Bill S-211 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Criminal Code (lottery schemes)

Criminal Code

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

moved that Bill S-211, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (lottery schemes), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, it is an honour and a privilege for me to sponsor a bill originating in the Senate.

I would like to pay tribute to Senator Jean Lapointe who has worked all his life to improve people’s quality of life. Bill S-211 will in fact improve people’s quality of life. Senator Lapointe has fought all his life to combat injustice. He had problems with alcohol himself and he overcame those difficulties. He has been particularly active in combating the appalling ravages of gambling. Bill S-211 is in fact a way to contain one of the most horrible plagues on our youth and on all our fellow Canadians. I am talking about video lottery terminals.

There are video lottery terminals in bars and in restaurants. We all have a family member, a friend or someone with a serious problem because of video lottery terminals. I was a minister in the past and I am now a member of Parliament. The role of a legislator is not merely to make speeches and answer questions. A legislator must play a meaningful role in the quality of people’s lives.

Our role is precisely to make sure that we create an environment that makes it possible for our fellow citizens to have a decent quality of life. Every time we have an opportunity to do that, without managing their lives for them, we must give them guidance and an environment that will help them to prosper in society.

There is a serious problem at present from which too many people and young people are suffering; it is called pathological gambling. The distress we see is serious. We have even heard of suicides. Video lottery terminals affect more than 90% of people who have a gambling problem. That is why this high rate of dependency must be contained. We must find a way, together, to make it possible for these people to have a better quality of life.

This bill amends the Criminal Code. It will give us a means to contain the ravages of something that, as I said earlier, causes countless problems for our fellow Canadians. This bill will not ban video lottery terminals, however. Whenever we try to ban something, we get into the whole question of organized crime and the black market. The purpose of this bill is to confine video lottery terminals to race courses, casinos and associated places like the Hippo Club, which are all managed, and managed only by the provincial governments.

I could produce scores of statistics to show what a scourge compulsive gambling is and how it causes serious problems for Canadians.

In his presentations on video lottery terminals, Dr. Robert Ladouceur, a psychologist at Université Laval and one of the leading researchers in the field of compulsive gambling, has stated that 95% of the people he treats for problems related to pathological gambling indicate that video lottery terminals are their preferred game of chance.

According to the Maison Claude Bilodeau, which opened in the fall of 1999 and is dedicated to helping compulsive gamblers, 94% of the requests it has received since its inception are specifically related to the use of video lottery terminals.

According to the report on gambling prepared by Harold Wynne from the Canadian Centre on Substance Abuse, 78% of individuals with gambling problems play video lottery terminals.

Our friend, Senator Jean Lapointe, opened a treatment centre that bears his name. According to a recently study led by the Maison Jean Lapointe on the treatment of pathological gambling, 83% of participants who began treatment said that video lottery terminals were their preferred game of chance.

Furthermore, the Institut national de santé publique du Québec estimates that 9% of people who use video lottery terminals develop a dependency. The research consulted unanimously reports that video lottery terminals represent the primary source of problems for 80% to 90% of gamblers who seek help.

According to a study published in the Canadian Journal of Psychiatry, most compulsive gamblers are addicted to video lotteries that they play every day or several times a week. They can stay close to home, therefore, and use the machines in local bars.

Dr. David Hodgins of the University of Calgary said in his presentation to the advisory board of the Institute of Neurosciences, Mental Health and Addiction that in Alberta 3% were compulsive gamblers, 2% were pathological gamblers, and 86% of the people who seek help in Alberta play video lotteries.

These statistics alone show what a problem there is with the proximity and availability of VLTs. I am not as knowledgeable or experienced as Senator Lapointe in this regard. However, all of us as members of Parliament go door to door to see people. We walk around and meet people. How often when I go to a restaurant where there is video poker do I see people and youths putting their money into these machines? How did they get their money? Are they going to empty their wallets? Are they going to cash their social assistance cheque and put it all into this? How many times have ladies, mothers of families, come to see me because their husbands play video poker? How many fathers of families do not know which way to turn because their children also play on VLTs?

