Bill S-4 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Criminal Code (identity theft and related misconduct)

This enactment amends the Criminal Code to create offences of identity theft, trafficking in identity information and unlawful possession or trafficking in certain government-issued identity documents, to clarify and expand certain offences related to identity theft and identity fraud, to exempt certain persons from liability for certain forgery offences, and to allow for an order that the offender make restitution to a victim of identity theft or identity fraud for the expenses associated with rehabilitating their identity.

Criminal Code

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I think that my colleague understands and has defined the issue very well. That is the problem. We often hear the old saying: Do as I say and not as I do. The government gives us a good example of that since it tells us not to do something that it does itself.

I thank my colleague because it is true that in Ontario and elsewhere in Canada, more social insurance numbers were issued than there are people. That is a scourge we are not through with. The fact is that not only does the government give out more SINs than there are people, but we know that there are also forgers and that SINs are like gold and sell very well.

How could the government, which knows that SINs are like gold, issue a surplus of 2.9 million of them?

I cannot imagine that there is nobody in the department and in the government who can assume the responsibility to check what is done and tell us how they will eliminate this problem.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate my colleague for his very interesting speech. He gave us several examples of cases where identity theft can take place. We see that the bill does not say anything about preventive measures. Could the member enumerate some such measures that could be included in the bill?

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will answer my colleague, who is also vice-chair of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology. One of these days, ways of dealing with this problem should end up before that committee, of which I am also a member.

Yes, it is important. I touched on it earlier. When the government wants to promote all the measures it wants to implement, it will stop at nothing. We saw the government spend $100,000 recently just for one announcement. Therefore, if it has that kind of money for self-promotion, it should have enough money to inform the public on how it can protect itself. That is the first thing.

The second thing is that businesses should also be informed. Not only do they need information, but they also need training. How to dispose of personal documents from people who buy things from them or have other dealings with them? I could give all kinds of examples, such as buying clothes. People can buy things on the Internet. If we could provide training and information and raise awareness, I think that we would be in a much better position to eliminate this problem and we could do other things.

[Josée Beaudin, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his speech. I have been listening to all my colleagues for the past two hours and I have a question for my Bloc Québécois colleague. The purpose of the bill, which in fact is necessary, is to address identity theft. After having heard all that has been said, I have the following question for my colleague, who broached the subject briefly. If this bill is passed, will identity theft be a thing of the past?

Of course, criminals can be punished, but as far as prevention goes, what can we do to stop identity theft?

We spoke earlier about collaborating with the provinces. I think collaboration between provincial and federal governments is essential to address this problem. It would have been better if the government had started to collaborate before proposing the new measures in the bill; in other words, establish a coherent strategy before changing the Criminal Code, then implement this strategy at the provincial level and make sure the provinces have the necessary tools and resources.

Can my colleague expand upon the importance of collaborating with the provinces, particularly with Quebec, to make sure that the measures contained in this amended bill can be implemented and that the provinces have enough resources to implement them?

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague. In my view, she did a good job of defining the problem we have been discussing for two hours.

For the past two hours, we have been dealing with limitations in the Criminal Code. But, the problem is not only those limitations as such. It is also that, due to the limitations, gathering the evidence needed to recover the money under the Criminal Code is much more problematic than if the money were recovered through the provinces. It would be much easier for people to recover the money they lost if they did it through the provinces.

Therefore, the problem is perfectly defined. But, we know very well that not encroaching on provincial jurisdictions is not the strong point of the government. If the government could solve all problems across Canada without involving the provinces and if it could manage all provinces while turning its back on them, it would be, in my view, as successful as it hopes to be. But, this is not the case, and we will not let the government act that way.

That is why the Bloc Québécois is a sovereigntist party defending the interests of Quebec.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise to make my contribution to this debate, which is certainly one of the most important debates we have had this year.

My colleagues will agree with me that the crime of identity theft is one of the most heinous crimes that can happen to us and that we can be the victim of. From a number of examples our colleagues have given this morning, we have seen what can happen to people whose identities are stolen.

We agree with this bill, with its intent and with what it proposes. Some people have told us that we should still be careful because the bill as a whole is not perfect. There are in fact clauses in the bill to which we must pay close attention because if we do not pay attention we risk finding ourselves with legislation that does not really meet the needs that have been expressed and that led to it being introduced.

This bill is a good one, however, and it is a necessary one, because we all know very well that since the late 1990s we have been buffeted by all the new electronic data and all the kinds of identification and ways of identifying ourselves we can have. It is very easy to get all sorts of information on the Internet. It may be tempting for fraud artists to use that information against us without our being aware of it.

We are increasingly engaging in electronic transactions. I do it myself. I make sure I see the padlock when I am conducting electronic transactions. But I know that some fraudulent businesses use electronic commerce and various methods to get hold of the data we send, be it our credit card data or information from our personal papers. That data will then be misused.

What is most disturbing, as has been said several times this morning, is the fact that seniors are probably the victims most often targeted by fraud artists for this type of crime. We suspect that this is because seniors are much more vulnerable and much more isolated. Some of them, unfortunately, are also illiterate and do not understand all the ins and outs of what might happen if someone were, unluckily for them, to get hold of their identification.

