Bill C-232 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages)

This enactment amends the Supreme Court Act and introduces a new requirement for judges appointed to the Supreme Court to understand English and French without the assistance of an interpreter.

Supreme Court Act

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Madam Speaker, I am very happy to rise in the House this afternoon to express my support for Bill C-232, which was introduced by my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst.

Since I became a member of Parliament nearly six years ago, this member and I have sat together on the Standing Committee on Official Languages. We may not always see eye to eye, but we always work to the same end when it comes to bilingualism. We also promote bilingualism so that it plays an active role in Canadian society.

Today, the end is finally in sight for this bill my colleague introduced in the House, and I hope it will be passed in the near future.

My colleague from Bourassa introduced a similar bill, but it died on the order paper when the Conservative government hastily called an election in the fall of 2008.

This bill does not try to tell all Canadians that they have to be bilingual. That is not the purpose of the bill. But under this bill, all Canadians have the right to be heard in their own language in the Supreme Court. That is a huge difference. It is not imperative that all Canadians be bilingual, but we want every individual or lawyer who appears before the Supreme Court of Canada—the highest court in the country—to be able to use the language of his or her choice.

More and more, Canadians are realizing the importance of bilingualism, even though no one is required to be bilingual.

My colleague from Acadie—Bathurst named several organizations that support his bill. I will not repeat all their names, for I want to talk about something else. I would like to mention one, however, Canadian Parents for French. I say hats off to this group of anglophone parents who want to ensure that their children can receive an education in their second language. This will help them develop their bilingual skills in the areas of education, work and their social lives in general. This kind of organization or community group understands the importance of bilingualism. We must be able to continue supporting them.

Supreme Court judges sit on the highest court in the land. If someone is not satisfied with the Supreme Court ruling, we cannot tell them to plead their case to another court at a higher level. That is impossible, because that court is the highest court. Accordingly, we must provide adequate services to citizens who appear before it. To do so, we cannot forget certain things when trying a case.

For instance, my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst gets carried away now and again, but that is his nature. He uses expressions that are unique to him. In a speech, however, the expressions are just as important as the vocabulary one uses. Before a court, people speak passionately to get their point across. A judge's perception can be very different if simultaneous interpretation is used. Once again, it is not that the simultaneous interpretation is bad. On the contrary, it is an excellent service.

However, as we all can appreciate, defendants and their lawyers may talk so quickly that their way of speaking and the words they use could have completely different meanings for a francophone judge and an anglophone judge. Accordingly, judges must be able to speak and understand both official languages, so that defendants can be guaranteed that they can make themselves understood before the Supreme Court. If it does not work, at least they will have the satisfaction of knowing they took their case as far as they could.

They will have to take comfort in that fact that they were able to make their point fully without getting the impression that interpretation worked against them.

We have argued that the words used will be translated. My family name is D'Amours. It would be translated as Alove by those who can translate. That is not the same; it might be someone else's name. The purpose of this example is to show that this sort thing can make a difference when in court. I can completely change the meaning of a sentence or expression.

Bill C-232 introduced by my colleague does not require every Canadian to be bilingual and undergo training in both official languages. It provides that a citizen or lawyer will be able to plead a case before the highest court in the land in the language of their choice, knowing that the people in front of them understand what they are saying.

We are not talking about introducing a fourth, fifth, sixth or seventh language at the Supreme Court. We are talking about this country's two official languages: French and English. Both French and English-speaking people in my riding expect me to address them in their own language. People expect that much of a private member. They expect it even more when they go before the highest court in the land. They expect that they will be addressed in their own language and that the final judgment will be made on the basis of the message that was conveyed.

The Conservatives can say they are making an effort regarding the bilingualism of judges. The Supreme Court judge who replaced Justice Bastarache is bilingual, but this cannot just happen from time to time; it has to happen every time, with an emphasis on the word “every”.

I do not know why the Conservatives are against Supreme Court judges being bilingual. Very few people are against my colleague's bill. However, my colleague has realized that a number of members opposite are against the bill. We see that they are out of touch with reality.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

My colleague is grandstanding.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Madam Speaker, the Conservative member opposite may be tired of grandstanding, but he should have more respect for the matter we are discussing because it is extremely important.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Especially coming from a francophone.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

And a francophone from outside Quebec no less, who should understand that francophones outside Quebec are also entitled to be served in their language, especially in the highest court in the land.

I am getting worked up, which might make things more difficult for the interpreters. It is insulting to hear such comments. We have to keep fighting to make the Conservatives understand the reality of things.

Bill C-232 introduced by the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst, requiring Supreme Court judges to be bilingual, is a good move for a good cause.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Madam Speaker, I will be speaking today about Bill C-232, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages).

The Bloc Québécois supports the principle of Bill C-232 for the following reasons.

