passed that will be detrimental to Quebecers and young offenders in Quebec.

It is unfortunate, but, in the circumstances, Bloc Quebecois members who are here to represent the young and Quebecers in general have to condemn this situation. I also find unfortunate the fact that the Quebec members in the government, the Prime Minister, who comes from Quebec, the Minister of National Revenue, who hails from Charlevoix, the Minister of Finance and the Secretary of State for Amateur Sport, who is also from Quebec, said during the election campaign “Vote for us. We are in power. We listen carefully. We can speak in Cabinet”.

Why are they not telling the Minister of Justice, who does not live in Quebec, who does not know or understand it, that everyone opposes this bill, which is skewing the whole legal system for young offenders in Quebec? Why are they not taking the minister to task? It means nothing to be in office today. What counts is the party line. The Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and the Minister for International Trade come from Quebec as well. There is a fairly sizeable group from Quebec, who should have some influence on the minister.

Here again, the focus of the minister is to meet the demands made at the time by the Canadian Alliance and say “We are looking after that, we in the Liberal Party. We are getting organized”. Unfortunately, the Liberal members from Quebec are totally out of this debate. None of them is rising. They smile at us, almost arrogantly. What is the member for Québec East waiting for?

I think I see Jean-Paul Marchand rising here today and criticizing the situation. I see Hélène Alarie, the member for Louis-Hébert at the time, rising and doing the same thing. I can also see the former member for Frontenac—Mégantic, Jean-Guy Chrétien. He would have torn his hair out here in the House in his unbridled criticism of the situation and in his whole-hearted defence of the interests of the young people in his riding. I think I can see the former member of Frontenac—Mégantic expressing his disagreement to the minister.

On the Liberal side, however, a number of members have probably left for supper, and the others still here are totally out of this debate. And yet, they were elected.

I close in the hope, once again, that the minister will accept the amendments to Bill C-7 proposed by the Bloc Quebecois. I would like to congratulate the member for Berthier—Montcalm for his excellent work in this.

[Jocelyne Girard-Bujold, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Mr. Speaker, usually, it is a pleasure for me to speak in this House, but, today, I am very sad. With Bill C-7, we will be burying a practice that has proven its mettle in Quebec, that of democracy.

Before I begin, I would like to congratulate my colleague, the member for Berthier—Montcalm, for preventing the government from burying the Young Offenders Act for years now.

Yesterday, in the Jonquière region, with stakeholders from the community, I attended a meeting. In attendance were representatives of the Centres jeunesse du Saguenay, the head of youth protection, the Syndicat des enseignants de Jonquière, the Corporation de développement communautaire des Deux-Rives, which comprises some 50 community organizations and the Aînés de JAK de Jonquière, senior citizens. They said “No, no, no. We seniors oppose this bill”.

As well, there was the Association des parents d'ados, an organization helping young people. This organizations provides a 24 hour help line.

Also in attendance were the Patro de Jonquière, streetworkers, Justice alternative jeunesse du Saguenay Inc., the Commission scolaire des rives du Saguenay, the Commission scolaire de Jonquière, the Association québécoise de défense des droits des personnes retraitées et préretraitées, the Centres Jeunesse and a number of individuals.

They all came to speak to my colleague and to Marc Beaupré, the person in charge of the non political aspect of the issue in Quebec. It is far too important an issue to make it political. Marc Beaupré is doing an excellent job of it.

I also attended a meeting in the riding of Sherbrooke, with my colleague who represents that riding and about twenty stakeholders, ordinary people, street workers, community organizations. They came to tell my colleague and me that they did not want this bill.

They are the ones who are the first to intervene with young people. They are the ones who know how effective the Young Offenders Act is in Quebec. I am not saying that it does not need any improvement. Nothing is perfect in this world. But these people work with this act and they are telling us “We have the right tools; we must just improve them and invest in the front line, that is, in prevention”.

