Bill C-7 (Historical)

Senate Reform Act

An Act respecting the selection of senators and amending the Constitution Act, 1867 in respect of Senate term limits

Part 1 of this enactment establishes a framework for electing nominees for Senate appointments from the provinces and territories. The following principles apply to the selection process:
(a) the Prime Minister, in recommending Senate nominees to the Governor General for a province or territory, would be required to consider names from a list of nominees submitted by the provincial or territorial government; and
(b) the list of nominees would be determined by an election held in accordance with provincial or territorial laws enacted to implement the framework.
Part 2 alters the tenure of senators who are summoned after October 14, 2008.

Senate Reform Act

[Hélène LeBlanc, NDP, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for the excellent presentation he just made; it explains his position quite well.

Certainly, the Senate has evolved in recent years, especially in the light of the increase in partisanship. When it was established, the role of the Senate was to provide sober advice to members of Parliament, who tended to be rather partisan.

How does the hon. member think an institution could offer that advice to members of Parliament while avoiding partisanship? I am thinking of civil society or more participatory democracy. I would like to explore those ideas a little to see how we could achieve something along those lines.

[Jean-François Fortin, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for her very pertinent question.

We have indeed seen the reasons for which the upper house was created, especially in coming to the defence of minorities and of certain regions of Canada. Over time, things have changed and the role of the Senate has become much more closely linked to partisanship. That was because the government largely saw it as a way to reward its friends.

Of course, besides the formal machinery of democracy, we have civil society and we have groups that are very capable of providing representation on issues that affect daily life. In my opinion, the government should listen to those groups to a greater extent and, specifically, should establish formal and informal mechanisms that would allow it to connect with the reality of Canadians and Quebeckers.

At this point, abolishing the Senate seems to us to be the best solution, and we urge the government to be attentive to the interests of Canadians and Quebeckers.

[Guy Caron, NDP, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I feel that the government's positions are almost clear. They have no real idea what to do with the Senate, as the various approaches and bills over the years demonstrate. Our friends in the Liberal Party, I feel, are equally clear in their view that the Senate is an essential and important institution, and they have their own reasons for feeling that way. But the position of the hon. member and that of the NDP are somewhat similar in that we favour the abolition of the Senate. In that context, knowing his background in political science and that he is an expert in the field, I would like to hear his comments on the fact that Quebec abolished its own provincial senate in the late 1960s and on the impact it had on the way in which Quebec was governed and administered.

[Jean-François Fortin, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I represent a magnificent riding that I invite you to come visit. In time, you will become more familiar with the name of my riding.

I want to thank the hon. member for Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques for his question. Parliaments around the world, in Europe, the United States or in Canada, have had democratic practices that have changed how the public is represented over time. Clearly, a senate that may have been necessary at a certain time for various reasons, like a photograph that reflects the true reality of a certain moment, has to be able to change and evolve in the minds of the people. My party and I feel that the Senate no longer has a place today. We see that the NDP has a similar position on this. The role that the Senate used to play is no longer called for today. We are therefore proposing the abolition of the Senate. Quebeckers, of course, chose to abolish their senate for reasons I cannot get into right now for lack of time.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak on such an important bill before the House. There can be nothing more important to us as Canadians than our democratic institutions. I believe that a Senate that is appointed or pseudo-elected, which is what the bill would have us do, is actually anti-democratic. We have a democratic House of Commons. We are elected by our constituents. We come to this House, and we actually try to debate the issues and bring the concerns of our constituents into this House. However, that has been very difficult during the last few months because, as we know, time allocation has been moved and our voices have been silenced many times.

However, we still believe and would encourage our colleagues across the way to allow the democratic process to play out. In this democratic process, we do not need to have a Senate. The Senate is appointed. Senators do not really represent any constituents. They come from regions. They do not have any kind of feeling of reporting back to anybody.

As we know, this is not the first time that my Conservative colleagues have tried to make changes to the Senate, but each time the changes they propose do not go far enough.

On the other hand, the NDP is constant. Since the 1930s, we have been constant in saying that it is time for the Senate to go. Our party keeps reaffirming that position over and over again, not because we are just looking for something to be opposed to, by the way, but because when we talk with our constituents, to Canadians across this country, they actually see very little value, if any, to the Senate.