This bill seeks to make the understanding of French and English without the assistance of an interpreter a requirement for judges appointed to the Supreme Court. The Official Languages Act provides that English and French have equality of status and use. It is the right of any citizen to use French or English before Canada's courts, based on fundamental linguistic rights and the Official Languages Act, which already recognizes the importance of being understood without the assistance of an interpreter before federal tribunals such as the Tax Court of Canada, the Federal Court and the Federal Court of Appeal. Furthermore, simultaneous translation can create problems because it does not allow adequate reaction time to interrupt someone, to ask questions, whether for the justice, the lawyers or even the individuals subject to trial who have a right to be able to understand all the nuances and subtleties of each language

For all these reasons, we support this bill.

The Constitution and the Official Languages Act state that English and French are the official languages, and that they have equality of status and equal rights and privileges as to their use in all institutions of the Parliament and the Government of Canada. Under the Constitution and the Official Languages Act, there is full and equal access in both languages to Parliament, to the laws of Canada and to courts.

The Official Languages Act provides the details and conditions for access to the courts in both official languages. Under the law, federal courts other than the Supreme Court of Canada—at this time—have the duty to ensure that any officer who hears proceedings: is able to understand English without the assistance of an interpreter, if English is the language chosen by the parties for the proceedings; is able to understand French without the assistance of an interpreter, if French is the language chosen by the parties for the proceedings; is able to understand both languages without the assistance of an interpreter, if both English and French are the languages chosen by the parties for the proceedings.

As recognized by the Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de common law, a member of the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, Canada's Official Languages Act recognizes the importance of being understood before federal tribunals without the assistance of an interpreter. The same law should apply to the Supreme Court of Canada. Ironically, the Officially Languages Act currently excludes the Supreme Court from these conditions, even though it is the highest court in the country.

The Bloc Québécois thinks that this should change, which is why it supports Bill C-232, currently before the House.

We keep hearing that Canada is our country. But we can appear before a Supreme Court judge and they are not required to understand French, our language. This would not happen if Quebec were a sovereign nation. This is one of the main issues.

The original bill, introduced in the 39th Parliament, which required Supreme Court judges to understand both official languages, got a number of reactions and received considerable support, in particular, the support of the Quebec National Assembly. On May 21, 2008, all the members present at the Quebec National Assembly unanimously adopted a motion that stated:

That the National Assembly of Québec affirm that French language proficiency is a prerequisite and essential condition for the appointment of Supreme Court of Canada judges.

The Premier of Quebec said:

Knowledge of French is important, very important. It is not a choice. And the message we are sending today to the federal government is that it is not optional—

He added that this motion was a “requirement”.

To know a language is to know a culture, a reality. And those who are called on to interpret that reality and make decisions that will have a very important impact on our lives have to know that reality through our language.

—open federalism must ensure that judges appointed to the Supreme Court by Ottawa know Canada's two official languages.

The Standing Committee on Official Languages also looked at the issue of comprehension of the two official languages by Supreme Court judges during the 39th Parliament.

In its fourth report, which was released in May 2008—I was there—it “recommends that the government ensure that the judges that they appoint to the Supreme Court are bilingual”, in other words, that they speak French and English.

I should note that the Conservative members of the Standing Committee on Official Languages refused to support this motion, which was similar to Quebec's motion. That is deplorable. Some of those Conservatives were Quebec francophones who renounced their own language. And that is terrible.

The Canadian Bar Association decided to take a stand in favour of requiring that future Supreme Court judges be bilingual. The association supports a merit-based process for appointing judges, but believes that bilingualism should be one of the selection criteria.

In May 2009, Commissioner of Official Languages Graham Fraser came to testify before the Standing Committee on Official Languages, which was then looking at the issue of access to justice. I will quote from what he said:

Every Canadian’s right to use English or French in Canadian courts is one of the basic language rights set out in our constitutional framework.

To ensure that all litigants have true access to the superior courts in the official language of their choice, it is essential that these courts have a sufficient number of bilingual judges at their disposal. The appointment process must therefore ensure the bilingual capacity of superior courts. Otherwise, access to justice in both official languages is compromised...

To date, the federal government’s responses to the recommendations of my predecessors and the House of Commons and Senate committees have been timid and largely inadequate.

...

On the eve of the 40th anniversary of the Official Languages Act, it seems to me that knowledge of both official languages should be one of the qualifications sought for judges of Canada’s highest court. Setting such a standard would prove to all Canadians that the Government of Canada is committed to linguistic duality. I find it essential that an institution as important as the Supreme Court of Canada not only be composed of judges with exceptional legal skills, but also reflect our values and our Canadian identity as a bijural and bilingual country.

Access to justice is one of the cornerstones of our judicial system. The insufficient bilingual capacity of the superior courts and courts of appeal of the provinces and territories means that a significant segment of the Canadian population is being denied the right to access justice in the official language of its choice.