This is a major problem and our role as members of Parliament, legislators, fellow citizens and responsible people who are supposed to improve the quality of life is to ask ourselves how we could legislate and do our work as members of Parliament to help those people. There is an adage that opportunity makes the thief. How can I ensure that these people do not have too much opportunity because VLTs are so near?

There are some people who love to talk numbers. They say that lotteries donate billions of dollars and generate revenue and that this is about the balance of convenience. I mention the balance of convenience because every time we face this kind of scourge, every time we have a pathetic situation like this one, there is a social price to pay.

Dr. Neil Tudiver of the University of Manitoba found that a compulsive gambler costs society $56,000 per year.

Take, for example, the numbers in Quebec. We did not make these numbers up. They were provided by the people at Loto-Québec, who are lottery experts. They say that Quebeckers account for 2% of compulsive gamblers. So, if we do a little math, we find that 140,000 Quebeckers are compulsive gamblers. Of those 140,000, an estimated 89% are addicted to video poker. That means that 124,000 Quebeckers have a video lottery problem.

If we multiply that number, 124,000, by $56,000 in costs to society, that means the state is spending $6.9 billion per year. Those 124,000 Quebeckers who are problem gamblers with a VLT habit cost us $6.9 billion.

Do you know how much revenue video lotteries generate for the Government of Quebec? Approximately $1 billion. If we do a little more simple math, we find that $1 billion in profits costs $6.9 billion in losses for the province because of compulsive gambling. I think that is a pretty convincing argument.

Yes, people will ask us why we are getting involved because this is under provincial jurisdiction and agreements about gambling were made between 1977 and 1985. Personally, I think we have a responsibility here.

This is about amending the Criminal Code, in a provincial jurisdiction. In 1985, I think, the Montreal casino did not exist, nor did video lotteries.

This is my call to everyone today: let us make sure that, following the second reading, this bill will be studied by the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights in order to make some clarifications, if necessary.

I see my colleague from Hochelaga nodding his head, because he understands. In fact such a situation also exists in the Centre-Sud neighbourhood. This is not an issue affecting the poor as opposed to the rich. But we know that more people are affected in some places than in others.

After second reading, in committee, we can then ask questions having to do with the federal-provincial aspect.

Still we should make sure that we can play our role fully as responsible citizens. We are legislators, we are the representatives of democracy, and this is the cradle of democracy. Together we adopted a motion bearing on the recognition of the Quebec nation. What about this nation, how is it supposed to operate?

Every time I have had the opportunity, as a legislator and responsible person—which I have had as the Minister of Sport, the Minister responsible for La Francophonie and the Minister of Immigration—I have tried to find ways of ensuring a better quality of life for people.

Here we are working on accessibility. We saw the consequences of prohibition in the 1920s. The prohibition of alcohol had a direct impact, namely, organized crime. Some people got rich that way. People got around the system and still got their drinks. And if, in a way, we regulate the way how things are done and the video lotteries are relegated to specific places, it will not be any better.

The bill is clever in this regard. Senator Lapointe did an excellent job. We will take three years. There will be consultations; the governments will consult one another, and we will find a decent way of ensuring that there can be a transition period— for example, in Quebec, involving Loto-Québec, the bars, the Government of Quebec, and the rest. We give ourselves three years so that we can achieve our ends.

One person is already too many. I could talk today about statistics, but one person is too many. We have heard about suicides, people who are depressed, people who were not players. But when they began to play these video lotteries, they were caught up in an untenable and horrific situation, a situation that is now worrying.

This is not only an adult problem, it is a youth problem as well.

There was a situation involving a 17 year old kid who committed suicide because of this problem. The kid started at 15 years old. He was going to that restaurant and playing many times. It became compulsive. He thought he would make some money because he played it so often, but it became a disease. One has to wonder if he stole to get the money. Did he have a Shylock or some individual involved in organized crime who passed him the money? If he did not win money, he would still have to reimburse that individual, at an interest rate of 30% or 40%. He was 17 years old. He did not see the light at the end of the tunnel. What was he going to do? He killed himself.

We have a duty in this place to do our job. We need to get the tools to the people who can make things happen.

I have been in politics for 25 years. Next June, I will have been a member of Parliament for 10 years. This is important legislation because it is concrete. We will make a better life for people if we pass the legislation.

