Bill S-16 (Historical)

Tackling Contraband Tobacco Act

An Act to amend the Criminal Code (trafficking in contraband tobacco)

This enactment amends the Criminal Code to create a new offence of trafficking in contraband tobacco and to provide for minimum penalties of imprisonment for repeat offenders.

Bill S-16--Time Allocation Motion

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has misunderstood what I was saying. Again, when there were discussions as to how many speeches there would be from each party, I was the one who said—and my colleagues will attest to this—that I was not surprised that 10 speakers would be unacceptable to the NDP. I believe that 100 or 1,000 speakers would be completely unacceptable to the NDP. It would want to delay all justice bills and all the bills that stand up for victims and law-abiding Canadians. The New Democrats would want to talk about it forever.

I stood up for the NDP, in that sense. I said that I am not surprised at all. They would want to go on for years and debate all our justice legislation.

Why do we have elections? It is because Canadians have the opportunity to say very clearly that they want us to get tough on crime. They want us to stand up for victims. That is why I am pleased. In each of the last four elections, more and more Canadians have made that point. They want exactly what it is that were are doing in Parliament, and I am very proud to be associated with that.

[Raymond Côté, NDP, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister and his government colleagues clearly do not understand the message the official opposition is trying to get across.

The minister is targeting the symptoms of something he considers to be a problem: thoroughly debating important bills. We are not denying that Bill S-16 is an important bill.

However, instead of trying to understand why we are hesitant and why we want to have thorough, comprehensive debates in which a large number of MPs can speak, the government is systematically refusing to listen to recommendations from the opposition. That is a very serious problem.

We will therefore not stop putting pressure on the government. As long as it keeps refusing to listen to our recommendations and our amendments in committee, we will keep up the pressure. As soon as the government is open to our suggestions, as the Prime Minister claimed he would be in previous years, it might see less heated debates or, at the very least, debates could come to a natural end because of a lack of speakers.

Why does the minister refuse to consider the real reason behind our resistance?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I disagree with the member. I thoroughly understand the NDP, and I know exactly where it is coming from. When we bring forward pieces of legislation to crack down on crime in this country, to better represent the interests of victims, they are against it. I understand that, and I completely disagree with it. If that is what he is saying, I do disagree with the positions that the NDP take, but I certainly understand where they are coming from.

The member for Selkirk—Interlake brought a bill here to increase the sentences for those individuals involved in kidnapping, sexual assault and murder. The NDP sat on its hands. It did not want that bill to go forward. It did not want to get on its feet to support the member for Selkirk—Interlake.

I completely disagree with the New Democrats, but I want to have it on the record that I thoroughly understand where they are coming from. Again, I completely disagree with them.

[André Bellavance, Bloc, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Mr. Speaker, all we ever see from the Minister of Justice are bills with minimum sentences. If he is in such a rush, why did he not introduce a more complete bill? The Bloc Québécois, the industry in general and police officers have been calling for stricter measures for a long time. In particular, we have been calling for police officers to have the ability to seize smugglers' vehicles.That is not included in this bill.

Why did the minister not include this type of offence in Bill S-16 to enable police officers to be more aggressive and do their job better?

In addition, there is no increase in the cost of factory permits for tobacco manufacturers. It only costs $5,000 for a permit to manufacture cigarettes, which, in many cases, go directly to smugglers. Why not increase that amount to $5 million?

Those are only a few examples, and here is one more. Why is the government making cuts to border services when it claims to want to put an end to contraband tobacco?

In my own riding, I have worked with the Association des marchands dépanneurs et épiciers du Québec. That is what people want to see and that is not in this bill. I would like the minister to explain why.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member says the Minister of Justice always wants the same thing. Yes, we want to better represent victims in this country and we want to crack down on crime. That is exactly what my colleagues and I want. We have been very consistent in that regard.

If the hon. member wants to have a look at some of the details and accompanying announcements, my colleague, the Minister of Public Safety, made it clear that there is going to be a 50-person unit within the RCMP devoted to cracking down on contraband tobacco. Again, this is a step in the right direction. There are now more border guards. More resources have been directed toward that since this government took office. As well, we have updated the laws.

The member talked about car thefts. Again, with no help from opposition parties, we have brought in separate laws with respect to automobile theft and the gangs and organized crime that get involved with chop shops. This is by no means the only bill we have put forward that tackles this area, and I would ask him to look at our overall record. I hope he will finally come onside and start supporting these important efforts.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, once again, we are being muzzled. This is not surprising, coming from a government that was found to be in contempt of Parliament, which was a first in Canadian history. This shows the extent of the government's contempt—not just lack of understanding—for what we call democracy here in Canada. We are talking about a 48th gag order. The government is shutting down debate on a bill that is important to us.