...A review of the appointment process is essential to ensuring equal access to justice in both official languages.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to speak in support of the member for Acadie—Bathurst's bill, Bill C-232, which is very important for the House to debate. I also acknowledge the tireless work that the member for Acadie—Bathurst does in defence of official languages and for being such an excellent watchdog when the government fails in its duty to uphold the official languages of this country.

I am an anglophone from western Canada. It is interesting that two members from western Canada are speaking about the bill today. One is opposed, but I am very much in favour.

I will talk a bit about why it is so important. First, the legislation provides a clear signal for all levels of the judiciary in our country. When legislation is introduced in Parliament, it comes to us in both official languages. We know it is absolutely our right in the House to be heard in either language of our choice.

As you rightly pointed out, Madam Speaker, sometimes we provide some challenges for the interpreters here. Whatever language we choose to speak, sometimes our passion about a particular subject will have speak very quickly and it does not allow the interpreters to keep up with the speed of our speech. That deprives the members, who listen in that other language of their choice, of their right to hear what the member has said.

Many of us in the House have had experiences where, either because of the noise in the House or the rapidity of our speech, we have been unable to have our words heard by members who listen in another language. That very challenge is why it is incumbent, when we talk about Supreme Court justices, that the justices are fully fluent in both of our Canadian languages, English and French.

People who have their cases heard before court in whatever language of their choice should have a comfort level that the justices are able to understand in whatever language the case is presented. It seems fundamental to me, and Canadians agree, that we do have two official languages.

I want to digress just a little for a moment and talk about why this is so important. By taking it out of the realm of talking about English and French and putting it into another realm, I think it may be easier for people to understand why it is absolutely essential that we honour the Official Languages Act and recognize that people have the right to be served in their language of choice at all levels.

It is probably no surprise to many members of the House that I will talk about indigenous languages. Members may not be aware that in 1989 the Assembly of First Nations declared March 31 as National Aboriginal Languages Day. I will use some other people's words to talk about why that is so important.

Last year in the Yukon legislative assembly, Mr. Cardiff rose in recognition of National Aboriginal Languages Day. He said:

It is said that language is culture. A person's culture is expressed most clearly in the process of their language use. Thinking patterns, values and actions are all underlaid by language expression. Daily use of the language means that the culture is strong and that it is passed on.

Mr. Edzerza's mother language is Tahltan, but he unfortunately grew up without the ability to speak it. He talked about the impact of his language and culture on growing up. He said:

—the Council of Yukon First Nations did a Yukon regional health survey, called Reclaiming the Well-being of Our People. The survey results showed 87 percent of those surveyed said loss of their language had a very negative impact on their lives today, and 91 percent of youth and children rate that knowing their traditional language is very important to them.

He goes on to say:

In 1994, Elder Percy Henry gave a powerful message to all people about language when he said...“A car with no gas can't go. A tree with no branches can't grow. So as native people who have lost their language, part of us is gone. Your spirit is strong; your fire inside of you is strong; you have it all when you speak your own language.”

That speaks very powerfully in our country. Both francophones and anglophones, if they should end up in a Supreme Court justice situation, need to be understood.

Many of the nuances being presented in an argument, even if it is not around a justice issue, can be lost in interpretation.

In speaking about the importance of language, I want to refer to the comments of an expert in the area. Graham Fraser, the Commissioner of Official Languages, said:

--it seems to me that the knowledge of both official languages should be one of the qualifications sought for judges of Canada's highest court. Setting such a standard would prove to all Canadians that the Government of Canada is committed to linguistic duality. I find it essential that an institution as important as the Supreme Court of Canada not only be composed of judges with exceptional legal skills, but also reflect our values and our Canadian identity as a bijural and bilingual country.

We have heard some arguments in this House, although not many, that appointments to the Supreme Court bench should be based on merit.

Where I live in Nanaimo--Cowichan, there is a very strong francophonie association. French immersion courses are oversubscribed. People on the west coast are very interested in being fluently bilingual, being able to speak both English and French, because that is what our country is about.

I would argue that by establishing that Supreme Court justices will be bilingual, we will be sending a very clear message that when people enter law school and have some ambitions to being appointed to the bench, they will take the responsibility to learn both English and French in order to be considered for that kind of appointment.

Graham Fraser indicated:

If Parliament were to pass this bill, it would send a powerful message to Canada's law schools that mastering both official languages is a prerequisite for full mastery of the law, and for qualification for the most important and prestigious positions in the Canadian judiciary.

Canadians are very intelligent people. If bilingualism is a job requirement to be a Supreme Court justice, they will understand that they must be fluent in both English and French. I encourage all members of this House to support the member for Acadie—Bathurst's very fine piece of legislation and vote yes on it.

[The Acting Speaker, Denise Savoie]

The hon. member will have two minutes left when this bill returns.

The time provided for the consideration of private members' business has now expired, and the order is dropped to the bottom of the order of precedence on the order paper.

It being 2:30 p.m., this House stands adjourned until Monday next at 11:00 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 2:30 p.m.)