I invite my dear friends to strongly support this bill on second reading. I understand that my colleagues from other parties are also going to give their point of view at this stage.

In my opinion, the first stage consists of accepting the basic principle of this bill so that we can then study it in committee.

Obviously we will be open to clarifications but we should continue Senator Lapointe's work and carry on building a better world.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am very much in support of the principles behind this bill. The one concern I have is that we may be infringing on the territoriality of the provinces by way of agreements that we have had with them starting back in maybe the late 1980s and the decision for the provinces to determine whether this type of gambling equipment would be usable in each of the provinces. I understand we have a series of agreements with the provinces and authority for that.

I am wondering if the member who sponsored the bill could express some opinion as to the legality of us passing this bill if it breaches those contracts, or if he has some other agenda as to how we might be able to deal with that particular problem.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the example that comes to mind is the agreement between the provinces, the territories and the Government of Canada in 1985 with the share of profits based on the lottery. That was before the time of casinos and video poker at that level. We might have something there.

The Senate went through the three readings and had its share of discussion on it, which is why it should be sent to the justice committee where it can have that kind of discussion.

There is a balance between the legality and the legitimacy of it. We know we will need to amend the Criminal Code. We can frame the issue by addressing the fact that it is under the Criminal Code, which is federal jurisdiction. On the other hand, the fact is that there is a period of transition of three years where we need to consult with the provinces.

My understanding is that those who do not have the problem in some provinces or territories are fully in agreement. The other provinces do have some doubts and questions because of the constitutionality. However, I would say that it is like the environment. It is a shared issue that we must address among ourselves.

By having that kind of profound, in-depth debate within the justice committee we should have all the legal framework attached to it. Frankly, with the role we play as legislators and since it is under the Criminal Code, I am not sure it would jeopardize the actual agreement that already exists but we will need to discuss those kinds of things, which is why we are hoping to make those kinds of clarifications during the debate. Since we agree in principle, I truly believe that it is a must to have that kind of debate.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the issue of the addictive properties seem to be well-documented in numerous jurisdictions. When we talk about the use in certain restricted areas, why do we think we could actually tolerate even that level of the addictive properties of VLTs?

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is because at the end of the day it is all about doability. We may be in politics but we must be pragmatic. I feel that if we prohibit it, organized crime will take over. If we were to confine it to specific territories, it would still be available but under government institutions and regulated. We would have a better chance of addressing the issue.

I said at the beginning that one of the main problems with this issue is that availability. If a kid or other people like a machine they are playing they can become addicted to it. Therefore, if we confine these machines to a casino, people will have to go there. The experts have been pretty clear in saying that is what helped us to confine the situation.

Again, this is a doable, practical and pragmatic approach that will help us to provide better tools for the experts and the people in the field to confine that problem, which is truly a major problem. If we prohibit it, we will have the same thing happen as what happened with the prohibition of alcohol in the 1920s.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I will state at the outset that the government will not be supporting Bill S-211 but we want it to be completely understood that we do support and I support the need to reduce the human misery that results from gambling addiction.

However, we do disagree with the bill's approach of stripping the provinces and territories and their residents of their current ability to make local decisions locally.

We all want to end gambling addictions and its attendant economic misery, family hardship, employee theft and suicide. However, there is a very basic choice that Parliament must make, in light of Bill S-211, on the subject and, as we all know, when it comes to federal, provincial and territorial relations it is the delicate subject of decision-making relating to gambling and any other activity.

Will the federal government play big brother and take away the decision-making that the provinces and territories now have under the Criminal Code with respect to provincial government lottery schemes, or will local decision-making be left to the provinces and territories? It is as simple and yet as complex as that.

The general scheme in the gambling provisions of the Criminal Code is to prohibit all forms of gambling except those that are specifically permitted by the code. In 1969, Parliament expanded the legalized gambling provisions of the Criminal Code. A parliamentary joint committee had examined this topic, along with others, in the mid-1950s and recommended some expansion of legalized gambling.

