Bill C-288 (Historical)

Kyoto Protocol Implementation Act

An Act to ensure Canada meets its global climate change obligations under the Kyoto Protocol

The purpose of this enactment is to ensure that Canada meets its global climate change obligations under the Kyoto Protocol. It requires the Minister of the Environment to establish an annual Climate Change Plan and to make regulations respecting climate change. It also requires the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy to advise the Minister — to the extent that it is within its purpose — on the effectiveness of the plans, and requires the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development to submit to the Speaker of the House of Commons a report of the progress in the implementation of the plans.

Price of Petroleum Products

[Gary Lunn, Conservative, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

They are hollering that no, they do not, but let me say this in a bit of fun. As I walked into the House tonight, the member for Mississauga—Erindale said, “Minister, are you going to raise gas prices or are you going to leave that to us?” In fairness, he is the natural resources critic and he was being kind of funny, but my father once said to me that in everything we say there is a little bit of truth. I would argue that it is not the member for Mississauga—Erindale who wants to raise the price of gasoline, but it definitely is his leader.

Bill C-288, the Liberals' own plan on the environment, wants to put a 60% tax on the price of gasoline. That would raise the price of gasoline today up to $2.25. Those are the facts.

Motions in Amendment

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank you for your wise ruling today and ask you to accept our accolades.

The reason this is important for us as parliamentarians is that what took place at the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development is something that all parliamentarians, regardless of political stripe or interest, should resist. The government's unwillingness to accept a private member's piece of legislation meant that it used a tactic that has never been known in the recorded history of this place: that of filibustering, in a sense, a private member's bill.

As was noted in a Speaker's ruling some weeks prior to this, the committees in this place must learn to function and govern themselves in an appropriate way. They must learn to conduct the will of Parliament and the will of Canadians who have sent us to this place to advocate on their behalf for good things to happen.

Bill C-377, with the four amendments that I will be addressing today, does exactly that. For the first time in Canadian law, the targets relating to climate change, the greenhouse gas emissions for this country, will be legislated into law, thereby prohibiting any government, this one or any future government, from resisting the will of Canadians, from resisting the inclination that we must do the right thing when it comes to climate change.

As for these amendments, the irony, I suppose, which my colleagues are well aware of although I am not sure that all government members are, is that when we ran into this impasse in committee, this filibuster presented by the Conservatives, it was around clause 10, which is a clause for accountability and transparency when dealing with greenhouse gases. That is all the clause said. This part of the bill said that the government must tell Canadians what it has done, what the record has been on climate change, where the successes and failures have been, and then also tell Canadians what the plans are and have that accountable to Canadians. That is where we hit the roadblock.

This is obviously ironic coming from the Conservatives, who spent a great deal of time and effort in the last Parliament and then in the lead-up to this one in their campaign, talking about transparency and accountability. When it came to facing a bill on the environment, on climate change, which is top of mind for Canadians, in the very section that says the government must be transparent and accountable the government chose to delay and deny the reality of what we are faced with.

The fact is that Canada as a nation, as an economy, is far off track with our own commitments, our international commitments, but also far off track with what the rest of the developed world is doing, which is to find a way to make our economy more efficient, to produce more green collar jobs, and to allow Canadians to feel assured about our environment's future and not have to continue to face the threat of irreversible climate change, which we are already seeing.

It is a moral question that the government has been unable to face. It is a question of ethics that the government is unwilling to consider. In its two and a half long years in the House, following up on the 13 long years in government of the previous regime--too many--the government has been unable to effectively address the issue of climate change.

New Democrats, under the leadership of the member for Toronto—Danforth, have finally presented a reasonable, considered piece of legislation that will allow the country to move forward on this critical issue.

The actual amendments dealing with this bill are I think quite instructive. This bill, like all bills by the time they reach their final stages and final processes, originated some two years ago. The final four amendments to this bill deal with lessons learned over two years. They are lessons learned at the special legislative committee on the clean air and climate change act. That act was a flawed government bill that the NDP rewrote and for which it presented the best thinking on issues related to the environment at the time.

This was learned from events with respect to Bill C-288, when the government found a way to again try to put the kibosh on what was happening. We learned again from this bill.

Mr. Speaker, please correct me if I am wrong procedurally, but I have just been handed a note about splitting my time with the member for Outremont.