This is what they came to tell us. I did not ask them to do so. They are the ones who agreed to meet my colleague and who said “Congratulations, you are informed. You are defending young people. You are defending tomorrow's society”.

In the last couple days, I have been witnessing a vaudeville in the House. We know what a vaudeville is. It is a human comedy.

I think now that enough is enough. What is happening now with this arrogant government is enough. The Minister of Justice should go and listen to the Quebec people. Why does she not travel? I am prepared to invite her to my riding of Jonquière, so she can meet workers who will tell her about their views on the Young Offenders Act and Bill C-7. I would like that. I am inviting her. I am extending my hand to her. I would even like to invite the Prime Minister and tell him “Come and listen to ordinary people. You are a lawyer by training. Come and listen”.

Judges are saying that they will not know how to implement Bill C-7. Moreover, it will cost between $200 million and $250 million to do so. That money will not go to young people. It will be lost in structures such as buildings and facilities, and in training for judges.

Two hundred and fifty million dollars to implement a bill, when street workers back home are not even paid minimum wage to provide frontline to young offenders. They sure could use $250 million. In Quebec, the recidivism rate is nil. It would be wonderful; things would be even better. We would be able to help young people who have stumbled.

At age 14, we all make foolish mistakes, including you and I, Mr. Speaker. Should a 14 year old be branded for the rest of his life? Today's young people are not allowed to buy alcohol or cigarettes until they are 18 years of age. The law prohibits them from doing that. But at age 14, they would be sentenced and branded for the rest of their life? This is unacceptable.

How can we get this across to the Minister of Justice, all members from Quebec and all Liberal members from Quebec? They should tell their minister “Open your eyes. We are successful in Quebec. Make sure it gets even better. Help us improve things if necessary, but do not dismiss it out of hand and start all over again”.

We have been successfully implementing this legislation for years in Quebec. Why should we pay for the other provinces, which had the same legislation, but did not implement it?

I am speaking for young people. I have children myself, and I have grandchildren, as do many of you and many of those watching us today. Parents came and told us “The young offenders system is helping us. But with this bill, it will become judicialized”. This is not what people want. They want assistance, assistance for the young people, and for their families so that the young people can learn to take charge and make something out of their lives. This is possible under the present Young Offenders Act, but it will not be under Bill C-7. What a shame.

I do not know how I will proceed, but I have a lot of imagination and I will not allow the minister to come in my province, where we are successful, and establish a system under which this success will be ignored, and young people will have no opportunity to take their destiny into their own hands. This is unacceptable.

Yesterday, actor Marc Beaupré came to speak with young people. He asked them what they thought about the bill. They answered “We cannot support this bill. You must stop them”. But how can they be stopped? That is the question I ask Quebecers and Canadians, as well as the Liberals in the House.

I am asking the Liberals “When will you stop criminalizing young people with such a bill?” I do not think that we should throw stones at the young person who commits an offence. In life, we should all have an opportunity to get their lives back together.

In my family there are several lawyers, so I know how the judicial system works. Instead of helping young people we will put them through the judicial system. That is enough. We are dealing with young people less than 18 years old, not with adults. Oddly enough, adults sentenced to six years of prison, thanks to a remission of sentence, serve only two years. That is serious.

Presently, under the Young Offenders Act, young people sentenced to six years serve six years. They serve their sentence in a rehabilitation system, in institutions that allow them to know themselves and progress. This is possible under the Young Offenders Act.

The minister must be thinking “I made a mistake. We must allowed Quebec to withdraw from the application of that act”. We must be allowed to keep on applying proactive measures for our youth. We are asking her to allow us to do so.

If she wants to maintain her bill as is, she should keep it for the other provinces and let Quebec withdraw from its application. That is what I am asking her to do. If she maintains it as is, I will vote against it.

[Yves Rocheleau, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

My colleague reminds me that we did not get to vote. We know how timid this government is when it comes to using all the powers available to it, particularly to limit debate. We know how, in this great Canadian democracy, parliamentarians are free to express their opinions. We know how much we like to tell other countries how to run their affairs. This is part of the hypocrisy we were talking about a moment ago during Oral Question Period.