Both sides of the House have to acknowledge that we are going through hard economic times, unemployment is rising, poverty levels are rising, our child poverty has increased, actually, the gap between the rich and the poor in Canada has increased, our health care system is under stress, our students in post-secondary education are burdened with a growing debt load, and many of them do not even have access to post-secondary education because they do not have the financial wherewithal to do so. I would argue that as we go through these hard economic times, this is the time that we should really all be standing to say it is time to abolish an archaic institution called the Senate.

When we look at our history, we have a group of people who are appointed by the Prime Minister. Under the new proposals, as we all know, the provinces may have elections at their own expense, and how many of them have money these days? Even when they elect and recommend somebody, the appointment is still at the discretion of the Prime Minister. What we have seen since May 2 have been appointments of either key workers, supporters, or failed candidates, to the Senate. Obviously, patronage is truly alive on the Hill.

When we look at all that, Canadians out there are asking, what is the role of the Senate? In my riding of Newton—North Delta most of them would rather take the millions of dollars we spend on the Senate and have it spent on education. They would like to have it spent on transit infrastructure. They would like to have it spent on health care. They would like to have it spent on raising seniors out of poverty. Shame on us. They would really like to see that kind of debate.

If the government feels it has to move to make some changes, let us take it to the public. Let us take it to Canadians right across the country, and let us engage in a healthy debate. I know that healthy debate is hard for my colleagues across the aisle, but let us take this out into our communities, engage in a healthy debate, and let our constituents tell us if they are for, against, or do not care. I will bet that they will care because they care how their tax dollars are spent and they would like to have them utilized to do some public good.

I have yet to be convinced of the public good that is achieved through a Senate. I was looking at it historically. As members know, I am new to the House. I looked at the number of times that an elected House of Commons has passed legislation and it was blocked by appointed, partisan senators that owe their loyalty to no one except the people who appoint them.

It is a very telling comment when a senator can write a letter to other senators stating:

Those of us who came to the red chamber were there to get a majority vote for reform. Those in the Senate before [the Prime Minister came to power] need to realize that, had he not made appointments, the Conservatives appointed by Mulroney would now be a very small group struggling to do anything! Every senator in this caucus needs to decide where their loyalty should be and must be. The answer is simple:--

As a taxpayer this would actually give me sleepless nights. It continues:

--our loyalty is to the man who brought us here, the man who has wanted Senate reform since he entered politics, the Rt. Hon. [Prime Minister].

I would encourage every parliamentarian, my colleagues across the aisle as well, to really pay attention to that. If after reading that, we believe there is a role for the Senate, then we need to give our heads a shake. There is a need for a referendum because we need to justify that to every Canadian out there.

Every time I read this letter, I must admit I get goosebumps because here we are in a democratic country called Canada, with a parliamentary democracy, where a senator can write a letter to his whole caucus saying that their only loyalty is to the man who brought them to the Senate. That tells us a lot about the Senate, about who appoints the senators, where the power lies, and how the senators, once appointed, do not even see themselves as having any kind of commitment to Canadians. They see their commitment to the man who appointed them, who gave them their jobs.

My commitment is to the constituents who voted, whether they voted for me or whether they voted for another candidate. Once I became an MP, I am an MP for every constituent in my riding. That is my role.

It is because the Senate is archaic and out of touch, and does not connect with the people across the country, that it needs to be dissolved. Once it is dissolved, let us take those resources and do some real public good that the citizens of Canada can feel proud that their tax dollars are being spent to lift people out of poverty, to help seniors, to help our veterans, to establish a universal child care program, and to help our struggling students get an education, so that they can contribute to our economy and grow our economy.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments. However, we have another bill before us with regard to increasing the number of members of Parliament. It would increase the number from 308 to 338.

The member made reference to canvassing what Canadians want and to the issue of saving money. I am sure she would agree that a vast majority of Canadians, I would suggest 90% or more, do not believe we need more members of Parliament and do not believe we need an additional 30 MPs. We can imagine the money that could be saved.

Does the member believe that the same principles in applying those issues with the current bill should also apply to the bill that would increase the number of politicians? It is a bill her party is supporting, along with the Conservatives.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for a very insightful question.

Members of Parliament come to sit in this House and, when they are allowed to, debate issues that are important to Canadians. When they go back to their ridings, they provide a direct service. I know my colleague will agree that we are often busier when we are back in our own ridings than sometimes we are when we are here. At least we feel we play a useful role when we are back in our ridings; when we are there, we do provide a direct service.