[Warren Newman]

Any mandate must take into account the fact that we live in a federation made up of provinces and that municipalities fall under provincial jurisdiction. Even federal documents must sometimes refer to the country as a whole. Nevertheless, I do not think we can go beyond the scope of this act, because we do not have the authority to do that. The constitutionality of such a move could perhaps also be challenged, although I do not want to get into that. This issue is already being debated in the case of bills C-377 and C-288.

How far can the federal government go in terms of intervening in areas under provincial jurisdiction? I do not think this bill attempts to do that. Rather, it applies more to the workings of federal institutions. It is up to Parliament to enact legislation for the peace, order and good government of Canada and its federal institutions.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

This refers back to clauses 5 and 6 about the direction and targets. This is another tool to allow the government of the day to make the regulatory requirements. It allows the government to use as many mechanisms as are legal and constitutional, considering all the amendments we've made to the bill, to go beyond just making regulatory amendments.

Again, this is language that is borrowed from Bill C-288, which has already passed through the House. This uses solid constitutional language that was raised by some of our expert witnesses.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

I think he's attempting to be good-natured about it, so I'm not really bothered much at this time. I'll carry on.

When you look at Bill C-288, some things Bill C-377 should be doing are the kinds of things we see our government doing—the things it has projected ahead in Bill C-288 and the costing for them. The purpose of Bill C-288 is to examine the economic implications. We don't have any proper costing in Bill C-377 as it stands, and that's the difference. We have something of a costing document here in Bill C-288, looking at the economic implications of it. My colleague Mr. Warawa, right at the top of the meeting here, wants this to be properly costed. It's the big rub here; it's the big problem with the bill before us now. That was done in Bill C-288. We don't find that in Bill C-377. But if we could get something like that with its thoroughness, it is the kind of thing necessary as a prelude to moving or making any kind of progress on any bills before this committee.

The objective of the act requiring us to meet our Kyoto obligations over our commitment period from 2008-12 is real and creditable. In December 1997, Canada and 160 other countries that are members of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change met in Kyoto to conclude a protocol on the convention to limit emissions of greenhouse gases, or GHGs. The resulting agreement, as regular members of this committee know.... Mr. Pearson doesn't sit here regularly, but I think he follows these issues or attempts to keep on top of them as well. The Kyoto Protocol entered into force on February 16, 2005. It was signed by Canada on April 29, 1998, and ratified in 2002.

Under the terms of that Kyoto Protocol, 38 industrialized countries, known as annex 1 countries, committed to cutting their emissions of greenhouse gases, between 2008-12, to levels that were at least 5% below 1990 levels.

In terms of individual country targets, Canada is required to reduce emissions to a level 6% below 1990 levels by 2008-12. As a group, the European Union has a target of 8% reduction from its 1990 levels. The United States, which did not ratify the protocol, had a target of 7% reduction from the 1990 levels, while several other countries, one of them being Australia, which also did not ratify, was permitted to let its emissions continue to grow above 1990 levels, but at a reduced rate of growth.

China and India—and we've made much of that in this committee—two of the largest and fastest-growing economies in the world, both ratified the Kyoto Protocol. They're not required to reduce their emissions under that current agreement.

So that's the global context.

The science underlying climate change tells us that there are human-caused emissions in GHGs. I think that's what members around this table like Mr. Cullen want to get at. I think the good intent of all the members is to get at this issue and do what we can about human-caused emissions of GHGs, resulting primarily from the combustion of fossil fuels for energy. That's a significant driver or escalator of global warming.

Global energy use trends are therefore at the centre of the issue of climate change and are tied to global economic growth projections. In fact, according to world energy outlook 2006 of the International Energy Agency, world energy demand will increase by 53%—and this is important—from 2004 levels by 2030, with 70% of the increase coming from these developing countries. Similar energy and emissions growth projections are made in the IEO 2006 by the energy information administration.

There are charts of that kind of stuff that we can provide for the committee if they so wish.

According to the EIA, fossil fuels remain the dominant source of world energy, accounting for about 83%.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

That's fair. I don't want to offend members here. Far be it from me to do that on something so crucial as this issue.

I think it's true that Canadians want some practical solutions. To have something kind of vague, and again, as we said, we've repeated that, and that's for emphasis here, of course the ambiguity of Bill C-377....

I think we want the balanced kinds of solutions to environmental protection and economic growth. It means that those economic decisions are environmentally responsible. They absolutely have to be.