By the time that Parliament was considering gambling amendments to the Criminal Code in the 1960s, some states in the U.S. had already amended their state constitutions, in some cases, in order to legalize a state lottery that could benefit the state economically. When Parliament amended the Criminal Code in 1969 to expand the forms of legalized gambling alongside the recommendations from joint committee reports of the 1950s, Canadian legislators of the day added permission for the provincial and federal governments to conduct a lottery scheme and permission for provincial government to license certain lottery schemes.

Later, in a 1976 federal-provincial-territorial agreement, Canada agreed not to use its permission to conduct a federal lottery scheme and the provinces agreed to make an annual payment to Canada that now amounts, in current dollars, to some $60 million.

In 1983, Parliament enacted permission for the federal government to conduct pool betting operations and provinces went to court arguing that these looked very much like lottery schemes that the federal government in 1976 had agreed not to pursue. The federal government, for its part, commenced litigation against certain provinces for operating schemes that it saw as illegal pool betting operations.

The litigation was resolved in 1985 with a new federal-provincial-territorial agreement that required the federal government to use its best efforts to place a bill before Parliament to remove from the Criminal Code the permission for the federal government to operate a lottery scheme. The provinces and territories agreed to pay to Canada $100 million to be used for the 1988 Calgary Olympics.

In 1985, a bill was tabled and passed that removed the permission in the Criminal Code for the federal government to operate a lottery scheme. It also clarified that a province or territory could itself operate a lottery scheme on or through a slot machine and a video lottery terminal, or VLT, a form of a slot machine, but a province or territory could no license to others to operate a lottery scheme on or through a slot machine.

The speed of play, games and internal computerization is essentially the same for what we traditionally think of as slot machines, which pay out by coin, and what we think of as VLTs, which pay out by a printout. Also, both traditional slot machines and VLTs meet the definition of a slot machine in subsection 198(3) of the Criminal Code:

...“slot machine” means any automatic machine or slot machine

(a) that is used or intended to be used for any purpose other than vending merchandise or services, or

(b) that is used or intended to be used for the purpose of vending merchandise or services if

(i) the result of one of any number of operations of the machine is a matter of chance or uncertainty to the operator,

(ii) as a result of a given number of successive operations by the operator the machine produces different results, or

(iii) on any operation of the machine it discharges or emits a slug or token, but does not include an automatic machine or slot machine that dispenses as prizes only one or more free games on that machine.

The premise of Bill S-211 is that Parliament should attack the problem of compulsive gambling by disqualifying, through an amendment to the Criminal Code, certain venues as sites for video lottery terminals that are operated by the provincial government.

Whether this would be a good idea or a bad idea is a matter for debate certainly, but what the government is saying is that we should maintain the existing Criminal Code approach that permits a provincial or territorial government to make that decision about where VLTs will be placed, if the province or territory chooses to operate any at all.

Bill S-211 would eliminate the possibility for provinces to place VLTs in locations other than racetracks or casinos. It is not just a matter of saying that Canada will pay any losses by provinces in moving provincial government VLTs from bars to racetracks and casinos. Clearly, this would affect federal-provincial-territorial relations even with provinces and territories that, to date, have chosen not to place VLTs in bars. None of the three territories place VLT terminals in bars and Ontario and British Columbia do not place VLT terminals in bars. Quebec, the Prairie provinces and the Atlantic provinces do place VLTs in bars which, of course, are age controlled premises that by law are not permitted to cater to minors.

Some Prairie provinces have held municipal referenda to remove VLTs from bars. They have respected those votes and removed VLTs from such establishments in those municipalities. A few years ago in New Brunswick there was a provincial referendum on whether to remove video lottery terminals from bars and the decision was to keep them. In fact, some Prairie and Atlantic provinces and Quebec have taken decisions to reduce or cap the number of VLTs that will be placed at bars in the province.

The choice that we have with this bill is to keep the jurisdiction for the video lottery schemes where it is currently with the provinces and territories or to take that back into the federal realm. The government's position is that we will leave that to the provinces and territories, which will allow for local decision making. Ultimately, residents of a province or territory are free to make their provincial or territorial government accountable for its decisions at the polls. Also, there is ample room for public debate on VLTs in the assemblies and legislatures of the provinces and territories.

As I just said, those debates and those referenda in some provinces and in individual municipalities are taking place, they have taken place and they will take place. It is at that level that individuals can have input into their own communities. There is no need for the federal government to change the existing provisions.