Speaking of that, I hope that the Bloc will find a way to set the record straight, faced as we are with a government that is becoming more and more arrogant, and even more so since the last election.

So I want to salute my hon. colleague for Berthier—Montcalm, who is touring all the regions of Quebec now to focus public attention on the fact that this bill contains certain totally unacceptable things which are absolutely contrary—and this is the aspect I want to bring to the attention of the hon. members—to a way of doing things which is really unique to Quebec and which, moreover, is a great success.

We must bear in mind that young Quebecers represent 23% of young Canadians but only 11% of young Canadians who are in trouble with the law. This is a sign that the Quebec approach is effective. While there are 201 cases involving young people before the courts in Quebec, there are 435 in the rest of Canada. That is the proof that the approach of Quebec is effective, valid and personalized.

In the 1970s, there was a slogan in Quebec “Québec sait faire”, or if you prefer “Quebec has the know-how”. Quebec does have the know-how in the field of juvenile delinquency. Quebec knows how to do things well, by respecting individuals and giving them a chance. Given our tradition, Quebec's rehabilitation rate is very high compared to the Canadian approach which is focusing more on a punitive approach and on repression, the words are delicate here, as we tend to make everything we can to rehabilitate the individual and get him back into society.

It is this approach that is now being challenged in the federal bill; it is challenged in what I call our soul. Crime is always a touchy subject in any society, all the more so when it concerns young people.

We have developed a model that works very well and that makes a wide use of the Quebec expertise. We are faced here with a process that does not recognize Quebec's performance and originality, that even holds it in contempt. It crushes this specificity and distinctiveness—I am sure members understand what that means—that come perhaps from being a distinct society. I am using the very words used by the Prime Minister in his post-referendum motion when he declared that Quebec is a distinct society.

However, the government does not recognize this so-called distinct society that the member for Saint-Maurice has in mind, whether it concerns young offenders, parental leave or the $5 à day day care.

It indicates an obvious lack of courage. All we are asking as Quebecers, all my colleague from Berthier—Montcalm is asking as a member of the House of Commons, all the coalition is asking for, based on a consensus among Quebecers, is that Quebec be allowed to use its own approach and that it be allowed to withdraw from this bill, if only on the basis of its distinct character.

What is the use of having a consensus in a society which purports to be a democratic society—and Quebec is a democratic society—and of asking every Tom, Dick and Harry and various prestigious organizations—my colleague from Berthier—Montcalm listed them earlier—as well as criminal lawyers, youth centers, youth protection services, psychologists, etc., when everyone agrees that the Quebec approach is the best?

Its the best because it is focused on the individual and his special needs. The justice system examines every individual on a case-by-case basis to understand his personal development, to see if he can be rehabilitated, if he cooperates, if he has a good behaviour. This formula works.

When all those in the know say that we should keep the status quo, what gives members opposite the right to do what they are doing? They are obeying a mean western right wing anxious to stomp on those who have made mistakes in their youth without giving them a chance to make amends. They would lock them up and throw away the keys. Why should Quebec have to submit to such a process?

This is a wonderful example—and you can be sure that your humble servant will use it to the best of his intellectual capacities—of the price Quebec has to pay for its dependence, its non-sovereignty. This is the result of having voted no in the 1995 referendum.

They are ramming down our throats legislation which is steamrolling over Canada and from now on, things will be decided here and no longer in Vancouver, or Winnipeg, Halifax, Toronto and especially not in Quebec City. Things will be decided here, from coast to coast, with national standards for health, education, and social programs as is this could be called.

The government will be the leader. Even when the public is against it, or when the major stakeholders are against it as is the case with Bill C-7 on young offenders, it strong-headedly, arrogantly, heavy-handedly forges ahead with its legislation instead of been true to its promise. A promise from whom? From none other than the Prime Minister. He is the one who used the expression distinct society to deceive Quebecers.