Back on February 14, 2007, the House of Commons passed Bill C-288, an act to ensure Canada meets its global climate change obligations under the Kyoto Protocol. Section 3 of that bill stated that the purpose of that act is to ensure that Canada takes effective and timely action to meet its obligations under the Kyoto Protocol and help address the problem of global climate change.

If Bill C-288 is approved by the Senate, subsection 7(1) requires that within 180 days of the act coming into force, the Governor in Council will ensure that Canada fully meets those obligations under article 3, paragraph 1 of the Kyoto Protocol, by making, amending, or repealing—

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

It was getting a bit distracting, but I'll do my best to carry on here in the midst of that.

We need to take pretty seriously the air emissions in our province and our country and the effects of climate change. If we don't get ahead of that and deal with it in practical ways, it could be pretty serious for our province.

A warming climate is expected to increase both the number and the severity of thunder storms, heat waves, and drought that would cause damage to our crops and endanger life and property as well.

Going back to our plan, our regulatory framework, Bill C-288 I think would have been a much superior approach to be taking. We should have had some pretty good cooperation with that, instead of this Bill C-377, which wasn't properly costed and is constitutionally suspect. Others around the table are aware of that as well.

In our approach--as opposed to this Bill C-377, again--there were mandatory targets, real results. We don't see that here. And Mr. Hogg has pointed that out, the vagueness and the ambiguity of it.

In our approach, which would have been the better one to go with, reducing emissions of greenhouse gases, air pollution.... It's not a matter of choice for industry. You can't leave it up to them to decide if they want in or not. It is compulsory. It has to be. Our plan, our regulatory framework, would set that kind of compulsion, the mandatory targets for reduction of industrial greenhouse gases that cause climate change. Those targets were stringent and were going to be tightened every single year, so as a result we would start to see those absolute reductions. Again, with Bill C-377 we don't have that, we don't have the preciseness. It's vague, it's ambiguous, and it gives far too much power and too much reach in respect to its constitutional intrusion, as well, whereas these industrial emission targets, the ones from our plan, combined with other actions, practical actions announced to date to fight climate change, would put us on track for that 20% absolute reduction of Canada's greenhouse gases compared to 2006 levels by the year 2020.

I appeal to Mr. Cullen to look in terms of the seriousness and the practicality and pragmatism of those kinds of regulations. That would reduce the emissions of pollutants that cause smog and acid rain by up to 55% as soon as 2012--compared to 2006 levels. As well, I think when you're looking at a plan—and that's not at all anywhere here in Bill C-377—you need to have flexible tools for compliance. You don't get there overnight, but you need to make it mandatory, compulsory, and allow the kinds of creativity--I guess I would say--and the flexibility in terms of the tools of compliance to get the job done.

There's no doubt that in any of these measures, and in terms of our regulatory measures, as well, there would be a period of adjustment for industry, because this is pretty hard stuff, it's tough stuff, but it's required. You need then an achievable plan that does not sacrifice jobs in Saskatchewan.

The concern with this particular Bill C-377 is that in fact we will have significant economic hurt and impact. Counter-intuitively, if you will, we'll hurt the economy such that we won't be able to do the good things in terms of the environment, the clean up, and the good clean water, land, and air that we need.

By way of the regulatory regime that we were proposing, giving industry the flexible tools to meet their targets, companies being able to choose the most cost-effective way to comply--which includes making real reductions in their own facilities, taking advantage of emissions trading, and investing in new technologies--all of those things are within the basket of what they can do to get the job done and to meet their targets.

Companies will also be able to invest in a technology fund that will deliver greenhouse gas reductions, now and in the future. I think technology is pretty crucial to ensure that we make the progress against climate change, and the confirmed guiding principle of that fund is that it will not be used as a mechanism for the inter-regional transfer of wealth and resources. That's a big concern to us in our province.

Moreover, the provincial technology fund may be accredited as compliant as long as they meet the federal requirements. That fund will be used to finance further research on carbon capture and storage technologies that show a lot of promise in Saskatchewan.

I was very pleased about the progress we're going to be able to make as a result of the budget announcement yesterday of some $240 million for carbon sequestration. For my province, that was a major, significant step forward, not only for us but for our country. The benefits will accrue to elsewhere across this nation. Some critics might complain about the cost of these measures for Saskatchewan's industry, but they are more forward-looking measures. Some see the glass as half full and some as half empty, but we need to be looking for and recognizing those new opportunities in Saskatchewan. And it's come our way already in terms of the $240 million for carbon sequestration.

