Bill C-27 (Historical)

First Nations Financial Transparency Act

An Act to enhance the financial accountability and transparency of First Nations

This enactment enhances the financial accountability and transparency of First Nations.

First Nations Financial Transparency Act

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

Mr. Speaker, as I was reading the House notes last night, the first thing that came to my mind, and I am glad the member mentioned it, was to compare Bill C-27 to Bill C-377. I am also glad he used the word “strangle”. That is the proper word to use with this bill and Bill C-377. The Conservatives are trying to strangle or choke organizations that do not agree with Conservative policies. If they cannot choke or strangle them with paperwork, they take away their funding, like they did with KAIROS. It did not agree with the Conservatives' ideology, so it took away its funding. That is the only example I am going to give.

I am going to ask my colleague this. Am I right to compare Bill C-27 to Bill C-377 and say that they are almost the same?

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the member for Nickel Belt is a fantastic member in the House of Commons and is one of the most effective local representatives across the country. He does a great job on behalf of his community.

The difficulty is that the intent is the same. The government's proven complete lack of accountability to the Canadian public, ongoing secrecy and lack of transparency is unbelievable. It would have former Reform Party members rolling over. What it has done absolutely contradicts everything that originally brought the Reform Party to some prominence in the country. There is secrecy and lack of transparency that is incredible, mind-boggling and disrespectful to the Canadian public. At the same time, big industry lobbyists get money and there is no accountability there.

However, if people run a first nation, or run as a democratically-elected officer of a labour movement or are part of an NGO that endeavours to bring things forward, if they do not follow the line of the Conservatives, they will be under attack. That is what the government is doing. It is strangling these organizations with financial red tape and that is despicable.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Mr. Speaker, like my colleague for Burnaby—New Westminster before me, who made such an eloquent and passionate speech, this is one of the motions that I would rather not have to get up to speak on. One would think that we would not have this legislation in front of us when there are so many serious issues to be addressed for our first nation communities across the country.

I have worked as a teacher for a great number of years on beautiful Vancouver Island. I have had the privilege of working very closely with the first nation communities both in Nanaimo and Nanoose. One of the things I have realized over the last couple of decades is that as a society we have a lot of work to do.

For the catastrophe of residential schools, we have had an official apology from this place. However, we need to start addressing some of the very serious issues in our first nation communities around clean water, housing, price of food and health care.

These are areas for which we have been criticized by the rapporteur of the United Nations. This was a criticism that my colleagues across the way did not take too well. Even though the rapporteur is from a well-established international organization that we are a member of, the Conservatives wanted this gentleman's resignation. It is absolutely flabbergasting.

Instead of addressing any of the real day-to-day issues and challenges faced by our aboriginal communities, what do we have? We have another bill that would create more accountability.

Who would not want more accountability? On this side of the House, we want more accountability. We want legislation to be debated and voted on in the House. We do not want time allocations to be called. We also do not want to be faced with bills that are the size of a phone book purporting to be budget bills but buried in them are devastating impacts on our environment, immigration policies and much more.

However, the Conservative government really does not believe in accountability for itself. It has a tendency to use some extreme cases in order to stranglehold those who may not agree with it. I wish I knew what the motive of the Conservatives is. I know they are very good at yelling “accountability” at others, but they have practised none of it themselves. They do not even listen to their own parliamentary officer and they definitely do not give him the information he required so he can give an informed assessment.

I was not here during the last sitting of Parliament, but I believe this legislation is based on a private member's bill from the previous sitting, Bill C-575. This new bill was introduced on November 25, 2011, with a press release that said:

This bill builds on [the member for Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar's] bill that was introduced in the last session of Parliament, addressing the issue of financial transparency for First Nation leaders by expanding the scope of the information to be publicly disclosed beyond the salaries and expenses of chiefs and councillors to include a First Nation's audited consolidated financial statements.

The issue is not really accountability. Once again it is playing to their base. Once again, based on misinformation and limited information, the Conservative government has introduced a piece of legislation. What the government is doing is absolutely outrageous. Using the example of purported salaries in one province alone with one first nations group, it is putting in a kind of surveillance that goes way beyond the requirements for many of our elected officials around this country. Let us take a look at this.

