Bill C-31 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Canada Elections Act and the Public Service Employment Act

This enactment amends the Canada Elections Act to improve the integrity of the electoral process by reducing the opportunity for electoral fraud or error. It requires that electors, before voting, provide one piece of government-issued photo identification showing their name and address or two pieces of identification authorized by the Chief Electoral Officer showing their name and address, or take an oath and be vouched for by another elector.
It also amends the Canada Elections Act to, among other things, make operational changes to improve the accuracy of the National Register of Electors, facilitate voting and enhance communications with the electorate.
It amends the Public Service Employment Act to permit the Public Service Commission to make regulations to extend the maximum term of employment of casual workers.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I too would like to thank you, not only for the work you've done in your capacity as Chief Electoral Officer but also for your work before that as a public servant. Those of us who are from Ottawa will know you have worked in the public service for quite a while and have done stellar work. I've always been impressed by that, and I say that not only on behalf of the people in my party but also, I think, on behalf of the people in Ottawa in general.

I also know the work you've done internationally is well known. My brother happened to be in the former Yugoslavia and got to know people in the international community. He was part of the NDI group that went over there. Your name has been well noted in the international community, so I'm glad to see you'll be moving on to a global stage. I hope we'll be able to support you in any way we can, because I think it is important.

The next step for Canada to take is to help build strong democratic frameworks in the rest of the world. I think that really is our role.

I wish you well. We will miss you. Personally, I would have hoped you would have been around for a little longer, with a couple of things we're dealing with.

I would like to touch on a couple of things, and that has to do with Bill C-31. You had mentioned to my colleague.... I was just talking to Mr. Godin about the concerns raised with birthdate information. I will be very specific.

When I wrote to the Privacy Commissioner on this--and she wrote me back last week--she stated the following. I'd just like your take on it.

Is the problem of voter fraud so serious and sufficiently widespread to require the use of additional personal information?

That's the first thing. And we talked about having voter identifiers. I think you mentioned to Mr. Godin that it might be helpful to have the year of birth. But she then says that if it is a serious problem.... Do we have a problem here? That's her first point. And,

If it is a serious problem, is it necessary to provide polling clerks with the date of birth or can the same objective be achieved using less detailed information?

To this, I think you would say yes.

In light of what the bill--it's gone through the House, now it's going to the Senate--has in it, amended, with date of birth information to be available to all polling clerks but also to be shared with all political parties, is it your fervent belief that was the right tool to use to deal with voter fraud? I should say potential voter fraud, because we've heard from you there were only four cases in the last three elections that we're aware of. I believe we've gone too far with it, in terms of the use of personal information. But what would suffice, in your estimation?

[Jay Hill, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for appearing today, Mr. Kingsley.

I want to pick up on the sentiments being expressed by all colleagues around the room and offer my sincere thanks and congratulations. I did that privately before the meeting, but I'd like to say that publicly.

As Mr. Godin indicated, we haven't always agreed. Sometimes things became quite heated when you appeared before the committee on difficult issues you had to deal with and the committee had to struggle with. In fact I would suggest you're probably sitting there in a bit of shock that you have nothing but accolades coming at you, as opposed to some very pointed questions.

All that's in the past. I do sincerely wish you all the very best in your future endeavours. There's no doubt in my mind that given the skills and qualities you've shown in your 17 years as a CEO for our nation, you will continue to do great things in whatever you undertake.

Having said that, I'd like to pose a couple of questions. The first one Monsieur Godin touched on, which is Bill C-31.

I've always believed there's a delicate balance in any democracy regarding the right of every citizen to vote. Hopefully every citizen in our democracy believes that fervently and passionately. Having said that, I also strongly believe that every citizen has a responsibility as well. It isn't up to governments or Elections Canada to go to inordinate lengths to ensure that every single citizen is on the voters list. I believe there is responsibility that comes with citizenship, if you will. I think that all too often we take our rights for granted in this country and we don't pay much attention to our responsibilities.

Certainly you, in the time you have spent internationally, and the many colleagues who have served as election monitors in other countries, have seen that other countries' citizens--especially perhaps at a time when these rights have been denied to them--take their responsibility very seriously. I've heard stories of people who walked for hours in the blazing sun and stood in line to cast a ballot. Those people will go to inordinate lengths to ensure they can vote.

As we're parting company, I would like you to express your views on that delicate balance, which all of us recognize exists, between our right as citizens to vote but also our responsibility to take some personal responsibility to ensure that as individuals we protect that right.

The other issue is whether there is more that Canada can be doing internationally. Is there more than what we're already doing to promote and assist democracies, whether it's our efforts in Afghanistan or your efforts in Iraq and things like that, that you see we could do to promote that in future initiatives?