I had my PIN stolen once myself. I was aware of it, however. I had stopped at a service station to fill up and I saw that there were several people inside the station. It was a small service station on a very busy street in Montreal. I saw several people who did not seem to have any reason for being there. That made me sit up. I said to myself that I would pay attention and be careful. But I did have to pay for the gas I had put in my car.

So I went into the service station and I noticed that the young man behind the counter welcomed me with a big smile, but he had shifty eyes. There was someone quite close to me, and two other people came up as I provided my card with my PIN to make the payment by Interac. I was not carrying any cash. Since the 1990s, no one carries cash. It is easier to pay by Interac.

I was aware of all that around me, but I was a woman alone and I was afraid. I did not know what would happen if I reacted. Would I be attacked if I did not want to use my card and tried to find another way to pay? Would they beat me up if I turned and tried to leave? I told myself I would pay and as soon as I got out I would call the Caisses Desjardins, my service provider. And that is what I did.

As soon as I left, I hurried into a side street and parked. I called the Caisses Desjardins to tell them that I strongly suspected that my Interac number had been taken by the people in the service station. The Caisses Desjardins immediately cancelled the privileges attached to the Interac card. They were thus able to prevent a crime. Representatives of the Caisses Desjardins called me back to tell me that the people had indeed tried to use my card with my PIN. My card itself was not involved, because I had got it back, but they had taken a sort of imprint. They were able to take an imprint of the card while I was using it in the machine. They got my card and my PIN. It really worried me and I realized just how easy it is for people to take personal data, even though we are careful, alert, hardened and in good shape.

My remarks this afternoon will be directed at one of the exceptions in this bill. It contains a very notable exception, which struck me at first. I wondered why. The bill provides two exemptions which would protect from proceedings for falsification those persons who create false papers for covert government operations and would allow public officers, that is law enforcement personnel, to create and use covert identities in furtherance of their duties.

In the light of what we have heard in recent days, I simply wondered whether usurping the government's identity would not be considered fraud. Some of our colleagues in the Conservative Party have usurped the government's identity by putting the Conservative Party logo on their cheques along with their name and their signature. I wondered whether, if these people were sentenced for fraud through theft of identity—false—they would be considered covert law enforcement officers. Should this be considered work never mentioned, covert operations and be kept quiet? Would these persons be considered thus or as having truly committed fraud against the government and guilty of the offences set out in the bill?

Whatever the case, I assume that the guilty parties will be very happy today that the members of the Bloc continually oppose minimum sentences.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

You realize that, had there been minimum sentences in this bill, we would have here people who are required, because they broke the law, to serve--

[Paule Brunelle]

--long years in prison.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Yes, long years in prison, as my colleague from Trois-Rivières has said.

It may seem odd but we have to be careful when drafting a bill. This morning, I asked my colleague from Marc-Aurèle-Fortin if he thought that the government was in a little too much of a hurry to pass its bills and everything to do with its law and order legislative agenda. In fact, it seems that they want to move quickly, that they want to ram it down our throats so that citizens will think that it is the kind of good government that defends the widows and orphans. That kind of government does not necessarily advertise the replacement of doorknobs, as occurred recently. They spent $100,000 to announce that some doorknobs were going to be replaced. I have serious doubts about the pertinence of certain aspects of this bill.

I have serious doubts and at the same time, out of concern for those people we must protect, we must ensure that the bills put forward will truly meet the needs of our citizens and our society.

To that end, we truly need a government that works with the provinces and territories to ensure that we have all the structures required to implement the bill. If we do not have enough police officers or enough supports in place to implement this bill, we will not be able to thwart those who have been engaging in fraud for a very long time and who will continue to do so.

My colleague talked about a person who went away on vacation and returned home to find someone else living in his house. That could happen to anyone. We have to recognize that in our society, fraudsters are the most obvious bad guys, but they are not the only bad guys on the list. Other individuals help carry out these crimes. There have been corrupt notaries, corrupt lawyers, and less-than-honest bank and financial institution employees. We have to understand that perpetrating fraud can involve several people.

We saw that with Vincent Lacroix and Norbourg. The bank he was dealing with gave him tips for committing fraud. That is not right. Individuals who should be trustworthy betrayed the trust of people who placed their money in such institutions. The important thing is for the government to work with the provinces, but I have my doubts.

As my colleague from Shefford pointed out, this government is not interested in working with any of the provinces on a long-term basis on issues that really matter. It claims to be open, to want to work with the provinces, but when real things happen, when real situations arise, they ignore the National Assembly of Quebec's unanimous—that being the operative word—decisions. We have seen this happen with Kyoto, with the securities commission, and now. The government is willing to go to the Supreme Court to make sure that it can implement something that nobody other than the federal government and Ontario want because they are the only ones who would benefit.

We have to be wary of this government. I say that because I know that someone tried to impersonate me in my riding, to impersonate my office by sending my fellow citizens various brochures. I did not send these items, which were about the Conservatives' so-called recovery plan, their so-called Bill C-268. They accused Bloc members in general and me in particular of speaking against children and for molesters and abusers. That too is fraud. That too is taking advantage of people's weakness, taking advantage of elderly people who are isolated. That is playing on people's fears. It is not honest, and it is not right.