In some sectors, it's going to mean that industry will have to seize the opportunity to improve competitiveness by becoming more innovative. For Saskatchewan's oil and gas sector, that's the case. It will mean their developing and adopting cleaner technologies, and so be it. They do it, and the job gets done. The oil and gas industry--or as Mr. Layton likes to refer to it, big oil and big “ass”, I think that's what he calls it—in my province has thrived on competition. The entrepreneurial spirit along our border with Alberta, down in the south of the province in the Estevan and Weyburn area and across through Swift Current, as well, has driven its growth and has responded to challenges by finding those necessary innovative solutions.

In our regulatory regime, as opposed, again, to Bill C-377, Saskatchewan's electricity generating industry will also have to make changes, which we acknowledge, to achieve the required reductions by adopting cleaner technology to improve its competitiveness. And we'll probably be able to market that abroad, as well.

We've already seen those two sectors cooperate on an exciting and innovative project in Weyburn, where the carbon dioxide emissions from an electricity generating station that uses clean-coal technology are injected back into the ground. And as I said, with some $240 million in the budget yesterday, they can explore that and develop that even more. That's one of the largest climate change research projects in the world. It will help us understand how we can use underground storage of greenhouse gases to address climate change for our nation.

Some of the other measures that I think are significant and that, again, are omitted and not referenced in any way in Bill C-377, we're taking action on. Our approach is to reduce the emissions causing air pollution from cars, recreational vehicles, trucks, trains, and marine engines. We are taking action to use products, such as light bulbs, dishwashers, refrigerators, air conditioners, and commercial boilers, that use energy much more efficiently. We want to have efficient energy, because as a result, we'll have less wasted energy and less air pollution. I think we need to, without question, for any and all and for those that suffer allergies and those that have other air-related ailments.

We need to work to improve that, especially, as well, for indoor air. Saskatchewan is a cold enough province that a good many months of the year we spend inside. Consequently, for the air we breathe inside our homes, our places of work, our businesses, the malls, and so on, it's crucial that we also deal with that and have the regulations that will address that issue. In Saskatchewan we spend a lot more time indoors than they do, maybe, even in some other provinces. So actions to improve indoor air quality are very important for us. Again, this bill has nothing specific in respect of that.

I think the federal government needs to be doing that careful collaborative work with the provinces, recognizing the significant actions the provinces and territories are taking. They need to be acknowledged and credited or applauded for all they do to promote clean air and to address climate change. Those efforts and initiatives need to be encouraged.

Again, from the federal point of view, there is nothing referenced to this in Bill C-377; but we need to have that kind of partnership, that working together, with the provinces and territories to avoid duplication of effort and to ensure we get maximum environmental benefits with minimum administrative and cost burdens for the industry.

Mr. Chair, I think the noise level is getting up a little bit. I'm finding it a bit uncomfortable again.

[Professor Stewart Elgie, Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, Associate Director, Institute of the Environment, As an Individual]

Thank you., I will be speaking in English today but I will try to answer questions in French if you speak slowly.

I am a professor at the University of Ottawa, Faculty of Law. I specialize in environmental and constitutional law. I'm also a recovering litigator. In my previous life I was an environmental lawyer, and I ended up arguing three constitutional environmental cases at the Supreme Court of Canada, including Hydro-Québec, and was fortunate enough to come out on the winning side of each of them, which is perhaps why I no longer litigate. You want to get out while you're ahead.

In any event, we've been asked to speak about the constitutional aspects of this bill today.

Let me, like Peter Hogg, begin by jumping to my conclusion and then work backwards from that.

My conclusion is that I would agree with the others that in all likelihood this bill, as currently drafted, wouldn't pass muster under the criminal law power. My view is there is a better than average chance it would be upheld under the peace, order, and good government power, and I can come back and say a little bit about why I think that, but the most important point I want to speak to is what could be done to the bill to improve its chances of passing muster constitutionally. I think there are some fairly specific doable things that would increase its likelihood of success.

I say that because there are two things about lawyers. The chair has pointed out one, which is that we tend to talk too long. The other is we tend to disagree, and if that were not the case we wouldn't have a profession and there wouldn't be two sides to every case. You'll get different views as to which side of the constitutional line it will fall on, but the important point is what this committee can do to make this bill more likely to be upheld as constitutional, and that's what I'm going to spend a bit of time on.

Very quickly, on the criminal law power, the other witnesses have spoken to the need to flesh out what the regulation-making powers look like, to put more flesh onto them, and I think that would be a good idea and would improve its chances.