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

I'm also touched by your comments about the fact that I was available to serve people. Sometimes people criticized us for being available on Friday and Sunday evening to do certain things. I learned when I was the CEO of a hospital that one has to be available to serve people at all hours of the day or night. That is why my telephone number has always been in the telephone book.

When I announced that I was be resigning, I received some phone calls from Canadians—and I will take the liberty to make this comment—who told me how much they appreciated the fact that when they telephoned during an election, I was the person who answered the phone. They wanted to talk to me, and I did just that. So I find it tremendously touching when ordinary Canadians tell me something like that.

As regards the impact of Bill C-31, I have already said what I had to say about the percentages involved. I think the committee will obviously want to look into this matter at some point with Mr. Mayrand. You will need to show some imagination to move forward on this. Perhaps you will find a solution in this type of document. Personally, I have not found a solution to the problem so far.

However, as I said, I was rather surprised by the amendment made by the committee following my appearance. That is not what I was expecting. I thought you would stick with the proof of identity—on that, I was in complete agreement.

As regards the voter information card, there was a project—and we will have to check on this—to put the cards into an envelope with a window, so that we could have even more control over what happened to them. We would have to check how far that project got, I do not remember that. However, I thought the committee did have a good idea. I know that something was done in this regard, but I do not know how far the project got. The cost is minimal, and the integrity of the process is the important thing.

As regards the birth date, the committee made some amendments there as well to make this information more available to the representatives of the parties. I am wondering whether this is really a good idea, because we worked very hard to control the distribution of the list of electors, so much so that, as you know, some information is included in the list provided to members of each party each year. It is specific to each party. In other words, we send the Bloc Québécois the information that is added and that enables us to determine who provided an electoral list specific to the party. It meant we could call up someone in the party and tell that person that the leak came from his or her shop. We could also call up a member of Parliament and say—although I do not think this ever happened—that the leak of the list came from his or her office. People wanted this information to be protected. That was one of the main objectives when the register was established in the act, which was passed on December 12, 1996. We attached a great deal of importance to this.

During an election campaign, it is more difficult to do something of this type. I'm being quite frank here—it is more difficult. When it comes to sharing this type of information, the committee will want to review whether this was the right way of proceeding.

Initially, we proposed that a birth year be shared to provide another check on the individual who comes in to vote. If the person looks 30 but the information shows that he or she is 50, the deputy returning officer can ask some questions, and can even push the questioning even further.

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley, Former Chief Electoral Officer, As an Individual]

Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank the committee for providing me with this opportunity to appear before you as an ordinary citizen.

In all seriousness, it has always touched me profoundly to come to this committee and render account for what Elections Canada did and did not do. It's in the same spirit that I approach this opportunity.

I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the excellent letter you sent to me on behalf of the committee. I shall cherish it, in light of the 17 years to the day that I spent in the position. When I gave my eight weeks' notice, I wasn't conscious of the fact that it was going to be exactly 17 years.

On Bill C-31 and the international scene, one must remember that when going to another country to provide advice, one is not selling a system or selling Canadianism; one is sharing values. When it's a newly emerging democracy or a democracy that used to exist but was taken over, smitten, and is being brought back, there's an element of distrust at the core of what they're trying to do. That is the reason why there's such a fundamental difference between what Canada has and what new democracies and newly re-emerging democracies usually give themselves.

When the Iraqis visited Canada during the election, they were surprised that there was no need for ID at the polls, because the international community, the United Nations, had told them they needed that. These were board members from the Iraqi electoral commission. Some of them went back with the idea that they wanted to look at that again. I'm sharing that with you because it's something they had never thought of, but they knew they had something to overcome. That is an important difference.

I want to add one thing about Bill C-31 that I think needs to be said. Parliament has decided to address the question of ID at the polls. I've always said that was fair, but proof of address at the polls may prove to be more problematic, and you'll want to review with my successor how that's going to work.

The experience Canada has is limited in that respect. In the city of Toronto, if you don't have proof of address you can swear yourself in at the poll; you don't need to have somebody else in line who's able to do it. From the statistics they provided to us, about 5% of the people had to go through that process. At the federal level, would 5% of the people have to go back home to get proof of address that they did not bring with them to the polls?

So I wanted to share that with the committee. You might want to look at that in more detail with my successor, because some of this research only came in after you put together Bill C-31.

I also want to mention that the letter on the pieces of ID recommended by the Chief Electoral Officer is ready to come to you. My commitment was that it would come here the moment Bill C-31 received third reading. It wasn't supposed to come before that because we did not know how Bill C-31 was going to come out in third reading. That letter is ready, and obviously the people at Elections Canada will have to decide about sending it and when. All the work was done in that respect, and it's just waiting to be sent and for your review.