The House resumed from March 19 consideration of the motion that Bill C-232, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages), be read the third time and passed.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House to speak to Bill C-232, An Act to amend the Supreme Court Act (understanding the official languages). The bill would create a requirement that all individuals appointed to the Supreme Court of Canada be able to understand the proceedings before them in both English and French without the aid of an interpreter.

Our government is committed to promoting the use of both official languages in Canadian society. Canada's bilingual nature is a fundamental aspect of our national identity. As Canadians, we pride ourselves in our country's bilingual institutions. This is particularly the case with respect to the Supreme Court of Canada, which plays a fundamental role in our democratic society as the ultimate guardian of the values enshrined in the Canadian Bill of Rights and Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

The Supreme Court's mission statement, as set out in its public website, is to serve Canadians by leading the development of common and civil law through its decisions on questions of public importance. In the context of this mission, the court has declared its commitment to the rule of law, independence and impartiality, and accessibility to justice.

There is no doubt that the judges of our Supreme Court faithfully pursue these important goals on a daily basis. Indeed, the court consistently provides all Canadians with the highest quality of justice they expect and deserve.

Hon. members are well aware that the Supreme Court of Canada is recognized nationally and internationally as a model of collegiality, professionalism and superior capacity. Canadians may take tremendous pride in the stature that our judges hold around the world.

In light of the important role of the Supreme Court, as the pinnacle of our justice system, the government's overriding consideration in the appointment of judges to the court is, and must continue to be, merit based on legal excellence and personal suitability. Bilingualism remains an important factor in the assessment of candidates considered among other factors, including proficiency in the law, judgment, honesty, integrity, fairness, work habits and social awareness.

The composition of the court, including a number of judges, is established by the Supreme Court Act, which provides that at least three of the justices must come from Quebec. As a matter of long-standing practice, the composition of the Supreme Court of Canada has reflected regional representation with the remaining judges appointed from Ontario, Atlantic Canada, the Prairies and British Colombia.

The practice of ensuring regional representation guarantees that the most qualified and deserving candidates across the country are appointed to the Supreme Court of Canada. Bill C-232 proposes to circumvent this exemption, which would in fact hinder regional representation to the court.

We must draw a distinction between institutional bilingualism and individual bilingualism. Institutional bilingualism is a fundamental and historic component of the government's responsibilities in ensuring that both official language communities can be served in either English or French. Individual bilingualism, which is improperly advocated by Bill C-232 as a requirement, would undermine that component.

Currently, the Supreme Court, as an institution, provides services of the highest quality in both official languages. The proposed amendment would make bilingualism a pre-condition to appointment. Given the extraordinary complexity and the importance of the cases heard by the court, this would require the highest level of linguistic capacity necessary for understanding the most refined and difficult judicial arguments, based on extensive factual evidence in both official languages.

There are subtleties of language that many of our best legal minds across Canada may not have fully mastered, and the stakes are high. Our most important rights hang in the balance. It is the government's position that the proposed amendment is not necessary to ensure access to the court in either official language.

The court provides all its services and communications in English and French. In addition, every individual who appears before the court is free to use either English or French in written and oral proceedings. The court's decisions are issued in English and French, thereby also contributing to a growing case of bilingual case law that is accessible to all Canadians and others worldwide.

The goal of ensuring the rights of Canadians to be heard and understood in the language of their choice is already being fully met by the court. The current composition requirements of the Supreme Court Act, together with the historical practice of regional representation, allow us to preserve our important commitment to legal pluralism, while at the same time ensuring that Canadians are served by judges of the highest distinction and ability. It has provided Canadians with a strong and independent judiciary that is the envy of free and democratic governments throughout the world.

The effect of Bill C-232 would be to have linguistic considerations override the central consideration of merit by reducing the pool of otherwise highly qualified candidates in some regions of the country where there may be fewer lawyers and judges capable of hearing a case in both official languages. We recognize that there must be sufficient linguistic capacity in our courts to provide equal access to justice in both English and French. The government has been and will remain vigilant in seeking competence in both official languages to achieve this goal.

Thus, bilingualism will remain an important criterion in the process of selecting judges to Canada's Supreme Court. However, such a factor should not eclipse the overruling consideration of merit and legal excellence in maintaining and nurturing the fairest justice system in the world.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I do not think it will surprise anyone to hear that I will support this bill, but I want to say it to avoid any confusion. I support this bill, and I encourage all my colleagues in the official opposition and those in other parties to do the same. I will use my time to try to explain as openly as possible why I support this bill.

I hope we can all agree that our society is not static; we live in a society and a world that is constantly evolving. Everything changes. We hope that it is for the better. Pressure leads to change, and we always hope that it improves the situation. So it is not surprising that our laws reflect this desire to improve our society and to improve the lives of our fellow citizens.

Today we are looking at the results of enacting of Canada's Official Languages Act in 1969, over 40 years ago. In those 40 years, the application of this legislation has continuously evolved, so much so that no one now opposes the notion that Canada has two official languages, French and English. That just shows how our society and our federation are always evolving.

