Bill C-56 (Historical)

Fairness for the Self-Employed Act

An Act to amend the Employment Insurance Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts

This enactment amends the Employment Insurance Act and other Acts by establishing a scheme to provide for the payment of special benefits to self-employed persons who are not currently entitled to receive them.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

There's only a problem if we're going back to the 24th or the 26th. I'd like to remind you that we did say that on those days we would be discussing Bill C-56. At this point, do we wish to take time away from Bill C-56 in order to come back to this motion? I do ask that question.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

The trip is scheduled for the first week in December, according to the chronology that reads as follows: study of Bill C-56, November 19, 24 and 26. Report Bill C-56 to the House, no later than November 27. Travel to the north and to the west, the first week in December; when we are back, study and finish the study of Bill C-304, December 8 and 10, 2009. There is the timeline. It is almost exactly the same as the one that was read at the very beginning. So I call the question once more.

(Motion agreed to.)

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

For me anyway, I tabled the motion based on some very practical realities that are in front of us. First of all, the government wants to get Bill C-56 through committee and back into the House before any travel is made. It's as simple as that. That is what Mr. Komarnicki told me. And he can make that happen. All he has to do is talk to his whip or his House leader and we don't travel.

We know the process here. Committee can approve and the Liaison Committee can approve, but if any one of the whips decides unilaterally that travel is not going to happen, it will not happen. That happened last June when the plug was pulled on a planned trip to Ireland because the government whip decided that it wasn't going to allow that travel. That can happen anytime, and it's within the power of the government or any of us. The reality is that we're not travelling until we get Bill C-56.

The other question, then, is how committed are we and how strongly do we feel about the travel for poverty? I heard many say it's important to get the travel done so that we finish that piece of the work, so that the analysts can do their work over Christmas and be ready with their report in the early new year. I suggest that's a good plan, that it is what we need to do. We've been at this now for over two years, and it's time to bring it to some conclusion.

So when do we travel? Do we travel the first week in December or do we travel the second week in December? The first week, in my view, makes the most sense. The last week is always a pretty hairy week, for those who have been around for a while. There are things happening, there are votes, there's commotion, there's anticipation of the government falling and all that kind of stuff, and the whips tend to want us here. So I think the only week we have left in terms of travel is that first week in December.

That's why I'm making the suggestion that I have. I'm willing to make the commitment. I understand what Mr. Savage and Mr. Lessard are saying in terms of our hands being tied at this committee. I also understand what Mr. Komarnicki is saying about needing to get this done as quickly as we can, because at the end of the day it's not us who are going to be affected. We will still have our jobs, hopefully for a while longer, and we won't have to worry about EI for a little bit. But there are lots of people out there in this very difficult economy who are waiting for this to happen and be available to them. I think we owe it to them to, first of all, do a fulsome job to make sure this piece of work is the best possible coming out of here at this time. We've all seen where we've rushed bills and made mistakes and had to come back later and fix them. We don't want to be in that position again.

I'm pretty confident that if we do our work and do it in the spirit we've been working in at this committee over the last couple of years, we can actually get that done. That way, we meet all of the very significant and important requirements that have been laid out by all of us here today.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

It's not something we would be prepared to entertain, because Bill C-56 is important. It's important that we have it in the House and hopefully through both houses before we break for the year, because it has some significant timelines, including January 1, when we're not here. It's very important that we proceed expeditiously for the benefit of those who are self-employed.

Even dealing with it by way of an extra week is impinging on time and expeditiousness. Having said that, we would not want to delay it another week because of the danger posed to the bill itself, making it through both houses.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

Before I ask Mr. Komarnicki the question, I would just like to remind you of something.

I'd like to remind everyone that what is in the motion here is the possibility of eight hours of discussion and witnesses: November 19, November 24, November 26, and another day if needed. That's eight hours. Or we could possibly even prolong it if that's what the members decide to do when we come to that.

So we're talking about eight hours additional on Bill C-56. However, Mr. Komarnicki, Mr. Lessard has made a suggestion. First of all, I have a motion here. I have to deal with that motion, but I'd like to remind Mr. Komarnicki that Mr. Lessard has made a suggestion that we keep the calendar as is in terms of traveling time and that we deal with Bill C-56 when we come back.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I have the same concerns as Mr. Savage.

On the poverty question, when we planned our trip, of course we wanted to have finished our work first. But we also wanted to make sure that the drafters are able to enjoy the holiday season, and to do their work in January, when we will not be here. In my opinion, that agenda is risky because it does not ensure that the trip will happen before the holidays. It also wastes the drafters' time, time that they could use doing the work we expect of them. Let us not forget the consensus we have that this work is of the highest importance.

I have to say that the parameters of Bill C-56and Bill C-304 include elements, factors that must come into play and that must normally relieve poverty a little, if it is done well. I am not sure that we will succeed in doing good work on Bill C-56 if we rush things. That is my second argument.

That is also where I share Mr. Savage's position. We also want to hear witnesses. The people in the trenches, the self-employed, have their representatives and we must hear from them. We must also hear from experts. At very least, we must hear from the chief actuary who administers the employment insurance fund.