While advocates of Bill S-211 would prefer to do one stop shopping here in Parliament rather than to fight the battle in each province that places VLTs in bars, I am convinced that provincial and territorial governments and their residents should be left to determine what is appropriate in their local circumstances.

Therefore, I urge members of this House to vote against Bill S-211 and to leave provinces and territories the ability to make local decisions with respect to where they will place their provincial or territorial VLTs. We may disagree with the decision they take but that is for the province, the territory and, in some cases, the municipalities and their residents to determine.

This is an area that has been handed over to the provinces and we encourage residents to give input to their local province, territory, municipalities when these issues arise. It is the government's position to leave that local decision-making at the local level.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate Senator Lapointe for the battle he has fought, an extremely judicious battle that shows he is a generous man who cares for people. In our work, it is important not to always put institutions first. Sometimes people have to be a priority.

Senator Lapointe is known in Quebec for his brilliant career as an actor. I have watched his performance in the Duplessis series many times—not that I have any admiration for Duplessis, but this show is indeed part of our television anthology.

I also want to commend the hon. member for Bourassa for sponsoring the bill here in this House. The Bloc Québécois very much hopes that the bill will reach second reading, that it will be referred to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, and that we can manage to reconcile two objectives.

The first objective is to give some tools to those who have a gambling addiction. The location of video lottery terminals, VLTs, is part of the problem.

Our second objective involves respecting jurisdictions. No one can deny that an agreement was reached in 1979 and renewed in 1985, under which the provinces pay $50 million. The federal government said it would withdraw from this jurisdiction. The provinces can therefore take care of it and it is clear that the Bloc Québécois will definitely be quite anxious about matters of respecting jurisdictions. We are trying to find a way to reconcile these two objectives and the appearance of witnesses in committee can certainly allow us to achieve these objectives.

Gambling addiction destroys families, creates major problems, makes individuals miserable, breaks up relationships and causes real harm in communities. The Bloc Québécois wants to see Senator Lapointe's bill as a way of helping people resolve their addiction problems. Of course, more needs to be done and a certain number of issues will have to be taken into consideration during the debate.

First of all, Loto-Québec established the Société des loteries vidéo du Québec in 1993. Quebec then was responsible for making a certain number of terminals available in the province. At present, there are just under 14,000 terminals in Quebec bars, pubs and restaurants. There is an entire licensing and permit system for these terminals.

It is interesting to note that our citizens can go to various licensed establishments to play these 13,870 terminals, which require a permit and are authorized. Of these, only 430 are located at racetracks. Senator Lapointe is right to state that in the majority of cases and for the most part, certainly in the case of video lottery terminals, they are available in places other than racet-courses, casinos and betting theatres.

We must also ask the question because what is of concern to us is that there also must be state controls. We do not wish to return to a system like the one that existed before government licensing of video lotteries. At that time there was the problem of underworld control. I have been provided with statistics on this matter. Prior to 1993, the state had lost control of between 30,000 and 40,000 terminals. Therefore, not only had the government lost control of the resources generated by this underground industry, an industry controlled by organized crime, but it was also prevented from intervening on other fronts. I remember that several years ago Loto-Québec developed a program that would help compulsive gamblers. I could provide some examples in this regard.

Moreover, Loto-Québec, through its subsidiary, the Société des loteries vidéo du Québec, has begun to reduce the number of video lottery terminals. The plan calls for a 31% reduction, over four years, in the number of VLTs in Quebec.

Loto-Québec and the Government of Quebec are already taking a number of measures. It is interesting to note that in Quebec's National Assembly, the minister with responsibility for the video lottery system and the support program for compulsive gamblers is not the Minister of Justice, Mr. Marcoux, but the Minister for Youth Protection and Rehabilitation, a member from Quebec City, Margaret Delisle. She is responsible for it. There is a whole program for compulsive gamblers.

Obviously, this should not prevent us from taking action of our own, in line with Senator Lapointe's proposal. But our jurisdictional concerns must be addressed, and we need guarantees that provincial jurisdictions will be respected, because we would not want to set any precedents.

