Bill C-27 (Historical)

First Nations Financial Transparency Act

An Act to enhance the financial accountability and transparency of First Nations

This enactment enhances the financial accountability and transparency of First Nations.

Motions in Amendment

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague from Sherbrooke for that question.

The communities do have a lot of reporting requirements. Compared to what is asked of municipalities of 800 inhabitants like those in my riding, the fact that aboriginal communities are being asked to prepare all these reports is incredible, when they live in poverty and difficult conditions in many instances. We are asking them to deal with more red tape. There are ways to ensure the financial transparency of first nations communities without asking them to prepare more annual reports.

If federal government members travelled to the communities to see things for themselves, they would understand. When you take the time to travel, to go to those communities and to see the money that has been invested there and the repairs that have been made, you can see whether a community is properly managing its money.

The government might not need as many reports if it took the trouble to go and meet with them and talk to them.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member asked how first nations without a website would be able to publish the requirements that are asked for in the bill. The legislation calls for public disclosure, consolidated financial statements and schedules of remuneration. Most of the data that is asked for, with very little additional data, is already supplied by people. It is not an onerous task. They are not required to pick up houses and move them or anything. It is entry off a keyboard. It is pretty straightforward.

It is important to note that posting documents on a website is insufficient to discharge a first nation's duty, but the first nation may charge a fee for providing copies if another first nation enters the other first nation's information. The fees may not exceed the cost of transmission. What was mentioned by the hon. member was a lot of little things that amount to very little and would in no way affect information transmission to members of the band. That is what the act is all about, to increase the information for band members.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as I said in my speech, chiefs and band councils already submit financial information to the members of their communities. The members of the communities thus already have access to that information; that is already being done.

In my riding, for example, band chiefs are currently negotiating with mining giants that want to open mines on traditional lands. If the government decides that all the financial figures related to the contracts signed with mining companies have to be published on the Internet, then every time these people negotiate and try to get good contracts for their members, someone will point out that it says on the Internet that another first nation accepted such and such an amount. Companies will therefore tell bands to accept their offers and to keep quiet because what they are offering them is good. However, it does not work that way.

In no communities other than first nations communities would people be compelled to reveal what they have negotiated with big corporations. People who live in communities of 800, who have no diplomas or basic university degrees, are being asked to negotiate with big corporations and to publish the results of their negotiations on the Internet. That is utterly unacceptable, and no other community in Canada would be asked to do that.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure that I rise today to speak to Bill C-27. One of the things that I like about the bill is that it demonstrates very clearly the difference between two governments: a Conservative government and a Liberal government. In the Liberal government we saw a different approach to dealing with the important issues facing our aboriginal and, in particular, first nation communities. In the Conservative government we see an approach that the government knows best and that there is no need to do any sort of genuine consultation.

When I posed the question to the Conservative member on what sort of consultation was done, the member made reference to a previous bill and said that at committee we heard hours of debate. I believe he made reference to the fact that there were chiefs who made presentations at committee. I suspect that many members of the Conservative caucus have received a great deal of feedback on Bill C-27 or the bill that Bill C-27 is replacing because the Prime Minister prorogued Parliament a couple of years ago.

In the answer the government member continuously talked about post-introduction of the bill. Therein lies the difference between a Liberal government and a Conservative government. The Liberal government recognized the importance of working with first nations before we even introduced the legislation. Therein lies the difference.

If we look for leadership within the first nations prior to introducing the legislation or even prior to the drafting of the legislation, it is there. It needs to be emphasized that there is very strong leadership in our first nation communities. If the government chose to capitalize on that leadership, we would have better legislation than we have today. Unfortunately, we have the legislation, but it enables individuals like myself to demonstrate the difference between two ways of governing. One way has demonstrated far more success, that being for example the Paul Martin government in the creation of the Kelowna accord, which I will get to in a few moments.

Transparency and proactive disclosure are something that Canadians love and most politicians talk a great deal about. It is nothing new. It is something that is advocated but it is not only for first nations. I was a provincial MLA for many years and I tried to get to the bottom of how much money the NDP provincial government was paying the chair of the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority. At last count, I tallied over $500,000 for one individual working within the civil service. The numbers we were hearing were well in excess of that. I remember trying to find out how much the provincial government was paying in pensions for that position. If we want to talk about challenges, there are huge challenges in terms of trying to draw out how much money is being allocated for one civil service position. Trust me, I could talk a great deal. The issue is accountability, not just for first nations—

[The Acting Speaker, Barry Devolin]

Order, please. The hon. member for Palliser is rising on a point of order.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, I do not know if there is a question in this or not. I think we are into minute four with an impromptu speech—

[The Acting Speaker, Barry Devolin]

Order, please. The hon. member for Winnipeg North is up on debate rather than questions and comments. He is in fact halfway through his 10-minute speech.