There is a difference between parliamentarians who are elected and senators who receive a patronage appointment or are appointed by the Prime Minister.

It is not just the NDP or myself who are saying that we should get rid of the Senate. Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty, a Liberal, has also said that it is time for the abolition of the Senate. B.C. Premier Christy Clark, who calls herself a Liberal, although I would say she is a Conservative, has said the Senate no longer plays a useful role in Confederation. Manitoba maintains its position of Senate abolition. Quebec has called this legislation unconstitutional.

When we really look at this issue, right across the country there is a consensus already building that we should get rid of the Senate.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for her very passionate speech. She said that by abolishing the Senate, we could save astronomical amounts of money. In my riding, we are working with the government to see how we could come up with a more efficient rail transportation system in order to reduce traffic on the Island of Montreal, but we are being told there is not enough money to invest in such infrastructure.

I would like the hon. member to talk about actual projects in her riding that the government should be putting money into instead of investing in the Senate.

[Jinny Sims, NDP, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we could come up with a huge number of projects. With the amount of money we spend on the Senate, we could address a number of issues. We could lift our seniors out of poverty. We could have infrastructure projects that would improve our commitment to the environment--that is, if we still have a commitment from the government side to the environment. Really, when we think about it, there are many projects.

There will be some who would argue that if we do not have the Senate, our parliamentary democracy will come to a halt. I would reply that in the provinces that got rid of their senates, the sky did not fall. Everything carried on, and they actually got more work done. Bills were able to go through quickly. Legislation was able to be enacted quickly. Not only was the timing important, but they actually had money freed up.

A survey done in July 2011 found that 71% of Canadians are in favour of holding a referendum to decide the future of the Senate. I know my colleagues across the way are very committed to listening to Canadians across the country. They keep saying how they were elected to respond to the needs of Canadians; here we have 71% of Canadians saying it is time for a referendum.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak about government Bill C-7 on the Senate. For several years, the government has been saying that it wants an elected Senate. If anyone is wondering whether I believe in the Senate, no, I absolutely do not, and I will explain why.

I may have once believed in the Senate but, if I did, I lost that faith. There was a time when I thought that there should be a place for the Senate and a time when I was uncertain, but that is no longer the case. I absolutely do not believe in a Senate appointed by the Prime Minister. For me, that is not democracy. In the past, in other countries, senators were appointed by their prime ministers, but those countries changed their way of doing things to take modern democracy into account. They chose to have elected senators with certain powers. For example, there are countries where the Senate cannot vote on bills related to government spending but, instead, it takes care of bills related to what is happening in communities.

I am looking at our Senate when I refer to an unelected Senate. We are supposed to live in a democratic country. There are various political parties—the NDP, the Conservative Party, the Liberal Party, the Bloc Québécois, the Canadian Alliance and all the others. They are all legitimate. We have the right to have our parties. Someone at Elections Canada makes sure that all the rules are followed, that everyone has a place and that any eligible person can run for a seat in Parliament. Those running for office campaign for 35 days. There is a huge election campaign. We have to sell ourselves to the public. Who should the people choose to represent them in Ottawa? A democratic, secret vote is held to choose someone—a man or a woman—to represent us in Ottawa, someone who can discuss and vote on bills that will become the laws of our country. These representatives are chosen by the people. That is democracy. It is the people who decide who will represent them, or who their members of Parliament will be. In the end, does it matter that the Prime Minister says that he wants to elect senators—people who are retiring?

Everyone knows that when someone is appointed to the Senate by the Prime Minister, they are there until the age of 75. The Prime Minister has the power to appoint people to the Senate, but not to remove them, however. A senator may do whatever he or she likes after being appointed. A senator must have done something really inappropriate to be relieved of his or her duties. No one wants to leave; they do not do anything until the age of 75, and there is no problem. That said, I do not want to tar all of the senators with the same brush.

In 2005, when Canadians and Quebeckers decided to elect a minority government, the opposition had the majority in the House of Commons. As has always been the case, if a budget is brought down by a minority government in the House of Commons and if the opposition, which is in the majority, votes against that budget, this means that the government does not have the confidence of the House and, consequently, that government falls and an election is held.