With every week, and every month that goes by we realize that the Prime Minister's distinct society is but an empty shell. He was talking through his hat. He was trying to fool people.

Next time when there is a referendum in Quebec, soon we hope, people can count on us to appeal to Quebecers' wisdom and remind them they should no longer trust this Prime Minister; they should not put their trust either in his predecessors such as Pierre Elliott Trudeau, who was his mentor, or for that matter any other prime minister in this supposedly great democratic country. They made promises during the referendum campaign, at a three-day love-in. They make nice memories.

They made commitments and promised to put their heads on the chopping block. They made commitments, in Verdun this time, only to break them and lie to the people of Quebec.

Contempt can only last for a while.

[Yves Rocheleau, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased, for various reasons, to speak to Bill C-7. I want to start by paying a most sincere tribute to the member for Berthier—Montcalm for the colossal work he has done on this issue, as he does on all issues in which he is involved.

But his work on this issue is particularly remarkable. We know that he has been trying for months to get through to the government. He did it, among other things, by proposing 3,000 amendments in committee, 2,977 of which were ruled in order by the chair.

He also did it in a colossal way by speaking in committee for a period equivalent to almost 27 hours without interruption, probably to the great joy of his colleagues opposite. He did it very effectively, all things being relative of course. Let us say it was a relative joy—

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have listened to all the remarks since the beginning of this debate, and I would like to go back on some of the questions that have been raised.

For example, the Alliance member for Wild Rose said “I encourage Bloc members to go back and visit with people in Quebec. They will find out that they are against this and want changes to the Young Offenders Act”. The hon. member is certainly not reading the papers these days. Since Sunday, May 13, I have been on a whirlwind tour of Quebec, which has already taken me to Montreal, Laval, Bonaventure, Sept-îles, Jonquière, and Sherbrooke.

Just before coming to the House today, I gave a press conference and I met people in Hull, Gatineau, and Aylmer to discuss the Young Offenders Act and Bill C-7 of the Minister of Justice. During this tour, I met experts, but also ordinary citizens, mothers and fathers. I will meet more people, because I will be touring for five or six more days.

All these people told me the same thing: We do not want the federal government to tell us how to raise our children. We have legislation called the Young Offenders Act and if it is applied properly, that legislation gives good results.

To the hon. member wondering if I know what is going on in my province, I can say that I do. I do not claim to know everything, and that is why I keep on touring Quebec. However, I have not seen anyone who was happy with the minister's amendments. No one in Quebec wants to see the Young Offenders Act amended.

Of course, there is room for improvement. If we had more money in order to apply that legislation even better, we would get better results. The justice minister said the implementation of Bill C-7 would cost Canadian taxpayers between $200 million and $250 million. That is just for implementing Bill C-7.

If the federal government has money it does not know what to do with, here is what I say: “Do not allow yourselves the luxury of a new act that no one wants and that everyone, even in the western provinces, finds complicated; invest more money so that provinces know and implement the Young Offenders Act better”. The success of a good implementation lies in knowing the tools.

They come up with extrajudicial measures as if it were something new to Bill C-7. But the Young Offenders Act already provides for alternative measures and we have been enforcing them for a long time in Quebec. This no doubt explains why we have the lowest crime rate in Canada. The province also has the lowest recidivism rate and the lowest detention rate This may be because we enforce the law correctly.

The justice critic for the Progressive Conservative Party, the hon. member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, spoke highly of Quebec. He said that Quebec is more successful than any other province. This is true. He praised Quebec's approach. And government members made similar comments. Do members realize that the bill they are about to pass—and I do hope they will not pass it—, the bill the government wants us to pass will put an end to this excellent success by Quebec?

Quebec's whole approach is now jeopardized. If members do not wish to listen to me, the member for Berthier—Montcalm, hopefully they will listen to all the Quebecers who daily enforce the Young Offenders Act. This is why Quebec has such good success rates.