On the peace, order, and good government power, I agree with Professor Hogg that the Supreme Court of Canada requires that a law define subject matter in a way that is single, distinct, and indivisible, to use their terms. You have to reduce a subject to its basic elements. The federal government couldn't say it legislates over the environment, that it legislates over all pollution. You have to define it in terms that are relatively narrow.

My view would be that addressing the control of greenhouse gases is reducing it as far as it can be reduced. There are only six greenhouse gases. An international treaty defines those six and the international treaty requires us to address all six. They are a fairly finite list and not never-ending. The Supreme Court has said the fact that an international treaty defines subject matter as a distinct matter is strong evidence. It is not conclusive, but it is strong evidence that will be found to be a distinct and single subject matter for constitutional purposes. In my view, it probably would be found to meet the test of single and distinct.

The biggest test the court uses in measuring whether something is single is whether or not the failure of one province to address that subject effectively would impact other provinces or other countries. Certainly in the case of climate change, the failure of any province to address a subject effectively would have far-reaching effects on other provinces and other nations.

We could say a lot more, but let me jump to what is the more important point, which is what the things are that one might think of doing that would move this up the scale of constitutionality and make it likely to be upheld. Let me point out a bunch of them that I think are all quite doable.

One is that one needs to define the regulation-making power. There seems to be agreement on that point. You don't need to look far to do that. Look to what the court has already upheld. The court has upheld the Canadian Environmental Protection Act as valid criminal law legislation, so one could look to the kind of regulation-making powers that exist under CEPA and simply incorporate those. You don't need to reinvent the wheel.

An even simpler way of doing it would be to look at Bill C-288, which I'll call the KPIA as a short form for purposes of referring to the bill. It has a defined set of regulation-making powers that are drawn from CEPA already. They are a distillation. They are less extensive than CEPA's. There are about six, and CEPA has about 20, but you could simply graft those. They talk about setting targets, setting limits, emissions trading systems. You don't need to reinvent the wheel. You could simply graft the kinds of powers that have been used in other statutes that have been upheld or recently passed by this Parliament.

The second thing: I agree that defining greenhouse gases, to make it clear it's only those six, would go a long way to putting boundaries on the subject matter, and again, the language is there in Bill C-288. It defines them as those six gases. You can simply graft them. You don't need to reinvent the wheel.

Third, I agree again, people have said that we should make reference to and tie into the existing regulatory structure under CEPA, which has been upheld by the Supreme Court of Canada as valid. That could be done very easily in the regulation-making section simply by saying, “the Governor in Council may make regulations under this or any other act of Parliament”. Simply add the words “or under any other act”, and all of a sudden you enable them to use the CEPA regulatory machinery to enact regulations to achieve these goals. It's a much simpler way than having to write the whole CEPA statute out again.

The fourth one I would recommend is that in order to improve the chances of constitutionality under the peace, order, and good government power, the preamble should simply say that greenhouse gases cross national and provincial borders and are a matter of global concern. Again, that language is in the preamble to Bill C-288. Those are the key words the court looks at, and I can tell you, even in the Hydro-Québec case, where the court found that CEPA didn't fall within peace, order, and good government, they said that had it been delineated to deal only with subjects that had an extra-provincial impact, they might have reached a different conclusion. So defining greenhouse gases as a problem that has extra-provincial and extra-national impacts will greatly improve the chances of constitutional success.

By way of clarifying provincial powers, I would recommend that you take another section from Bill C-288, which makes it clear that nothing in the statute in any way restricts or reduces the ability of provinces to legislate to address greenhouse gases. You'll find that in subsection 6(2) of the KPIA. Again, this confirms that provinces have parallel power.

Lastly—I'm probably over my five minutes and the chairman will chastise me for that—one thing that hasn't come up, which I would comment on, is that this act obligates the Governor in Council to achieve all of the targets it has set out by way of regulations. The reality of it is that Canada will meet its greenhouse gas emissions targets not only through regulations but also through other instruments such as spending, taxes, and federal-provincial agreements. So again I would suggest borrowing a section from Bill C-288, subsection 7(3), which says that in making regulations to meet these targets, the Governor in Council may take into account reductions that are achieved by other measures the Government of Canada has taken—spending, taxes, federal-provincial agreements—provided it specifies what the expected reductions are under those other measures. In other words, don't obligate Canada to meet all of its 80% reduction targets simply through regulatory measures. Allow other measures to be there, too, as long as there is rigour to make sure we get to the target.