While the Canadian Taxpayers Federation and other Conservative-friendly groups like to talk about the outrageous salaries made by our first nation administrators and leaders, once we actually look at the facts, the reality is that the average salary for chiefs is $60,000 and the average salary for councillors is $31,000. As well, 50% of the chiefs around this country earn less than $60,000 and only 5% earning more than $100,000. This obviously has very little to do with addressing a real issue, so what is it all about?

One of the things that has really struck me since I came to the House is how pieces of legislation such as this get sent to committee, where we really hope there is some parliamentary oversight, discussion, debate and amendments. The NDP proposed 18 amendments and not one was adopted by the majority on the other side. While we were there, we were trying to do something that makes sense: to delink remuneration and expenses. The two things just do not go together. People have different expenses as they carry out their jobs, but to link that to their actual salaries and then conflate that figure is just outrageously unjust.

The other thing we tried to do with an amendment was to remove the power of the minister to withhold funds. We know the kinds of terrible conditions that exist for first nations right across this country. To think that any minister would be able to withhold funds, let us remember that funding is to provide for education, health care and to subsidize the cost of food in many cases. This could also freeze the administration in that area in a very damaging way and could actually put lives at risk.

This seems to be a new trend by the government. I have certainly seen it in the area of immigration. We are seeing it in more and more of the legislation that keeps coming through the House. More and more power is being vested in the hands of the ministers. I would say that is the antithesis of parliamentary democracy.

When so much power is vested in the hands of one minister, or two or three or four ministers, no matter which political party they belong to, I would say that is a real threat to parliamentary oversight and to parliamentary democracy. We get elected and sent to this hallowed hall to discuss, debate and then vote on issues. Under the current government, ministers have grown their powers to a degree that I would say has become very dangerous. That is one of the key areas in this piece of legislation that needs to be addressed.

We are opposing the bill because of the items I have mentioned, but also because the government failed in a fundamental rule. It failed to consult with our first nation communities and make them part of the solution. Without consultation it would be unfair to impose an unjust piece of legislation on our first nations people.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the member's comments and I appreciated her opening remarks when she talked about speaking to the bill. I reflect on the Kelowna accord where we had first nation leaders and different stakeholders come to the table. They came up with an agreement on an accord, and then the Paul Martin government was in a position to introduce it in the House of Commons.

When a member of Parliament introduces legislation or ideas to the floor of the House of Commons and he or she has done the background work and the consulting, would the hon. member not agree that it makes it a whole lot easier to support legislation when we know the background work was done in advance of a motion or a bill being presented? In other words, we know that others, particularly the stakeholders, were involved in what is being debated. Does that not provide more comfort for members who are speaking to it and want to support it?

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it will come as no surprise to anyone in the House that I believe in consultation. I believe that in order to find a solution, we need to engage the very people who are involved.

I would say that the first nations people have been disrespected in a great way. They were made to believe they would be consulted and they would be part of issues, especially on any legislation that would impact them. Here we have a piece of legislation that did not involve them in a productive way. We are always better off to consult than to go into a room and make up legislation, then use extreme cases to justify it and do the media spin. It just does not cut it.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to my colleague's presentation and would now like to ask her a question to which, unfortunately, I cannot foresee a positive answer. As a member of the committee, perhaps she will be able to enlighten me.

I would go back to what my colleague for Marc-Aurèle-Fortin said a short while ago about the fact that we are poised to impose on first nations a set of standards that are vastly more restrictive than those to which all other elected officials are held.

Are our first nations being singled out, or can it be argued that first nations are just the first of many groups on which the government will attempt to impose similar standards?

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his very thoughtful question. That is the one item I think is really distasteful in this.

The legislation would apply to the first nations people and would hold them to a completely different standard than many elected officials. It does not hold corporations to these kinds of standards, yet businesses owned by first nations people will be held to them. Think about the kind of impact that has on the economy within the first nations, their competitiveness and their ability to compete with others, when all of their information will be out there for the world to access by making a request. It is very unfortunate.

It also sends the message that they are one group that we have to build a very tight fence around, and if they do not behave, we will take their pennies away from them. It is just outrageous that we are debating such a measure in Parliament.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to oppose Bill C-27 because the bill is incredibly problematic. As with most bills introduced by the government pertaining to aboriginal peoples, it demonstrates a dangerous misunderstanding of the concerns and issues first nations face and a misunderstanding of how the federal government could best address them.