Members should listen to the Commission des services juridiques, the Conseil permanent de la jeunesse, the Centrale de l'enseignement, university teachers, criminologists, Jean Trépanier, a well-known expert on the issue, the Fondation québécoise pour les jeunes contrevenants, Institut Pinel, the Conférence des régies régionales de la santé, Les Centres jeunesse du Québec, defence counsel and prosecutors.

The court judges who appeared before the committee said so. Justice Michel Jasmin appeared before the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. This is not someone who knows nothing about the law. Justice Michel Jasmin is the co-ordinating judge of the Youth Court of Quebec. He came and told us that what the federal government was about to do was a mistake. We should at least listen to those individuals.

The Quebec coalition for youth justice is a group of thirty to forty agencies that enforce the Young Offenders Act on a daily basis, and it said the same thing. They told us that the problem was not the Young Offenders Act, but the way it is implemented. It has to be better enforced. But to be better enforced, this legislation needs to be better understood.

It seems to me that, as members representing ridings, as legislators in this House, before we amend the law, we should try to find out what the problem is. The problem is not the law but its enforcement. Let us work together to find a better way to enforce the law and inform the other provinces about the success achieved in Quebec.

Furthermore, the minister made some 166 amendments to the bill as it existed before the election of November 2000, in order to satisfy Quebec she says.

The government across the way refused to hear what witnesses from Quebec had to say about his proposed amendments. The government is embarrassed because it is fully aware that these amendments, as well as Bill C-7 we are now debating, are not in line with what is done in Quebec, and in fact go against everything that has been done in Quebec for at least 20 years. The government did not want to hear this. It lacked the courage to hear those individuals who enforce that law.

When I toured the province a woman told me: “Everything you said about implementing the legislation and what a teenager needs to get back on the right track is true. The good thing about the Young Offenders Act is that it takes the human factor into account. The YOA is also good for families and for parents because it gives them something to do. The legislation gives them the right to act in order to help their children get out of trouble”.

If there is one area where there is no discrimination it is youth crime. We find young offenders in poor families as well as in rich ones. No one is immune to the phenomenon.

I myself have kids. If one day because of peer pressure from friends or a street gang, or because of school or for any other reason, one of my kids or both of them stray from the path, I would prefer them to come under the Young Offenders and not the legislation the minister wants to shove down Quebec's throat because the YOA gives me, the parent, a say in what happens to my kids,

Bill C-7 contains a series of automatic responses and measures. Everything is left to the justice system. The cases are withdrawn from stakeholders who know very well how to deal with young offenders.

If their offence is serious, they will be given a pre-determined sentence while if it is not so serious, they will be given a simple warning. It will not be possible to intervene at the right moment, do the right thing, and treat young offenders properly. That is what is catastrophic and what the government does not seem to understand.

I am told that I only have one minute left. I could speak for hours on this issue because it is a subject that is close to my heart, and this has nothing to do with party politics. I met people and I will meet many more still during the tour I am doing with an excellent spokesperson, Marc Beaupré.

Marc Beaupré is not in politics precisely because he pursues social causes. He is an actor playing the role of Kevin in the series Les deux frères . He is a talented young actor who decided to join us, not the Bloc Quebecois, but all those of us who want to fight for children in Quebec.

He wants to convince the minister and the government that they are on the wrong track. He is trying to reach out to them, as we do, to make them understand.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, unfortunately, the Progressive Conservative Party cannot support this amendment.

Much like the position that has been articulated by my colleague from Winnipeg—Transcona there is ample evidence, both in committee and before the House, that the province of Quebec has done exemplary work in the administration of the current Young Offenders Act.

It has arguably set the standard for the rest of the country in the way in which it has been very innovative in early intervention and restorative justice model type programs aimed specifically and very directly at troubled youth before they enter the criminal justice system.