We sympathize with what the senators have done. Of course, we think the Senate should be elected. I do not know whether, in a sovereign Quebec, there will be an upper chamber. That will be debated in due course. But one thing is certain. If, tomorrow morning, for example—

[An hon. member]

Oh, oh!

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

I have attracted the attention of the member for Bourassa. I do not know whether he wants to reply.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I thought it was another parody of Mr. Boisclair.

[Real Ménard]

Mr. Boisclair is a great leader. The member for Bourassa and I have witnessed victories and defeats in leadership contests. That is a fact.

On a more serious note, what I wanted to say is that if, tomorrow morning, a senator were to stand up in the other place and propose changes in education, for example, in the curriculum of school boards and schools, that might be a good idea. If a senator were to stand up in the Senate and say that Canadian history should be a mandatory subject, we would no doubt approve. But I am not convinced that we would agree that that initiative should come from the federal government.

So we support Senator Lapointe's bill. We hope that the bill will pass second reading. We will vote for it at second reading and we will be looking for an amendment to be introduced in due course, either in committee or during third reading—we will see—to ensure complete respect for Quebec's jurisdiction.

That said, I want to explain that the National Assembly has already passed a certain number of measures relating to gambling addiction. For example, VLTs are located in places off-limits to those under 18. Posters proclaiming that gambling should just be a game are put up in every establishment that has VLTs. Brochures to raise awareness are placed near the machines and messages promoting moderation appear on or near them. There are a number of mechanisms in place to make people aware that excessive gambling is not healthy for the people who do it and is certainly not healthy for families that have to deal with the problem.

This is an important financial issue because, as the member for Bourassa said, gambling brings in $1.3 billion for the government, though not necessarily all of that is profit, which is more like $809 million.

As you can see, there are problems, considerations and financial issues we need to keep in mind. But we cannot make decisions based on those factors alone. The most important consideration is the health of individuals and targeting the harmful nature of problem gambling.

In closing, I would like to congratulate Senator Lapointe once again. I hope that we will be able to hear witnesses in the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. We will see where this issue places in the committee's list of priorities, which is long.

Nevertheless, the Bloc Québécois is fully prepared to cooperate to ensure a diligent study of this bill, which deserves the support of all parliamentarians.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak to Bill S-211, which has come to us from the Senate under the authorship of Senator Lapointe and sponsored here by the member for Bourassa.

This bill is attempting, and I think to some degree successfully so, although I have some reservations, to look at a specific problem in the gaming industry. In particular, although it addresses the use of video lottery terminals and slot machines, the major problem we have is with the video lottery terminals, the VLTs. I have been involved in this issue for quite some time. Windsor, my home riding, had the first casino in Ontario. In fact I sat on the first provincial board in the province back in the early and mid 1990s.

During that period of time it became an issue as to whether the VLTs would be allowed into Ontario. Before I go on with that, I want to take a bit of an issue because I am not sure the major point has been addressed. What happened through the 1980s and into the early 1990s in Canada was that the federal government, by way of legislation in the House and agreements with the provinces, in effect permitted the provinces to move into the gaming industry.

Under the Criminal Code all the gaming in the country in effect is prohibited and is only allowed when there is legislation exempting the provinces or other operators from entering into the field. What has happened historically is the federal government has allowed that by way of exemptions from the Criminal Code, a law that goes back 400 or 500 years in common law and legislation, but the provinces do require those exemptions. Those exemptions have been granted.

Coming back to Ontario, as we received those exemptions, the Ontario government of whatever shade on various occasions had to make a determination as to what type of gaming would be allowed in the province. We have seen a similar pattern in a number of other provinces, I think all of the other provinces now.

What Ontario has done, and it will have no problem with the scheme that is established under this proposed legislation, is exactly what the legislation contemplates which is that it would limit the use of this gaming equipment to casinos. In Ontario it is both casinos that are run directly by the province and in some cases managed privately but owned and operated directly by the province, and then what we call charity casinos that are operated by charities in various locations around the province. In addition Ontario has allowed gaming equipment in the form of slot machines into a number of the race tracks.