I oppose Bill C-27 both on principle and pragmatically because insofar as its implementation goes, the bill would not accomplish what it is intended to do. It does nothing to increase accountability of first nation governments to their people and gives the ability of the minister to withhold funding to the community, while holding first nation chiefs to an impossible standard, especially compared to that of other elected officials in other jurisdictions. The bill is actually redundant if what we are looking for is accountability from first nations.

First nations, excluding those who have their own self-governing regimes, are already beholden to funding arrangements with the Government of Canada in the form of fixed contribution agreements under which first nations must satisfy certain conditions to ensure continued payment of federal funds. Audits are already provided to Aboriginal Affairs and first nation band councils are already required to release their documents and statements to their people.

According to the Library of Parliament's legislative summary on the bill:

First Nations bands are [already] subject to certain financial disclosure requirements under the Indian Act and related statutes and regulations. In particular...a band’s financial statements [are] audited annually, and that the auditor’s report [is] posted “in conspicuous places on the Band Reserve for examination by members of the Band.”

Therefore, practically speaking, the bill is doing nothing but forcing a burdensome and costly hoop for every first nation to jump through annually. It is designed to make a statement that these sovereign nations, which is what they are or should be, must be transparent to us, the average Canadian, and not to their own people or to their federal funding partners.

At best, the bill is working to make it appear that native leaders are so egregiously corrupt that they require extra paternalistic oversight, far more than any of our own levels of government are subject to. At worst, the bill is a deflection from the real source of first nations financial unaccountability, which, as was repeatedly proven by the Auditor General, is the federal government.

I would like to quote Cindy Blackstock, who is the executive director at the First Nations Child and Family Caring Society. When she appeared last May at the status of women committee, she said:

That is not to say that when this happens people shouldn't be held to account, but it should be no reason to deny children basic access to services. Where there are allegations of mismanagement of funding, there are provisions within the agreements to stop that and address it—and of course, there are the criminal courts, and they should be used to the fullest extent.

Introducing a bill that takes extreme, near emergency, measures to ensure that every financial statement, audit and report is made available to every Canadian and is subject to the unilateral power of the minister is simply trying to perpetuate a myth that band council chiefs are all mismanaging large sums of funding on reserves. That is simply untrue.

I am proud to be the member of Parliament for the Kanesatake Mohawk, whose band council grand chief, Serge Simon, is fighting every day to provide the best possible care for his nation. That is in spite of its massive debt and underfunding. Kanesatake is, and has been, working to build itself a sustainable economic future against the tremendous odds that the federal government has stacked against it and perpetuated until this day. Chief Simon has gone so far as to prove his commitment to the greater welfare of his community by donating his own salary back to the communal coffers in order to help pay back Kanesatake's debts.

Why should Kanesatake and all 638 band councils be targeted as being corrupt? I am certain that if we were to compare band council politicians and Canadian politicians at all levels of government, we would find more cases of corruption and mismanagement in our politics than in theirs. Yet, if we were to give a minister the power to unilaterally withdraw all federal transfers from provinces, territories or municipalities, as the bill would allow the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs to do to first nations, the proposal would be met with outrage.

Would we start closing down schools and sewage systems because political corruption or mismanagement exists at the city level? Of course not, because we would not punish innocent citizens and their children no matter the crime of their elected representatives.

Again, to quote Cindy Blackstock, who contacted me specifically with her comments on this legislation:

The Auditor General has repeatedly pointed to shortcomings in the accountability of the Federal Government in its relationships and funding policies respecting First Nations peoples and governments. Instead of addressing the government's internal accountability shortcomings they are wasting more tax dollars doing something that the Auditor General specifically recommended against—implementing more reporting requirements for First Nations. I would like to see the funds being spent on this initiative re-profiled to do something that will make a difference and save tax payers millions in the long run—building safe schools for First Nations children, providing equitable child welfare funding and improving health care services.

While the government is proposing impossible standards for our underfunded first nations, it withholds information from our own Parliamentary Budget Officer on spending cuts. It seems to me that is the very definition of hypocrisy.

First nations' band councils should not be treated pre-emptively like criminals, especially not by the current government. In this case the Conservative government has no moral high ground, and my colleague from Burnaby—New Westminster demonstrated that quite well a few minutes ago. When it comes to financial accountability and transparency, the Conservative government has no credibility.