In 1988, the Conservative government at the time, led by the right hon. Brian Mulroney, supported by the official opposition at the time, even made two amendments to this act. Furthermore, in 2005, another amendment was made by the Liberal government of the day, supported by the official opposition, which was led by the current Prime Minister of Canada. This shows that on both sides of the House, whether it is a Liberal government with a Conservative opposition, or a Conservative government with a Liberal opposition, we all seem to agree on the nature of this linguistic duality and its evolving nature.

The adoption of a charter of rights and freedoms within a constitutional framework and of amending formulas in 1985 is another example of this. It was quite a dramatic change, and it had been discussed for several decades in this country. I later had the opportunity and the honour, as a member, of sitting on a special committee that was formed to bring about a bilateral constitutional amendment between Quebec and Canada that changed the nature of the school boards in Quebec. With this amendment, the denominational school boards became English and French boards. This is yet another example of the changing nature of our society, its legislative framework and our institutions.

I can give other examples. New Brunswick declared itself officially bilingual when the official languages legislation was passed. It was the only province to do so. That was another occasion. Since then, Ontario, Nova Scotia, Manitoba and Saskatchewan have all passed legislation, made regulations and adopted policies to give effect to Canada's linguistic duality.

Each of these occasions was marked by a strong determination to better reflect Canada's reality and ensure that all Canadians can be served in both languages, as well as the desire to learn together. There have also been changes at the municipal level. Moncton has declared itself an officially bilingual city. These are examples.

I now come to this bill.

I congratulate my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst on his bill and the work he has done in this area. This bill is in keeping with the changing nature of our federation and its institutions.

When the National Assembly of Quebec began debating this bill, the party leaders—Mr. Charest, Mr. Dumont and Ms. Marois—had their say. The vote was unanimous; everyone was in favour of such an initiative. They saw that it made sense.

Our two solitudes sometimes need to come together and learn to get to know each other. Sometimes they unite, but above all they have to get along. I am going to give some other telling examples that concern all the members of the House.

In order to reflect the will of the people, the party leaders have learned both official languages. Some of my colleagues, those on either side of the House—government or opposition, I make no distinction—may hope to become ministers. People who are learning French or English in the House know that anyone who wants to become prime minister, must be able to address constituents in both of our country's official languages.

People who preside in the House must also learn the other official language. It shows respect, good will and recognition towards the two official languages. Those in charge of our institutions, such as Canada's Parliament, the political parties and the Supreme Court, must also speak both languages and be able to understand their fellow citizens, no matter which of our official languages they use. It is the same for the upper house.

Things are moving in the right direction. Bilingualism is part of our country's identity and my colleague's bill is part of this evolution.

I am not disagreeing with the Conservatives' argument that Supreme Court judges must be chosen based on their legal skills and good judgment. I believe that one of those skills is the ability to understand the language in which a person is presenting to them, be it French or English, our two official languages. It is logical to ask that the nine Supreme Court judges be able to understand both languages.

During the debate in Quebec, the party leaders I mentioned also recognized the fact that the judges from Quebec should speak both languages too.

I encourage all parties in the House to support my colleague's bill, which is fully in line with our country's evolution.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am also very pleased to rise here today to speak to Bill C-232 introduced by my NDP colleague.

I am especially pleased to do so because I firmly believe that everyone, whether they speak French or English, has the right to be heard by someone who understands them. Of course, Mr. Speaker, you understand me, but if I am not lucky enough to have an interpreter who gives an excellent translation, you will not understand me.

Sometimes certain differences in terms of culture or language might not be properly understood. There are certain nuances in the language spoken by a particular group of people or nation that cannot necessarily be translated, regardless of the quality of the translation.

That is only one of the main reasons the Bloc Québécois and I personally believe strongly in this bill. Indeed, everyone is entitled to a full and complete defence. Everyone is entitled to be heard and understood by the Supreme Court judges who must rule on these matters. They are asked to make very important decisions and examine very serious issues. If they cannot read the files in their original language, they may not be able to understand the essence of the issue, not because of a lack of intelligence, but rather because of a lack familiarity with the culture associated with the other language.

When a judge cannot read newspapers or listen to the news in French, and cannot hear a conversation in French and understand the essence of it, how can that judge rule on potentially disturbing facts and on important decisions that may become part of case law?

I would like to give an example. Last week, from March 13 to 20, we were in Buenos Aires, Argentina. That week, a big story in Canadian papers, especially in Quebec papers—because there was a time when Quebec was a very religious nation, a nation of believers—was the scandal in Rome concerning pedophile priests. Apparently, the Pope had trouble removing pedophile priests from their functions.