It fits exactly into the pattern that is proposed in this legislation, with the exception that when we did the analysis under the NDP government in the early 1990s, we determined that the VLTs were so addictive, from experiences that we had studied in a number of other jurisdictions, that we never allowed them into Ontario. I believe that continues to the present time. They are not allowed in the casinos, they are not allowed at the race tracks and they certainly were never allowed in the bars, restaurants and other private establishments. That has always been a prohibition in Ontario.

That is not the pattern elsewhere in the country. We know we have a particular problem in at least two of the maritime provinces and I believe one of the prairie provinces, where in fact the use of the VLTs has been permitted by the provincial governments in private enterprises, some in a number of those jurisdictions in corner stores, variety stores, bars and restaurants. We never allowed them in Ontario because of their addictive nature. They are much more addictive than the traditional slot machine, in ratios of 10:1 to 20:1 more addictive.

We have heard all sorts of horror stories. The Senate heard a number of horror stories about people with modest incomes becoming addicted and spending a hundred dollars to several hundreds of dollars a day until they ran out of money. They exhausted all their savings and assets and ultimately bankrupted themselves and other family members. That has been a real pattern with VLTs. This is primarily what Senator Lapointe is trying to address in this bill. It is a laudable experience.

By giving provinces this authority, we have allowed them to become dependent on the revenues that they generate from these machines. An article in October's Walrus magazine detailed how much revenue was derived by private enterprises and provincial governments. They are used to receiving this revenue. In a serious proportion of cases, it is ill-gotten revenue because of the fact that it comes from people who are addicted to these machines, and it should be stopped.

Because this is such an important issue, I will be supporting the bill going to the justice committee, although the last thing the justice committee needs is another bill thanks to the intemperate approach by the Conservative government of sending all kinds of crime bills in patches to it. As we heard from the member for the Bloc, we will look at making amendments to ensure that provincial jurisdiction is protected and that the provinces are on side.

If we take away the right of provinces to have video lottery terminals and slot machines in private enterprises, then at the very least we need to give them time to adjust to that loss of revenue because in some cases it is quite significant. They will need a timeline to move away from their dependency on this revenue. This will be one of the amendments.

Another concern of mine is we may get into a legal constitutional conflict between the federal government and the provinces based on the legislation we passed previously, allowing them to get into this industry. This will have to be addressed. I assume the Senate has addressed this to some degree, but I will be looking for a review on this to see if we are not crossing a constitutional boundary and going in a direction we should not be going.

I can safely say that this is a crisis, especially with regard to VLTs. It should be addressed. It may ultimately be more appropriate that it be addressed at the provincial level, so it may not be possible to support the legislation at third reading, but we have a responsibility to investigate this.

I will be supporting it. It will be a free vote in my party. Hopefully, with the support of the House, the bill will go to justice committee where we can conduct an investigation to determine whether amendments can be made that will bring it into line with the needs of the provinces.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak in the debate on a bill that promotes moral principles based on human dignity. I am talking about Bill S-211, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (lottery schemes). I want to thank Senator Lapointe, who is the sponsor of this bill. His courage, his determination and his perseverance have enabled him to overcome the many obstacles in his path.

This bill amends a provision in the Criminal Code on lotteries. This amendment to the Criminal Code would limit the location of video lottery terminals to race-courses, casinos and betting theatres.

The objective is to remove VLTs from bars and restaurants. Let us be clear: the goal is not to ban VLTs, but to limit their location to casinos, race-courses and betting theatres.

According to a study by the program The Fifth Estate, in 2004 there were 38,652 video lottery terminals in 8,309 different locations in Canada. When the bill is passed and comes into effect over a period of three years, there will be no more than 206 locations in Canada where a person could gamble at a VLT.

Some of my hon. colleagues will raise the spectre of sharing jurisdictions between the federal and provincial governments. This debate is on a highly serious social issue that affects the entire Canadian population where VLTs are found. It is in Quebec where we find the greatest number of these machines. Although the government has cut the number of these machines, there are still too many of them and we would be burying our heads in the sand if we avoided talking about it because this issue might upset the provinces.

Bill S-211 is not the first bill to amend the Criminal Code on the matter of lotteries. A similar bill was introduced in 2004: Bill S-6. On April 21, 2004, during the proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs for consideration of Bill S-6, a brief presentation had been prepared on the issue to provide some background on the federal government's responsibility. It said:

The lottery scheme provisions in section 207 express the current federal government policy. Provincial and territorial governments are free to make local decisions regarding the kinds of lottery or gaming schemes that they may conduct or license within the limits set by the Criminal Code.