In the opposition, we are always concerned about costs. We do it openly, but we must get answers. The principle of getting the bill passed is not the problem. It is new and interesting; it is the first time that self-employed workers have acquired rights under the employment insurance plan. We recognize how interesting that is. So, since it is worth doing, let us make sure that we do it well. It seems that there may be people whom it is intended to include, but who are actually excluded. We should check that as well.

I still have one concern, Madam Chair. I agree with postponing our study on Bill C-304 until after our trip to the west. We certainly agree with that. But, as for the agenda, I wonder whether we should not stay with the trip next week and carefully consider Bill C-56 when we get back. That would not delay things very much, as long as we can start to study this bill on Thursday.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

I should just add that we talked about having Bill C-56 reported to the House.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

The NDP members will be in caucus that week as well. January is a difficult month to find time. People are doing caucus work and constituency work, and some of us are spending time with family.

I would like to see us do what Mr. Komarnicki has suggested, and I want to hear a bit more, maybe, from Mike on this. But I want to maybe put a motion on the table so that we can deal with it, that we defer the study of Bill C-304 until we come back from our western travel, that we deal with Bill C-56 Thursday of this week and next week—

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I've sat quietly listening. I understand the importance of Bill C-56. There's no question about the need to do a good job on that bill, because many of us--the Standing Committee on the Status of Women when I was on it, and of course our own Liberal women's caucus--have been supportive of extending EI to the self-employed for the purposes for which it does.... I think we need the time to give it the right attention, as Mr. Savage said.

But having said that, I really would encourage the committee not to postpone the travel until the next year. I think we need to finish it by early December and then allow for the researchers to begin to write something. Otherwise what we're saying is that poverty is really always on the back burner, it's really not an issue, and we really aren't interested. We can just put it aside every time something else comes up. It's not that the other things aren't important, but this is the overarching huge something else that would influence or impact on the changes to EI, or impact on housing. It's really the kind of piece of work that impacts on all of this other stuff that we're now doing in pieces.

I would encourage us to not put it off and to finish it the first week of December and be able to give direction to the researchers to actually then draft a report.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

The committee's responsibility, obviously, is to get Bill C-56 legislation addressed as soon as possible. Considering Mr. Savage's comments and in light of the Christmas scheduling and different activities on the Hill, is it possible we could defer the travel to January, when we return?

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Bill C-56.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

Are you talking about Bill C-56 or Bill C-304 when you say you'll do everything you can?

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

As I say, I'm not going to object to that general schedule. This is the committee that has been asked to look at Bill C-56, and all parties in the House have indicated general support for the bill. It's a significantly technical piece of legislation that affects a number of departments. I have a motion before this committee that we have a joint meeting with the Standing Committee on the Status of Women who've done a lot of work in this regard. I'm prepared to accelerate the meeting schedule to get as many meetings in as we can by the end of next week. However, we cannot as a committee honestly prejudge the result of those hearings.

I'll do everything I can to push us along. We are generally in support of the employment insurance extension of maternal, parental, and sickness benefits. We've talked about that for many years. I spent part of my summer talking about it with the minister. We have to accept the fact that there may be some reasons that we would have to either have more hearings or more work in terms of amendments, but I'm prepared to accept the fact that we'll do everything we can to get it through this committee by the end of next week.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

Thank you, Mr. Savage.

Let me recapitulate Mr. Komarnicki's suggestion. It is a suggestion.

If I understood correctly—and correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Komarnicki—you suggested that this Thursday, November 19, followed by November 24 and 26, which is next Tuesday and next Thursday, we continue and finish Bill C-56 and report it back to the House, which would allow us to go on the trip north in the first week of December, being November 30, December 1, and so on. We would come back and we would then work on Bill C-304 and finish that before December 11, the last day of the session this year.

Is that what you're suggesting, Mr. Komarnicki?

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm largely in concurrence with what people are saying around the table in terms of this motion and the deferment of it to a more suitable time. I want to remind the committee that we also have a motion to deal with that is very important and very time-sensitive regarding the twentieth anniversary of the unanimous declaration of Parliament, which I think we have to get to today and come to some resolution on. In light of the report that came out today about food banks and the increased necessity of food banks, poverty is a huge issue in this country, particularly among children. As parliamentarians, we all have to address this, and I want to make sure we get to that today.

I'm prepared to deal, as Mr. Komarnicki was suggesting, with Bill C-56 expeditiously. I wasn't keen on the whole way it has been handled. Mr. Komarnicki does his job well as a parliamentary secretary and normally keeps us very much in the loop, but I hadn't heard anything in terms of moving the travel. It would seem to me that it would make a lot more sense to keep that travel, which I assume is largely booked, and use next week to get witnesses lined up for the following week. Then we could be assured that we would pass Bill C-56 through the committee on, say, December 3 or 4.

I'm prepared to have this discussion, but I do want to remind committee members that we have a very important motion on the floor and many people in Canada are interested in the outcome of that.

Thank you.