If a budget is brought down by a minority government in the House of Commons and the majority opposition votes against the government's budget, this means that the government does not have the confidence of the House. The government falls and there is an election. That is the rule. That is what protects the elected government, which has the power to trigger an election. That is where confidence is expressed. It is a vote of confidence. Normally, the government has to choose.

That is not, however, what is happening. The House is passing bills and the unelected Senate is voting them down in the other place. The Senate is voting against bills passed by the members elected by the population. I will give you an example.

The NDP introduced Bill C-311 concerning our responsibility with regard to climate change, the Act to ensure Canada assumes its responsibilities in preventing dangerous climate change. Whether we like it or not, the House expressed its opinion in a vote. The elected members voted. I think that all members, be they with the NDP, the Liberal Party, the Bloc or the Conservative Party, should feel offended, even though this is an NDP bill, that the unelected Senate voted to defeat this bill.

Our time here in the House is limited. At some point, there will be other people here. At some point, the Conservatives will no longer be in power and will be in the opposition. I wonder how the Conservatives would feel about the Senate voting against House bills, in a minority government situation, for example, during the time when they had a minority government.

The current Prime Minister himself has said previously that the Senate's job was not to vote against House bills. The House is elected. Members of Parliament are elected by the public.

A few years ago, I sent out a bulk mailing in my riding and asked constituents to respond. It was almost a referendum. I asked people whether they agreed with the Senate, whether senators should be elected, whether the Senate should be abolished or whether it should remain as is. No one wanted the Senate to remain as is. Among those who responded, 85% indicated that they were in favour of abolishing the Senate. It would be interesting to have a referendum on this in Canada. It is great to say that this is part of the Constitution, to hide behind that and to say that, because of the Constitution, we can never change the Senate. The Constitution makes a great place to hide.

However, what would happen if there were a national referendum and the public said it was in favour of abolishing the Senate? If that happened, all of the provinces would have to agree in order to amend the Constitution. Hopefully the provincial premiers and legislatures would honour the decision of Canadians and Quebeckers. We would hope they would recognize that, if the public no longer wants a Senate, it is time to get rid of it once and for all. Why are we spending money on this institution?

The bill that I introduced required Supreme Court justices to be bilingual. The bill was passed in this House. The majority of parliamentarians voted in favour of the bill. The Conservatives consider themselves lucky that the Senate does exist because, had it not, the bill would have been passed and they would now be required to appoint bilingual justices to the Supreme Court. That is democracy. Elected representatives should decide. We are the elected representatives—whether Conservative, NDP, Liberal or Bloc. The voters elected us to the House. We were not appointed by the Prime Minister. Conservatives should mull that over. They will not be in power for the next 100 years. At some point, the Conservatives will no longer be in power.

It is not right. It was not right when the Conservatives were in opposition. The current Prime Minister was against the Senate voting down bills passed by the House of Commons. What has changed since he moved from opposition to power? What has caused such a change in him?

The Senate claims that it exists to protect minorities and the regions, but it never has done that.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the member for Acadie—Bathurst.

We are aware that a number of countries have abolished the Senate, for example Finland, Germany and Japan. And those are not the countries lowest on the list. A number of provinces have abolished the senate as well. At present, 71% of the population would support holding a Canada-wide referendum so they could voice their opinion. This morning, a member said it would be difficult to open our Constitution. Our Constitution was created to be opened when it is necessary. Processes have been provided for opening it and for agreeing. Some of them mean that referendums can be held.

I would like to hear the member's opinion on that.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Madam Speaker, if we hold a Canada-wide referendum on the Senate, with Quebec, Canadians can decide whether they no longer want the Senate. The Constitution is not written in stone. Everything can be changed and that is why we have a Parliament.

When New Brunswick enacted legislation to make the province bilingual, all the provinces agreed. There was no talk of the Constitution and it was not opened up for everything. It was opened only on that subject, and bill 88 was incorporated into the Constitution. We are protected by the Constitution. It was done democratically; the Constitution was opened, bill 88 was added to it, and that was the end.

So if there is a referendum on the Senate, the Constitution can be opened just on that subject. We can listen to the people and respond to their desire to get rid of that institution. The provinces have got rid of it, as our colleague mentioned just now, and it was not the end of the world. No one can run and hide anymore.