The larger problem with this bill, and pretty well with every bill on first nations the government puts before Parliament, is that it is imposed on first nations without consultation. This runs counter to the Conservatives' pronouncements at the Crown-first nations gathering that they would strive to work together with first nations. However, they continue to impose legislation without the consent of the first nations their legislation would affect. New Democrats would never pass any law regarding aboriginal people without consultation, which requires consent.

This is not simply a matter of principle but one of our obligations as a signatory of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Article 32 of the declaration requires free, prior and informed consent on any matter relating to indigenous peoples' lands or welfare. The fact that the vast majority of first nations were not consulted on Bill C-27, let alone gave consent, means that Canada is once again breaking faith with this important declaration of rights. Why would the Prime Minister ratify the UN declaration when he does not even intend to make a cursory attempt to uphold its standards?

To quote the Assembly of First Nations on this issue:

First Nation governments are arguably among the most transparent and accountable governments in all of Canada. The AFN has long advanced its Accountability for Results initiative and continues to work with First Nation organizations and leaders—and with the Auditor General of Canada, the Treasury Board Secretariat, and Indian and Northern Affairs Canada--on better approaches to both governance and accountability.

We all know what the problems are—they are not exorbitant salaries—they are decades of paternalism that have placed many First Nation leaders in a position where they are responsible for implementing decisions, but where the ultimate power to make decisions rests with the federal government....

Alongside my New Democrat colleagues, I believe that we must move away from the paternalism of the Indian Act and toward a paradigm where we have a healthy relationship with first nations as partners, where they are able to maintain their own sovereignty and jurisdiction over their lands and business. This legislation is a perfect example of exactly the opposite and demonstrates that Conservatives have no genuine desire to work with first nations to find collaborative and functional solutions to problems.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Cooperation]

Mr. Speaker, I note that my colleague was not here during the last Parliament so she did witness the private member's bill being brought forward by the member for Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, when considerable consultation took place with first nations about these very issues.

I find it quite ironic that the member would stand in the House and ask for transparency from one level of government but not from what is effectively another level of government.

What kind of transparency would the member look for if she were setting something up, because we do ask for transparency when government money or taxpayers' dollars are put forward to another level of government and when every province and every municipality now puts all their statements online? I can go to my municipalities and ask them to present to me their audited statements and they are responsible for providing them to me as a taxpayer. My question for the member is, what does transparency look like?

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would point out to my colleague from Newmarket that just because I was not elected prior to this parliament does not mean that I do not understand or know what happened in prior parliaments. It is a little bit silly to suggest that I did not realize that my colleague from Saskatoon had a private member's bill on this.

If I go into Kanesatake and ask whether there have been consultations and the response is no, then I believe that not enough consultation has taken place, because that is a community that should be consulted. If first nations people are saying they have not been consulted enough, then who are the Conservatives to decide that they have been?

As for transparency, we cannot take any lessons from the Conservatives. The member said that she could go online and check for her municipality's statements there. First nations can ask that of their band councils, and it is already happening. Someone living in a community can already access that information, as it is already required.

What more do we need to do? That is quite transparent already. We only need to be transparent to those to whom we are accountable, namely the people living within our jurisdictions.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, as this is my first chance to speak to Bill C-27 in the House, I will say that I find the demands being placed on first nations disturbing, particularly in terms of time and the costs of producing these additional papers. The words just used by our parliamentary colleague of patronizing and paternalistic apply here.

I wonder if we could turn the mirror on ourselves and ask why it is that at the Board of Internal Economy all of the other parliamentary parties in this place object to the expenses of members of Parliament being placed on the public record. I wonder if we could do that before we ask the same of first nations.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the real problem is that my colleagues on the other side are thinking that we need to make first nations accountable to all taxpayers. That is because the system we have set up right now is one that is paternalistic and racist. Essentially, it is our colonial structure toward first nations. Basically, what we have done is to make these first nations communities, which are nations with their own people, accountable to us through the structure of the Indian Act.

What we need to do is to sit down at the table and move forward as partners. That is something that the Conservatives will never do as long as they continue to see these communities as accountable to them and not as partners.

[José Nunez-Melo, NDP, Laval, QC]

Monsieur Speaker, I would like to start by saying that it is a privilege for me to address the Chair and all the members of the House.

Truth be told, my one true regret, or should I say criticism of this bill, is that it is pointless and senseless. Bill C-27, An Act to enhance the financial accountability and transparency of First Nations is an aberration across the board.