When I arrived in Buenos Aires, this was the top story on television and everyone was talking about it. It got constant airtime all day long. That is because people in Buenos Aires, Argentina, are still very religious. The news was of tremendous importance to them. However, in the United States, Canada and Quebec, other stories were on the front page. In the United States, the top story was the health care bill that Barack Obama was trying to get through the Senate and the House so that all Americans could have access to health care. Here, Afghanistan and the documents we were supposed to get from the government but had not yet received were still making headlines. We have received some documents since then, but they are so heavily whited out that they are unreadable.

Clearly, one nation's realities are not the same as another's. To understand these realities, the people who legislate and who decide what goes into a Supreme Court report or ruling must be able to understand not just the words, but the overall context. The people who do that have to be bilingual at the very least. The Commissioner of Official Languages was absolutely right. He dismissed claims made by the member for Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, who was elected by a francophone majority and then had the gall to act against its wishes and, as a member of the Standing Committee on Official Languages, decide that English was the most important language for judges to speak.

I do not understand why that hon. member thinks an anglophone judge is better qualified and more knowledgeable than a bilingual francophone judge.

What is more, most francophone judges and lawyers speak English as well. We very rarely see a bilingual anglophone judge. Most anglophone judges have not bothered to learn French. But when someone wants to rise to such a high position, a position where they represent the people and make the important decisions, they should at least make the effort to learn both official languages of the country they represent. It is an indispensable condition.

It is hard to believe there could be a Supreme Court justice who does not understand French, who is unable to read and understand rulings that have been made and who has to rely on translations. Even though these texts are translated well and convey the meaning, basically, they do not explain motivations.

As the Liberal member was saying earlier, Quebec has decided to replace the religious school boards with linguistic school boards. I do not know if that has been done elsewhere, but the nation of Quebec has made the necessary decisions. Even if this is not being done elsewhere, the Supreme Court of Canada has to make decisions that reflect all of Canada, Quebec and the Atlantic provinces.

My honourable NDP colleague has mounted a strong defence of the Francophone cause. However, we must ensure that measures are in place to protect the rights of French-language communities—those inside as well as outside Quebec—in 10, 15 or 20 years. Every day, senseless decisions are made.

For example, the Vancouver Olympic Games showed that it is difficult to ensure respect for the French language. Not long ago, the citizens of Burnaby, British Columbia, received a brochure that was printed in five languages, but not in French. This was highlighted in our press review this morning. And yet, Francophones make up a fairly large segment of British Columbia's population. Why continue to deny it?

The City of Ottawa is bilingual. However, the mayor does not speak French; he cannot speak to citizens in French. When Ms. Harel wanted to run for mayor of Montreal, she was accused of not speaking English; she was never told that she speaks impeccable French. And yet, that is the case. It was not the English press, but the French press that objected to the fact that she did not speak English. We are quite concerned about the Anglophone minority. However, this should be the case for the Francophone community.

True concern for the Francophone community does not mean talking out of both sides of one's mouth. The Conservatives are very good at that, as demonstrated by their advertising campaign. One day, they will have to face the facts: the Francophones of Quebec and Canada will no longer be pushed around. We will not put up with it. We have rights and we will ensure that those rights are respected.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Mr. Speaker, since March 20 was the 40th anniversary of the International Day of La Francophonie, I am happy and very proud to have the opportunity to speak about why the members of the House of Commons should support Bill C-232.

The bill proposes that any judge appointed to the Supreme Court of Canada must be able to speak to the people in both official languages.

A number of organizations support this bill, which would ensure that statements made by someone addressing a Supreme Court judge are understood without the need for interpretation.

Canada's laws must be written in English and French so that judges and lawyers understand them well and the latter can better represent their clients.

The Supreme Court of Canada itself, citing a decision made in Ontario, recognized that Canadians should have the right to be served in the official language of their choice.

There are many francophones in my riding of Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing in northern Ontario. It is up to all members in this House to tell the communities they represent that the government takes bilingualism seriously.

Any document tabled in the House of Commons must be tabled in both official languages. Every member has the right to speak in either of the two languages. It is just as important for this requirement to apply to the Supreme Court of Canada.

It is unbelievable that legislation requires the Federal Court, the Federal Court of Appeal and the Tax Court of Canada to offer bilingual services, but not the Supreme Court.

I completely agree with my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst on this bill.

My constituents want bilingualism to be a requirement for judges of the Supreme Court of Canada.

My riding extends from Timmins to Sudbury to Thunder Bay, an area with a vibrant francophone community. In Hearst, for example, 99.9% of the people are francophone. Most of them are originally from Quebec.

Last year, one of the mayors wrote a letter to the government requesting that any judge appointed to replace a unilingual anglophone judge be bilingual so that citizens would be properly represented.

The Minister of Justice sent the following answer:

Dear Madam:

Thank you for your letter, in which you added your concerns about the appointment of a bilingual judge to the Superior Court of Justice in Cochrane, Ontario—at the time—to those raised by elected officials from the City of Hearst.

I would emphasize that the Government of Canada recognizes the importance of supporting the development of minority language communities.