I would look at the address situation as a committee. If 5% or even only 1% of the people don't bring the necessary proof of address with them, how do you address that? Do you send them back home to get another piece of ID? Right now they will have to find someone in line to attest to who they are, and that person will need to have all the necessary proof of ID and address as well.

So I just thought I'd bring that to your attention.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our guests today.

I actually wanted to shine a little light on something that isn't in the brief here, but it has happened most recently. It's a bill that went through Parliament and is on its way to the Senate, and that of course is Bill C-31, which touches on privacy issues.

It's interesting that while we're trying to deal with privacy here, we seem to be opening up opportunities for people who want to exploit privacy in other places in this precinct. That's because in Bill C-31, An Act to amend the Canada Elections Act and the Public Service Employment Act, in the original legislation, they provided birthdate information for purposes of verification of voters. I wrote to you about this concern I had, and that we have in our party, and the fact that it was then amended to further extend that information to political parties. I wrote to you on that; you sent me a letter last week, and I thank you for that.

I just want to clear something up. As recently as Tuesday, in a question in the House, I asked the government if they would be--

The House resumed from February 16 consideration of the motion that Bill C-31, An Act to amend the Canada Elections Act and the Public Service Employment Act, be read the third time and passed, and of the motion that this question be now put.

Canada Elections Act

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, they can run but they cannot hide.

The electoral lists are not secure documents. Often, all it takes to activate a credit card is a name, address and date of birth. Now the Conservatives plan to give birthdate information to anyone who asks.

This big brother bill does nothing to protect the integrity of the voting system. All it takes is support from the government.

Will the Prime Minister take this matter seriously and scrap the peeping Tom clause in Bill C-31, yes or no?

[Marc Mayrand]

I'm sorry I cannot give you a more specific answer to your question. I know that Bill C-31 provides for a random voter number. That is about all I know. I really have no idea about the context of this provision or the use that will be made of this number. This is something I will have to find out about as soon as I assume the position, in order to see how we will go about implementing all of this.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, Mr. Mayrand, and welcome to the committee.

I would like to follow up on a question Mr. Proulx asked about the way in which complaints are dealt with. I think the appointment of returning officers through a competition, which will take into account merit, will probably eliminate some of the complaints Elections Canada receives.

I would like you to give me some reassurance about one aspect of the way in which complaints are handled. When the Chief Electoral Officer receives complaints from candidates or returning officers, I would like some reassurance that they will actually be investigated. At one point, the former Chief Electoral Officer told this committee that he no longer made any recommendations about the way the complaints service should manage the complaints, because it was of absolutely no use to do that.

I hope that as Chief Electoral Officer, these investigations will be pursued, so that these complaints which recur from one election to the next in some ridings will be settled once and for all.

I know that we have to give you a chance, because you are just about to assume this position. A number of amendments have been made to the Canada Elections Act through various pieces of legislation, such as Bill C-31.

Have you heard about the introduction of a voter number? If so, how would you plan to implement that, if an election were to be called tomorrow, for example?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Privacy is a consideration in the greater public good, but you say you want the democratic process to apply. I'm referring once again to Bill C-31, which provides that in future people will only be able to vouch for one other person. Not for a group of individuals, as was the case formerly.

I would like you to look into this as well and come back to the committee to discuss this matter. I would appreciate that. I do not know whether you understand what I mean. Let me give you an example.

[Marc Mayrand]

I understand that Bill C-31 has been passed at the third reading stage in the House of Commons.

Has it not been passed at the third reading stage in the House of Commons?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

No, Mr. Chair, with all respect, I disagree with you. When we had Bill C-31, we brought the former director of Elections Canada to bring his opinion on Bill C-31. We brought the Privacy Commissioner to give their opinion. Here is a person who will undertake a duty that is very important, and I think I'd like to know what he feels about it.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Even though you say that this is the will of Parliament, in light of the fact that you may be the next Chief Electoral Officer, you are entitled to your opinion, but you do have a significant responsibility.

On the one hand, there's the need to protect people's privacy, and on the other, all democracies are required to recognize people who come in to vote. But at the same time, the two considerations must go hand-in-hand.

With respect to Bill C-31, would you recommend that we wait, that we give you an opportunity to review it and to come back to the committee before it is passed by Parliament?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

But under Bill C-31, the birth date must be provided, on the list of citizens, to all the political parties.

[Marc Mayrand]

If I understand it, there must be a balance between facilitating voter participation and maintaining the integrity of the voting system.

In order to maintain the integrity of the vote, from what I understand of Bill C-31, we must be able to identify voters who want to exercise their franchise on voting day.

Bill C-31 specifically requires that a birth date be entered on the list of electors. This appears to me to be the will of Parliament. I would not want to create the illusion that I could change that will; however, my concern would be to ensure that this information is used only as required in order to facilitate the vote.