Let me begin by pointing out that my honourable colleagues have invested a considerable amount of time, either here in this House or in committee, debating this bill. Instead we could have been diligent and spent more time debating other more important bills, especially those for which my honourable Conservative colleagues have arbitrarily invoked time allocation.

Our caucus opposes the bill at report stage. Bill C-27 requires the annual disclosure of consolidated financial statements, a separate schedule, an auditor’s written report respecting the consolidated financial statements and an auditor’s report respecting the schedule of remuneration.

This is a great deal to ask for and it is extremely constraining, particularly for small governments such as first nation governments.

We the members of the New Democratic Party caucus are opposed to this bill because first nations would be bound by all of its provisions, irrespective of the fact that they were not consulted. I listened to what my colleague opposite had to say a short while ago. She stated that previous Parliaments held consultations. I believe that is not entirely accurate and that these consultations were conducted in a rather cavalier manner.

As far as we are concerned, the emphasis should instead be on respect between first nations and the government in power.

We do not support this bill because we feel it does nothing to improve the accountability process either. It requires the drafting of a number of reports which are probably irrelevant. Furthermore, confidential information will be widely disseminated electronically. Information will find its way online and onto websites and that is not the intent here.

The NDP does not support this bill. As I just said, we feel it does nothing to improve the situation. It also imposes standards that are stricter than those to which elected officials in many jurisdictions are held. It gives the minister the power to withhold payment of any moneys due to a first nation or to rescind any agreement providing for the payment of a grant or contribution to a first nation should it breach its duty.

This is no laughing matter, although I do find all of these constraints that have no business existing in the first place quite laughable.

The federal government has failed miserably over the last decade to address the worsening living conditions of first nation members.

This bill shows that the government wants first nations to do what it should in principle have demanded of foreign governments in its famous free trade agreements. The government does not impose on any foreign nation restrictions as convoluted and serious as the ones it wants to impose on small first nation communities in Canada which are deserving of its respect. This is a very serious situation indeed.

In our view, the kinds of changes that are being required of first nations, such as having to prepare audited financial reports, should not be consigned to legislation. They could be part of the requirements already set out in funding agreements that the department has had each first nation sign. There is already a bill stipulating that first nations with self-government agreements should not be subject to additional texts and legislation. It reminds me of comments made by my colleague from Burnaby—New Westminster to the effect that the Conservatives are attacking groups that oppose their policies or their actions, targeting all small first nation governments.

Our honourable colleague from Newton—North Delta also explained very quickly what happens when groups disagree with the funding arrangements this government is attempting to impose on first nations.

As I also recall, our honourable colleague from Rivière-des-Mille-Îles talked about a double standard at play. That matter was also addressed in a question raised by our honourable colleague from Trois-Rivières. There is clear evidence here of a direct attack on any group that opposes the policies put forward by the Conservatives.

I started off by saying that it was a privilege for me to speak to this House on this bill. However, on reading the notes carefully and listening to the comments of my colleagues, I should have begun by saying that I regretted having to make any reference to this bill.

In closing, I would simply reiterate that the NDP caucus is opposed to this bill because it is arbitrary and pointless. Perhaps more time should be devoted to debating more important bills that would benefit the general public and first nations in particular.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I want to make a couple of comments. First, it is very disappointing to hear the member speak about this legislation or characterize himself as being disappointed to have to speak to a piece of legislation for which many first nation community members are actually calling. It is because of complaints by first nation community members that this legislation was introduced. While the member may be disappointed, I feel very privileged to be able to bring legislation like this forward to address an issue that first nations have brought forward to our government.

We have also heard members talk about the reporting burdens of first nations, and I have already spoken to this in my remarks, but I want to reassure members that there is nothing in this legislation that would require additional paperwork for first nation governments. They already produce consolidated financial statements each year, which are audited by independent, accredited, professional auditors. It is a requirement of their funding agreements with Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada. Members need to stop perpetuating the notion that we are requiring more reporting, when it is actually already being done by first nations.

[José Nunez-Melo, NDP, Laval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague made some comments, but did not ask a question.

I am sorry that she is disappointed. On the other hand, I want to stress that the reporting requirements for first nations, and particularly for groups that are outside the scope of the bill, might be an excessive burden.