Now, members rise in the House to vote on a bill, the public looks at them, and if the members do not do a good job, in a democratic way, they can be voted out in the next election. We do not need a Senate to reject bills passed by a majority of Parliament, because we are elected and senators are not. They are people appointed by the Prime Minister. Most of the time, they are friends of the Prime Minister or of a political party. That is not democracy.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Madam Speaker, the member for Acadie—Bathurst is a veteran of this place, so I am sure he realizes the hard work that takes place in the Senate. Great reports come out of its committees. Great dedication is shown by so many senators. It is the place of sober second thought when it comes to legislation from here. Often some errors have been made in drafting bills, especially private members' bills, but the senators have been able to pick up on those errors as a result of their experience and expertise in looking at the law. Despite the member's comments that the current Senate is a patronage-laden place, it still does some great work.

We also have to remember that a lot of the legislation we deal with in the House actually starts over in the Senate and comes this way. Senators bring forward some great ideas on their own private members' bills. We need to look at Parliament as a whole.

We are trying to bring democracy and reform to the senate by allowing people to elect senators. If the member is so opposed to patronage and the existing Senate the way it stands, why does he want to bring proportional representation into the House where members will be appointed through patronage off party lists?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Madam Speaker, I have been to many countries that have proportional representation. The people are appointed through a convention, not by a leader of a party. Their appointment is not done through one person.

I am not degrading people in the other place. I am not saying that the senators do not do any work. I am asking if we need the Senate.

The member says that senate is the place of sober second thought, but that is why we have committees. If the government were to stop putting time allocation on debate in the House of Commons and let us do our jobs, if it did not stop debate in committees and let us do our jobs, then maybe we would not need that other place to do the second thought. We could do our own sober second thought. Right now the government is stopping us from doing our jobs, yet it is telling us that we need the Senate to repair things. We could do the repair work right here. Leave us to do our work.

The Conservative government has stopped debate in the House 11 times. We are allowed to debate a bill for two hours and that is it. That is not democracy; that is anti-democracy. The member should think about that too.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Madam Speaker, that is a tough act to follow, as always.

I would like to congratulate my colleague from Acadie—Bathurst as well as my colleague from Newton—North Delta. Both of them are very passionate, and they are models in both their bearing and their ethics. I really admire their work.

On this day, December 8, I only have one thought in mind: “Give peace a chance”. Why is it so important to give peace a chance? It is important because peace is synonymous with discussions, with communication among peoples, among people and among parties, whether they agree or not. Dialogue should always be at the forefront of a democracy. It is extremely important.

The message of my idol, John Lennon, who was assassinated on December 8, was about communication and the way in which we can together discuss topics that are extremely important to society and to the population in general. Today, we are debating a bill that affects more people than we realize and may cause a chill among some provincial elected members. First and foremost, we have to respect democracy, which is a sincere and cordial dialogue. Exchanges between the members of the opposition and the members of the government should be courteous.

It appears to me that Bill C-7, An Act respecting the selection of senators and amending the Constitution Act, 1867 in respect of Senate term limits, reflects a somewhat cavalier attitude and shows indifference to the real issues that are of concern to the population.

The role of this institution is no longer required and this has been the case for decades, as was very well explained by my colleague, the member for Acadie—Bathurst. Historically, the role of that institution has always been that of a watchdog. Personally, I think this role has evolved into a ghost's role, and I am being polite in saying that. One wonders what could have led the Conservatives to table a bill on this topic for the third time. Basically, this legislative effort contains absolutely nothing that would truly legitimize the existence and relevance of the Senate chamber, especially given the fact that at no time since the beginning of this 41st Parliament have the Prime Minister and his merry band given us any opportunity for real debate in a sound democracy. Never have they done so. And believe me, this government does not seem anywhere near doing that in the course of this exercise.

In the first paragraph of the preamble to Bill C-7, we can see the ambiguity and paradox of the Conservatives' position, especially when they claim that the Senate must continue to evolve in keeping with the principles of modern democracy and the expectations of Canadians. I would be curious to know the opinion of Canadians on that topic.

In the second paragraph of that preamble, we read:

Whereas the Government of Canada has undertaken to explore means to enable the Senate better to reflect the democratic values of Canadians and respond to the needs of Canada's regions;

As for the regions, we will get to that in due course.

How can that be called democratic if the provinces' choice is not even respected by the Prime Minister?