Last of all, I would simply point out that there was some comment about the fact that getting to minus 25% by 2020 will be a long way to go. It is indeed a long way to go, but since this bill was drafted, Canada has agreed with other developed nations at Bali that this is the target we have agreed to in principle. So Canada, at the Bali negotiations, has agreed with the conference of the parties action plan of negotiating towards reaching reductions in the range of 25% by 2020. So this is now in line with our internationally negotiated commitments, at least in principle.

Thank you. I would be happy to entertain questions.

Tackling Violent Crime Act

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is increasingly apparent that the Liberals have been misleading Canadians regarding their stance on the tackling violent crime act.

Let us consider the facts. Although they voted for the bill, some Liberals have talked openly about repealing sections of it if they return to power.

At every opportunity, the unelected and unaccountable Liberal senators have obstructed initiatives to protect Canadian families, while waving politically motivated nonsense like Bill C-288 through in mere seconds.

And now it seems just a matter of time until the Liberal Party forces an election, leaving this important bill to die in the Senate.

There is a simple reason that getting tough on crime was prominent in both the Conservative election platform and in our Speech from the Throne: it matters to Canadian families.

In a couple of minutes, the Liberal leader will stand up, cheered on by his team of Liberal lemmings. I hope he will use this opportunity to tell the House that in his long-awaited first act of leadership he is demanding that his unelected Liberal senators stop playing political games with the safety of Canadians.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

On a point of order, in order to know if a bill is good or not you need something to compare it to. Comparing it to Bill C-30 or Bill C-288 is a proper line of questioning to determine whether the government has improved or not--to go forward or back. I think it's a fair question in this regard.

If you have a piece of legislation before you, what can you compare it to; what can you analyze it against? I think Mr. McGuinty's questions are in line with what's happening here today.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I'm trying to elucidate, as one witness has said, that it's fine to set targets, but what we've not seen in this bill, and in the whole plan that has cost millions and millions of dollars to communicate to Canadians, is a single shred of evidence that the analysis that needs to backstop this bill and the government's own plan is simply not there.

I want to ask the witnesses another question about analysis, which relates again to this bill on the table. Mr. Stern conducted a global analysis, an econometric analysis with distributive effects, and as you say in your brief, Mr. Ogilvie, he talks about a 1% GDP cost.

I think we all remember the shock and awe communications strategy that was put out by the government on Bill C-288, that the sky was going to fall if we actually implemented Bill C-288. Have any of you seen any analysis on the numbers put forward by the government on Bill C-288?

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I was going to say that I recognize a lot of these overheads from Bill C-30 and was wondering how they in fact apply to the specificity of Bill C-377. Thank you for clarifying that.

Can I ask both of you to comment where Mr. Bramley left off?

Mr. Bramley, earlier the parliamentary secretary raised questions about you and about whether your fingerprints were all over this bill, as he implied they were all over Bill C-288. I think he's trying to draw a connection; I'm not sure whether he's trying to make a more pointed statement about it. But it's curious that it falls hard on the heels of the tongue-lashing that environmental NGOs received yesterday from the minister in a very public way about their being responsible for Canada's situation today.

I'd like to ask you both, though, about the comments Mr. Bramley made about science.

Mr. Bramley, you said your Case for Deep Reductions report and Bill C-377 were aligned with science, that this was a science-based approach.

Can you help us both, please, understand, in the wake of the comments made by Professor Weaver two weeks ago about the government not relying on the science—in fact, to quote him, he said he thought the government was drawing its scientific inspiration from an Ouija board.... The IPCC president said yesterday in Bali that the government is not following science, certainly not informing its negotiating position with science.

Can both of you help us understand, in the case of Bill C-377, and in the case of your overheads, Ms. Donnelly, and of your report, Mr. Bramley, is the government's climate change plan, which is the foundation we're standing upon in Bali today—the “Turning the Corner” plan—in fact informed with science, and is it based on the consensual science that now exists around the world?

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

He was involved with Bill C-377 and Bill C-288, with no costing. Are you using the targets that were from this document?

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Is that why there is a similar part in the bill? You address clause 13, which deals with requiring the environment commissioner to be involved. You suggest that, as in Bill C-288, you'll be looking at having it amended as it was in Bill C-288.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Okay. Are you aware that Mr. Bramley was also involved with Bill C-288?