On the one hand, he recognized that these communities have a need, but on the other, he said that it is not necessary to recognize the needs of francophones when it comes to the Supreme Court of Canada.

Furthermore, I can assure you that this government is determined to ensure that our courts function as well as possible. One way to do that is to make sure that they can hear cases in both official languages.

He recognized that a need existed, but later on in the letter, he said that he would make sure people were receiving proper services. The government may have some influence, but ultimately, he is the one making decisions about who to appoint to the Supreme Court of Canada. Clearly, the government is not yet committed when it comes to official languages.

I worked for Probation and Parole Services for about 13 years. People who have to appear before a judge and want a French-language trial are often at a disadvantage compared to others because they have to wait until a French-speaking judge is available. Wait times in the courts are getting longer and longer. We want this kind of bill to pass so that nobody will have to wait any longer than anyone else for their trial.

I have encountered some problems with translation. Even though someone is interpreting the trial of the person who wants to be judged in French, it is not the same thing. During one of my elections someone needed a short sentence to be translated. The English sentence was: “Please post in window”.

It was translated as, “S'il vous plaît, poteau dans la vitre”. “Post” was treated as a noun instead of a verb, and the sentence became “Please stake into the window”! That is why it is not enough to say that translators are available. Even here in the government when documents are translated, we always have to double-check because not all translators have the same skills. That is why it is very important that a justice of the Supreme Court of Canada, who is going to hear the cases, is truly able to grasp the intention and meaning of the legislation. That is not really possible if one is unilingual.

As I was saying, I support this bill. I want to read a few comments made by certain judges and lawyers on their support for this bill. Graham Fraser said:

So when someone comes forward and says, or says about a candidate, that he is very competent, that he has all of this experience, but he doesn't have the ability to hear a case that's presented before the Supreme Court in the language in which that case is presented, then he is missing a critical competence. He is actually not as competent as a candidate for the Supreme Court who does have that ability.

Michel Doucet, a lawyer, said:

In my opinion, in a Canadian setting, with the legislation that we have and with our interpretation of bilingual legislation, to be competent to sit as a justice of the Supreme Court one must understand both languages.

I could read many more quotes like that, but more and more people support the fact that we need legislation to protect bilingualism in the Supreme Court of Canada. Its judges will understand both official languages. Lawyers and judges, and those aspiring to those professions, will realize they have to learn French to better serve the Canadian public.

Again, I support this bill introduced by the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst.

[Jim Maloway, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to speak to Bill C-232, introduced by my colleague, the member for Acadie—Bathurst.

I was expecting this bill would be passed unanimously in Parliament. I read through the past debates in Hansard and was surprised to find that members of the Conservative Party were very reluctant to proceed, especially when they should be open-minded enough on principle to vote in favour of the bill at second reading and get the bill to committee. If they had any concerns or amendments, they could present them at committee and we could proceed from there.

I believe the Liberals are onside on this bill. The Bloc certainly indicated support. The NDP caucus is solidly onside. I also read with interest the speeches of other members of our caucus, the member for Outremont and the member for Burnaby—New Westminster. I would like to echo their sentiments on this bill.

The bill puts in a new requirement for judges of the Supreme Court to understand English and French without the assistance of an interpreter. That is all it does. That should not be difficult. When appointing judges at that level, we are dealing with extremely competent, qualified people who have considerable education and can understand concepts. Language training should not be a problem for people at that level.

Once again, I am a bit taken aback that Conservative members would present the view that they have.

My wife speaks Spanish and French. Members of her family have sent their children to French immersion schools in Manitoba for the last number of years. As other members have indicated, there is no shortage of French immersion schools in Manitoba. As a matter of fact, the number of people who go to French immersion is rising. That part of the school system is expanding and people are interested in sending their kids to French immersion schools.

My home province of Manitoba has had difficulties over the years. In terms of the province itself, I get questions about Manitoba politics. I was involved provincially for a number of years. There was an issue back in the 1970s which had its roots in 1890 when Manitoba passed the Official Languages Act, which rendered the province unilingual. In 1975 a unilingual parking ticket was issued to Georges Forest. That case and the Bilodeau cases targeted the 1890 Official Languages Act and they won. The province had to deal with the issue.

Rather than translate 100 years of old statutes, the NDP government of the day, of which I was a part, after negotiations with Société franco-manitobaine and the federal government, arrived at an agreement for a constitutional amendment which would have led to the expansion of French language services in Manitoba. We had an agreement. Société franco-manitobaine was in favour of all the new services that it wanted. The provincial government was in favour. The federal government was in favour.

Everything was proceeding as it should, but it was the Conservative opposition of the day that decided to make hay on the issue. It led to acrimony in the legislature, bell ringing, a virtual shutdown of the legislature and a virtual destruction of the government. The government at the end of the day backed down and said it would translate the laws, and that is what happened. What we did not want to happen, to spend millions and millions of dollars to translate 100-year-old laws, happened.