Part 1, clause 3, on senatorial selection, states that “the Prime Minister...must consider”. There is no obligation. The Prime Minister does not even respect the choice of senators elected democratically by the provinces. Welcome to the Conservatives’ world where even evolution runs backwards. The upshot is that we will again and again be faced with partisan appointments of the kind the Liberals had us accustomed to; now it is the Conservatives' turn.

Why reform the Senate if the provinces’ decisions are not going to be taken into account and if the Canadian government is under no obligation whatsoever?

Moreover, there is a schedule in Bill C-7 that contains a whole slew of clauses that impose a legislative framework for the selection of senators. Did I not just say that the Prime Minister has no obligation whatsoever to respect the selection process? Once again, he shows no interest in listening to voters, 61% of whom, I should point out, voted against the government.

It makes no sense and it is a waste of public money: over $100 million a year is spent on the Senate.

Once again, they have found a way to spend a fortune on an exercise in which all Canadians will have participated without their decision being respected.

In the end, Canadians will not have participated. Basically, whether it is 100% of Canadians who speak out or vote, or the 61% who voted against this government on May 2, the Conservatives do not give a damn.

The NDP's position is certainly clearer and more precise than the government's. From the early days of this 41st Parliament, the Conservatives have been very vague regarding the number of subjects up for discussion, which has left us with a great deal of doubt and uncertainty.

For many year, the NDP has called for the complete abolition of this outdated institution, which in no way serves the interests of a modern country and instead caters to the cronies of whichever party is in power. I challenge the government to hold a Canada-wide consultation on the future of the Senate or even a vote on its abolition. I would respect the outcome of such exercises because I am a democrat and I care about Canadians' opinions and what they have to say regarding the issues affecting their country, my country: Canada.

Democracy is at the very core of the British parliamentary system and yet the Conservatives show day in and day out just how much a doctrine based on the private and individual interests of a party’s leaders has a negative impact on ethics and the civic-mindedness of a people.

The premiers of Ontario and Nova Scotia have publicly expressed their support for abolishing the Senate. The premier of British Columbia said that the Senate no longer has its place in our Confederation. Manitoba remains in favour of abolishing the Senate. As for Quebec, it has said repeatedly that this bill is unconstitutional. Does the government really want to alienate these provinces? Is this a voluntary move by the Conservatives, or else a strategy aimed at dividing the country to better control it? To ask these questions is to answer them, as someone famous once said. To divide Canadians on an issue on which we should seek a consensus is really perverse. What will the next step be? Withdrawing from the Kyoto protocol, so as not to respect our targets? I almost forgot that it is already done, if I am not mistaken.

I am speaking like many citizens have done to vent their frustration in recent weeks, either in our offices, or through public forums and social media in Quebec and Canada. This way of doing things without taking into consideration the real needs of Canadians does not make sense. Instead of being concerned about the health of seniors, veterans and aboriginals, the government shocks the conscience of the public to shine light on the inefficiency of public services. I am sorry, but since the Senate does not provide a service to Canadians, let us get rid of it! During the past century, 13 attempts were made to reform the Senate and they all failed. Let us get it over with!

Let us get back to the legitimacy of the appointments made under this bill. There is no legitimacy at all. The Prime Minister does not even have to accept the decision made by voters in the provinces. As I said, he is only bound by clause 3 of the first part of the bill. Does this mean he could wait until the list includes the names of people he really wants to see in the Senate?

Section 44 of the Constitution Act, 1982 does allow the Canadian Parliament to amend the Senate without complying with the normal but very elaborate amending procedures in the Canadian Constitution. Is this a reason good enough to not consult the provinces? After all, we are talking about what is a sensitive issue for several Canadian provinces, given the number of representatives in the Senate which, in itself, imposes a minimum number of members in the House for some provinces.

We are getting into a more concrete area, namely the democratic representation in the House of Commons. Since the government refuses to debate any issue in the House, what will happen to the provinces that do not agree with this reform? What means will they have to put an end to this unbelievable travesty by the Conservatives, who are afraid of any public debate?

It is unacceptable to try to divide a population that needs its elected representatives to work instead to create jobs and improve economic security in the country. As we all know, the gap between the rich and the poor in Canada is growing exponentially. Statistics released in recent days confirm it. Can we deal with the real issues and show leadership by simply abolishing this outdated institution in the 21^st century?