As was enunciated by the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona, the Progressive Conservative Party has in the past made monumental efforts to recognize the distinctness of Quebec not only in the area of justice but in the areas of culture and language.

However in this instance we are dealing with a federal statute that pertains directly to the administration of justice. This amendment would allow provinces to opt out completely, to take away federal jurisdiction and leave jurisdiction solely in the hands of one province. That is dangerous and inconsistent with the administration of federal laws.

I think all members would agree that an opting out provision on criminal law is a recipe for disaster. Criminal law must apply evenly and be administered with fairness and with balance across the country. We cannot have bizarre sentencing schemes or justice that is seen as biased in any province.

Quebec's approach to criminal justice and youth criminal justice is arguably superior to that of other provinces and should be admired and emulated. However, an amendment to opt out and administer separately and apart from the rest of the country would not be in keeping with federal legislation.

I commend the intent and spirit of what the hon. member has put forward but I cannot support the amendment. We will have ample opportunity to debate this cumbersome and confusing bill in its entirety and to look at its many shortcomings.

For all its good intentions and emphasis on early intervention, the new law would shortchange provinces which try to administer it. It would expand the existing Young Offenders Act twofold. The provinces would cry out for resources because the bill permits and alludes to the expansion of early intervention programs.

The provinces would be left to live up to the standards the bill calls for without being given the resources to do so. The Minister of Justice has given the provinces a postdated cheque. The bill would come into being after being rushed through committee, as we have seen in this session. It would be foisted upon the provinces without the additional resources they would need to start and administer many of the programs.

Those are not my words or the words of the Progressive Conservative Party. Those words came directly from provincial representatives who appeared before the committee. They expressed grave concerns that the federal government, through Bill C-7, was trying to raise public expectations that all would be well if the bill came into being. They said that the notion of putting in place early intervention programs and restorative justice models without the resources to back it up, both human and monetary, was a fallacy. The provinces, given the option, would have preferred to keep the old bill. They would have simply asked the federal government for the money, the know-how and the support to put programs in place to make the existing system work.

I have worked in the justice system in administering the YOA. I think Quebec recognized very early on that although there are flaws in the Young Offenders Act there are ways to make it work. Quebec has set the standard and raised the bar in terms of its ability to work within the parameters of the old law.

It was a matter of giving more resources to provinces to allow them to fully administer programs, be innovative, make early interventions and set up programs for counselling. Such programs were aimed at putting youth on the right path as opposed to attempting after the fact to usher them through the criminal justice system.

I will touch for a moment on the upshot of what the new bill would do. It would cause incredible delay by introducing new procedures and processes pertaining to parole and early release, to the determination of violent versus non-violent offences, to new types of conditional sentences and to new types of tracking systems, so-called extrajudicial remedies that police officers would administer. All this would result in more appeals and more confusion over what the law means.

Judges came before the committee, judges with incredible experience in the criminal justice system and with the Young Offenders Act, who said they did not understand the bill and how it would work. They said they did not believe it would in any way improve the criminal justice system. They believed it would result in further delays.

The holding of young people to account, the protection of the public and the involvement of the state in rehabilitating young people would simply not occur. The resulting delays would perpetuate a system which is already confusing and frustrating for all participants, not only police, prosecutors, lawyers and judges but the young people themselves.

It will take an incredible amount of time to weed through the new bill to discern and comprehend what the drafters intended. It has a very academic feel as opposed to a practical, pragmatic and, dare I say, streamlined one which was likely the drafters' intent when they undertook the task of rewriting our youth criminal justice law.

The bill before us does the complete opposite. It is not streamlined. It is thicker. It is more cumbersome. It is more confusing. It adds new procedures. It adds new elements of delay.

I will conclude on this note. We all know the old legal maxim that justice delayed is justice denied. The bill would do just that. It would allow lawyers, on behalf of their young clients, to exploit these new procedures and cause lengthy delays that would deny the administration of justice. For that reason and those I have enunciated I cannot support the amendment. Nor do I support the bill.