Having said all that, since that time French language services have expanded in Manitoba, so we translated the laws and now we have very good services. As a matter of fact our current premier, Greg Selinger, who is bilingual, who speaks French, has been personally in charge of French language services for the last 10 years, ever since he was the finance minister in 1999 when Gary Doer formed the government. I know he has attended francophonie conferences. He is very active on that file. I have certainly heard him in caucus enough on the issue. I think if we checked, we would find that French language services have expanded in Manitoba under the NDP, under Mr. Selinger, to the extent that there has not been a complaint, a story or any acrimony over the last 10 years. No one has complained that they are not able to get services in the French language.

Our solution at the end of the day has all worked out favourably, while it certainly caused a lot of political problems in the province, caused us to have a bad reputation across the country for a while partly because of some misunderstandings. I do not think there is or should be a role for parties to say one thing at one level in one place and then the opposite on the campaign trail, an election situation or another venue. That is what happened in Manitoba. The opposition basically took an issue and twisted it and tried to make political hay out of the situation.

At the end of the day, guess what? The opposition was successful in causing the government to back down, but the government was re-elected anyway. So the proof is in the pudding, and the proof is that playing angles that should not be played in issues like language, because they can be divisive, does not necessarily get the results we think we should be getting in the long run.

I thought I would deal with that issue because I read Hansard on this issue. Also, I do want to correct an error I might have made at the beginning of my speech when I indicated the Conservatives should support the bill at second reading. My whip, and the author of the bill, points out that we are at third reading right now. Having said that, my intention is still to encourage the Conservatives to come on side. We do have the majority now with all three parties supporting the bill. It makes sense to me that members opposite join the coalition, as they put it, to make this a unanimous bill rather than trying to find ways to slow it down and thwart what is essentially an excellent idea from the member. The member has already gone through a lot with the bill, given that the Prime Minister prorogued the House a few months ago and then we had to start over again when we just spoke on the bill a few months ago.

I am very pleased to have my time on the bill and I know the member wants to make his closing arguments.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I would first like to thank the members who stood up here in the House to support the bill—the member for Madawaska—Restigouche, the member for Gatineau, the member for Nanaimo—Cowichan, the member for Ottawa—Vanier, the member for Laval, the member for Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing and the member for Elmwood—Transcona—as well as all the members who support Bill C-232.

It is important to understand that Bill C-232 does not say that Supreme Court judges must understand French, but that they must understand English and French.

We are not trying to say that anglophone judges appointed to the Supreme Court have to understand French so that francophone judges do not have to learn English. We want the judges to actually speak both languages.

My argument has never changed, and I disagree with the Conservative government's position that it may be difficult to find qualified judges. That is what the Conservatives are saying.

However, the ability to hear a case in both official languages is a skill. Opponents of the bill have often raised the point that highly qualified judges might be overlooked because they do not understand both official languages. That makes no sense. Given that the laws of this country have been written in both official languages without being translated, the ability to understand both versions of the law without translation is an important legal skill.

Mr. Graham Fraser, the Commissioner of Official Languages, said this:

So when someone comes forward and says, or says about a candidate, that he is very competent, that he has all of this experience, but he doesn't have the ability to hear a case that's presented before the Supreme Court in the language in which that case is presented, then he is missing a critical competence.

That is what the Commissioner of Official Languages said. He was appointed by the Conservative Party. I hope it trusts Mr. Graham Fraser. The Conservative Party has appointed Mr. Graham Fraser as Commissioner of Official Languages, and the Commissioner of Official Languages said that.

Then he said that the candidate is missing the critical competence:

He is actually not as competent as a candidate for the Supreme Court who does have that ability.

That is from the Commissioner of Official Languages.

The National Assembly in Quebec has expressed that it is in favour of the Supreme Court being bilingual, being able to understand the two languages. By saying that, it is the two groups that represent the two people who have founded this country, the anglophone and the francophone both being able to understand both languages.

A lawyer who was a teacher from the University of Moncton went to the Supreme Court. He was talking about Mr. St-Coeur and the translator was interpreting the name as “Mr. Five O'clock”. When we have a case like that, we have a problem.

The lawyer, Mr. Doucet, went to the Supreme Court about seven times. He added:

In the week after I had argued a case before the Supreme Court, I had an opportunity to hear the English version of my arguments on CPAC.... The translation did not allow me to understand my own words.

There is a problem then. The Supreme Court of Canada is there to show our country, to show by example. I think it is time to do this.

Just last week I had to raise a question in the House of Commons about appointments of two judges to the appeal court in Nova Scotia being bilingual, because the last time they replaced two bilingual judges with unilingual judges.

That is what I am putting to this House. I hope we have the support of all the members. Then that will become the past and when judges are appointed to the Supreme Court, they will represent what actually happens in our country, the two official languages of our country.

I think this would be the honourable thing to do. I hope I have the support of all of the members.