Having seen such false advertising, who can blame us for doubting the government's good faith when it says that it wants to pass its law and order legislative agenda to help victims of crime? If the government wants to help these people, it should do something about the 500 First Nations women who were murdered and raped. Nothing was done for them, nobody looked for any answers, nobody tried to figure out why it happened or find the people who did it. If the government really wants to help victims of crime, it should act on the information we already have, in areas under its jurisdiction that it has the power to do something about.

It should not try to intervene in areas that are not under its jurisdiction.

I will close by saying that we will vote for this bill because we truly believe that white-collar criminals should be punished and put in jail.

I would remind my colleagues that such criminals should be very glad we voted against minimum prison sentences, because as of now, those sentences would have applied to them.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, I would like to congratulate the hon. member for Laval for her excellent presentation on identity theft. This is an extremely serious problem that has existed for a long time. It seems as though identity theft is now rampant, not only in Quebec, Canada and North America, but all over the world.

My colleague used an analogy that may sound like a joke, namely the identity theft by the Conservatives who steal the government's identity when they present cheques.

I wonder if she could elaborate on this type of identity theft. Would it be covered by Bill S-4, and could it be deemed to be a criminal issue?

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert. I also congratulate her for the thoroughness and the wisdom that she displays in dealing with every issue that she tackles. We know she works very hard for the Quebec cultural community and, therefore, for the Canadian cultural sector.

She is very familiar with the issue that she just raised. We talked about it earlier in the lobby. It is one of her assistants who pointed out this situation. She is absolutely right. We see MPs presenting cheques bearing the Conservative Party logo, instead of the Government of Canada logo. We see MPs presenting cheques with their photo and their signature, instead of the Government of Canada signature. Let us not forget that when the government gives money, that money does not come from the party, but from the government.

Taxpayers across Canada and Quebec should expect their political representatives to be honest when they are given the responsibility of managing money. We are well aware that 57% of the funds allocated this year to projects under the economic recovery plan were given to Conservative ridings. We are well aware that Quebec only received 7% of the money allocated under that plan. We know very well why, and we also know that the funding provided found its way in ridings where the blue is darker. It was definitely not in ridings with the lighter blue of the Bloc Québécois. No, it was in dark blue ridings.

My colleague is right and I say it is fraud. It is not honest. It is dishonest and the people involved should consider themselves very lucky that this bill includes a provision exempting government officials.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate the hon. member for Laval for her comments which, as usual, were relevant. This member of Parliament is very passionate about her work and she is dedicated to the well-being of her community.

When we talk about identity theft, it is essential to frame the debate. Indeed, identity theft affects the whole integrity of a person. It affects the person's physical and psychological integrity, and it is a very disturbing experience.

As parliamentarians, we certainly have a responsibility to ensure that the public can feel safe and confident regarding all aspects of life, including financial and other ones.

I wonder if the hon. member could elaborate on those individuals who steal other people's identity. I would also ask her to explain how, by addressing people's emotions rather than their intelligence, we end up undermining their confidence. I would also like her to tell us to what extent we parliamentarians must be honest, must live in a glass house and must protect ourselves from any loss of confidence.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague from Trois-Rivières, who also works very hard for her fellow citizens. Every time Conservative members rise to speak, they praise the Conservative member who spoke before them, so I presume we can do the same. I would therefore like to sing the praises of my colleague from Trois-Rivières, who is a model member.

She is quite right. I think more money needs to be invested in prevention and education. As we were saying earlier, this crime is quite often committed against vulnerable people—people who are isolated, older people, people who are unable to talk to someone else or ask for more information.

She is also right to say that we must be careful. This crime really attacks people's integrity and hurts people on the deepest possible level. Having your identity stolen really leaves you feeling violated. For a woman, this is not an easy situation. It is not an enviable situation. I can attest to that.

The most important thing my colleague said is the fact that all members of this House must be held responsible. All members of this House must ensure that laws are respected by everyone. Yes, we live in a glass house, and because we live in a glass house, we must remain beyond reproach. My colleague knows this very well.

Fortunately, in Quebec, René Lévesque cleaned up public finances. He made sure that all the members of the various national parties had to be honest and that contributions came from individuals, and not from businesses. Very stringent rules were introduced. I would like those rules to be the same for everyone, for all MPPs and all MPs. We must all inevitably obey those rules. We need to be as pure as the driven snow, considering the people we represent, who have honoured us by electing us to this House.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to commend my three colleagues on their eloquent speeches which, more importantly, dealt directly with the issue at hand. Often, members stray from the subject of a bill, but in this instance, I think we stuck to the issue.

We mentioned prevention. Members will agree that it is all fine and well to talk about ways to repress new offences, but the fact remains that the only aspect that was neglected was prevention.

Prevention is also an important aspect. Looking into prevention would already go a long way toward stopping repression and stopping crime. As I said earlier in my speech, without prevention, things are allowed to continue and they will not improve over time.

I would like to hear my hon. colleague on the issue of prevention. I think this is an important objective for a bill.