The hon. member for Winnipeg North.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I trust that the time for the point of order will not be taken out of my time.

The truth can sometimes make people feel a little uncomfortable but that is the reality. It is not just about the need for more accountability and transparency within our first nations, the provincial governments or, moving on, the national government. We just need to look at this huge budget bill that we are talking about.

There are huge needs out there that need to be met around the whole issue of accountability and more transparency. We have seen that there is a need for more accountability and transparency with first nations but that is nothing new, just like it is not new for other levels of government.

This is where I will mention the Kelowna accord. Members will be familiar with the Kelowna accord. It is something agreed to under former prime minister Paul Martin, through months of discussion and dialogue with representatives and stakeholders from coast to coast to coast, which in good part was led by first nations themselves. Ultimately, a report which was agreed upon. A consensus that was achieved. Paul Martin, as the prime minister, took great effort in ensuring that our first nations communities led the dialogue in many different ways. As a result, we achieved the Kelowna accord.

People should be aware that within the Kelowna accord was an accountability framework. If we look at that accountability framework, it included a first nations auditor general. What sort of an impact would that have had?

I would argue that many of the concerns that people who live on reserves or off reserves have in regard to accountability, including the leadership of our first nations, would have been addressed through that first nations auditor general. This had support and it was encouraged through our first nations.

What did the government do when it had the opportunity to implement, for the first time, a first nations auditor general. It chose to tear up the agreement. It completely discarded what it was that the previous government had put in place, which would have taken into consideration the sensitive issues surrounding financial transparency and accountability.

Let us look at the whole issue of reports. The government seems to want to place the burden for reporting on first nations. On the surface one would say that there is an obligation for some sense of accountability and that part of that accountability means providing reports. However, what we also need to recognize is that the Canadian Auditor General has seen that the federal government has already put the burden on first nations in the number of reports it continues to demand that the first nations surrender.

If the government were genuine in wanting to achieve what it hopes to achieve with Bill C-27, it should have listened to what the Auditor General of Canada said in terms of easing the burden of some of the reports that are being requested. It should have taken that report, sat down with the leadership of our first nations people and come up with legislation that would have factored in what the Auditor General said. If it had listened to what our first nations leadership was saying, it could have brought forward better legislation for which the government would have received not only the support of all parties in this chamber, but would have had a much better base of support from the many different stakeholders.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to my hon. colleague, but for the folks back home to know the difference between fiction and reality, we should look at the Liberal record. The member talks about how the Liberal government was one that listened to and spoke with first nations. I worked with the first nations in Quebec under a Liberal government and I was in this House under the Paul Martin government. The Liberals had their road map for progress, their round table for change and their blueprint for dialogue but things got worse every single year in the communities with which I worked.

I worked in Barriere Lake when an agreement was signed with the federal government in 1997, the memorandum of mutual intent. The government broke that agreement as soon as it signed it. It deposed the band council and used the same kind of brutal tactics that the present Conservative government does.

I know my hon. colleague is new in this House but I would remind him that the Kashechewan crisis of 2005 was as disastrous as the Attawapiskat crisis. At the time, we had the health minister from the Liberal government say, “We don't have federal water standards; we can't be held accountable”. He needs to get his facts correct.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that the member would take such an attitude. If he wants to talk about the New Democrats, all he needs to do is look at the province of Manitoba where aboriginal communities are suing the provincial NDP government because of its irresponsible approach to flooding issues. The people are not even allowed to live in their own communities because of provincial NDP neglect. Do not try to take the high road as if the New Democrats are so gracious and they have the moral—

[The Acting Speaker, Barry Devolin]

Order, please. I would remind all hon. members to direct their comments to the Chair rather than to their colleagues. I appreciate this is an emotional—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Four majority governments in Manitoba.

[The Acting Speaker, Barry Devolin]

Order, please. Questions and comments, the hon. parliamentary secretary.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, earlier, one of the member's colleagues mentioned the Kelowna accord. We know a couple of things about that document. First, it was an 11th hour document when the Liberals were effectively on their way out the door because Canadians had rejected their version of accountability and transparency.

I am seeing some furrowed eyebrows down there and I am sure that is more out of frustration than anything.

Second, the Kelowna accord was not actually in a budget so it remains to be seen as to whether there was a genuine attempt here to deliver on some of the things.

Third, our government has gone far beyond the Kelowna accord, not just in terms of resources but in terms of the kinds of legislative tools that would bring a modern first nations economy up to speed with many regions of this country.

This bill is important because accountability and transparency are central tenets of self-governance. It is a relationship between the chief and council and its citizens. It would get rid of the issue of having to go to the minister for this kind of public information.

Given the LIberals' poor track record on this, does the member not think that kind of accountability and transparency is what is important here, not the kind the Liberals delivered in days gone by?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I happen to have in my hands the actual Kelowna accord, just in case the member never received it.