Senator Joyal even added:

The federal government could amend the Criminal Code and decide there will be no more gambling in Canada, period. We would have the capacity as a Parliament to do that.

At present, the Criminal Code authorizes the provinces to issue licences to operate video lottery terminals. There is no doubt that passing Bill S-211 could have a considerable impact on the provinces. In fact, provincial authorities reap astronomical profits from their video lotteries, to the extent that Canadians would be right to wonder if the provinces themselves have not become dependent on this revenue.

Where does this revenue for the provinces come from? A large majority of it comes from the money that people insert and lose in these machines. This is money that is therefore not circulating in our local economies, in our regional businesses. Aside from the royalties paid to the lessors of the machines, these considerable sums go directly into the coffers of the provincial governments, but at what price?

How many families have been direct or indirect victims of video lottery terminals? How do these families absorb the terrible losses caused by this type of gambling? How many children are underfed, poorly clothed and do not have proper housing because of such losses from the family income?

After Bill S-211 was tabled, the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs presented a report with an annex including a number of observations. I would like to draw the attention of the House to the following observation.

Revenues to provinces and private enterprise, of course, represent losses to individuals. For some people, their losses do no harm. For others, however, there can be the serious social costs mentioned above, costs that are only minimally addressed by provincial programs for problem gamblers.

Thus, it may be said that provincial revenues from VLTs are a double edged-sword: the revenues are welcome, but the social costs for individual problem gamblers and their families may reverberate for years to come. Indeed, your Committee received testimony about studies estimating that the social cost of video lotteries is three to five times higher than the revenue they bring in.

Several witnesses appeared before this committee. According to the testimony, video lottery terminals, and I quote:

—are often placed in bars in lower-income neighbourhoods. Their accessibility thus encourages people who might not otherwise be exposed to gambling to start, and because of their location, individuals with meagre resources often suffer the most. Studies also tend to show that problem gamblers prefer electronic forms of gambling. For all of these reasons, a number of experts in gambling behaviour single out VLTs as posing particular problems for individuals and communities.

This form of gambling is highly addictive and youth are often the most vulnerable.

It is interesting to note the position of those who work in the hotel and restaurant industry, as indicated in this same Senate report:

The Association of Restaurant and Hotel Workers of Quebec supported the Bill...the Association reported that in a recent representative survey in the Montreal area of workers in bars where there were VLTs, 90% of the workers supported removal of the machines from bars. Another survey found that 70% had the same view. The Association also noted that the proximity to VLTs had a negative impact on some of the staff’s own gambling, and also led to significant stress when employees had to deal with distraught players.

Furthermore, a survey by Canada West Foundation reported that:

—of the 2,200 Canadians consulted, 70% agreed with the statement that video lottery terminals should be limited to casinos and racetracks, with one half of the respondents in strong agreement.

This bill has come to us from the Senate under the authorship of Senator Lapointe, a senator who has won the respect and admiration of Quebeckers and Canadians. This bill strikes at the heart of a major social problem: video lottery terminals. This bill would not prohibit VLTs; rather, it would restrict them to specific locations. Gambling is still legal, but it needs to be better controlled. We are particularly concerned about the accessibility of slot machines, which are often located in poor neighbourhoods.

Earlier, I was talking about young children and families who suffer because of gamblers' bad habits. For most of the people who engage in this type of gambling, it is very like a drug. Once they start playing VLTs or slot machines, it is just like a drug. People go back to it again and again and develop an addiction. Sadly, I have seen people lose entire paycheques to these machines.

In closing, I would like to ask all of my colleagues in this House to vote for Bill S-211 and to send this important issue to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights to clarify its scope so we can achieve the expected result.

[The Acting Speaker, Andrew Scheer]

The time provided for the consideration of private members' business has now expired and the order is dropped to the bottom of the order of precedence on the order paper.

The House resumed from December 6, 2006 consideration of the motion that Bill S-211, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (lottery schemes), be read the second time and referred to a committee.