The minister said that if the NDP had the choice, it would talk about the bill forever, but this is because this bill affects so many ridings and so many people. We have questions, and it is only natural we would want to discuss them, for our constituents. I remember that when I ran in 2008, people came to talk to me about contraband tobacco. This issue is very important, not only in terms of public safety, of course, but also in terms of health.

Democracy implies consultation. We know that the minister did not hold consultations, particularly with first nations. I would like to know why not.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Mr. Speaker, he asked about how democracy works, and he said he spoke with individuals in his own constituency about the problems with respect to contraband tobacco. We heard the same thing. I would put it back to him. What is he going to say to the people after he tells them that when the government brought in legislation directed at cracking down on contraband tobacco and dedicating greater resources to it that the NDP did not want to move forward and wanted to delay it?

I think he is going to have some challenges when speaking with those people. We have heard from those individuals. I have heard from individuals who have described what a problem this is. We want to help everyone across this country crack down on this issue. This is exactly what this country needs. These are specific provisions that would deal with contraband. This is how democracy works. When he goes back to tell his constituents what the government is doing, they are going to applaud and say this is exactly what needs to be done in this country. That is what democracy is all about.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the minister speaking on these very important matters. I must be frank. I am a little disappointed, particularly with the members of Parliament from Quebec. When it came to our megatrials legislation, they quickly came on board because they saw that the government was taking comprehensive action on dealing with organized crime.

This bill also cracks down on organized crime. In fact, law enforcement officials tell us that this has been a long-standing problem that creates a threat to public safety. I want to see this legislation brought to committee so we can start discussing it and bring in experts to have a full vetting on this.

Could the Minister of Justice again explain why this is not only in our economic interests but also in the interests of having safer streets, and why this needs to go forward to committee?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member for his continued interest in all our efforts to better protect Canadians. It is a public safety issue. It is an issue that is related to criminal activity. As we know, tobacco use continues to be the most preventable cause of premature death in this country. Cracking down on tobacco in this country is a health issue as well.

I think the bill addresses all those areas. We do not want contraband tobacco being distributed or brought into this country. We want to get the message out that this is a preventable form of death for many individuals.

We want to make sure the message about tobacco and its use gets out to people. This is exactly what we need. We have expanded the provisions, and not just from the Excise Act. By putting it directly in the Criminal Code, it now sends a message to organized crime about the seriousness with which this government takes this matter. I want to say again how much I appreciate the member's support on this, and indeed all the measures we have brought forward in the justice field.

[Alain Giguère, NDP, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Mr. Speaker, given that we live in a glass house, I will not be throwing stones at anyone. However, I would like the Minister of Justice to realize that we need a law to fight organized crime and contraband cigarettes. We want the law to be effective. Therein lies the problem.

All too often, this Parliament has passed laws that had good intentions, but were not used by prosecutors because they felt that the burden of proof imposed by the laws in question was too onerous and they were not more effective than the old laws. The prosecutors preferred to continue using the old provisions of the Criminal Code rather than the new ones because they got better results.

Attorneys do not like to have laws that will be deemed ultra vires by all judges because they cannot be enforced. That is a major problem.

When we want to fight organized crime, it is not enough to say that we want to fight it. We have to actually do it. Unfortunately, all too often, the Conservatives listen to no one, not even us or the experts. What is more, their laws are not used.

For example, they want to play hardball when someone is convicted of kidnapping and murder. However, the Criminal Code already provides for a life sentence without eligibility for parole for 25 years. They cannot impose a longer sentence. Nevertheless, they talk tough and put out propaganda. That has to stop.

In closing, I will say that we want a law to fight organized crime, not just an advertising flyer.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Mr. Speaker, this is typical of the NDP members. They say they want to do something in the area of crime, but then they oppose all the measures that do exactly that. It is like a trade deal. They say they do not have a problem with trade deals, but they have opposed all the trade deals over the last 40 or 50 years because they are all wrong. This is the problem with the NDP.

What we are doing is actually implementing legislation and moving forward. The member asks whether people can be prosecuted under the old law. Guess what? I have some wonderful news on this piece of legislation. He will notice when it gets before the committee that we are keeping the provisions of the Excise Tax Act. If there is a decision to proceed under the act, all those provisions are right there. That is the way it is in Canada. In addition, we have also now put it in the Criminal Code, to have this alternate avenue by which these offences can be prosecuted. If the member likes the old law, then he will be very happy and pleased when it gets to the committee. In order to crack down on organized crime we need new provisions, and that is exactly why we have put it in the Criminal Code.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the Conservatives for bringing in measures to deal with contraband tobacco. That is a positive thing.

When I was first elected in 2008, this issue was being discussed. When I was a member of the public safety committee in 2009, we had a study on contraband tobacco. Every member in this House realizes that there is a serious problem, both for the health of Canadians and in dealing with criminal law.

However, the real issue that we are talking about is the proper way to pass those laws. We on this side of the House think that we should not rush a bill through, that every bill deserves proper scrutiny, not only to ensure that it does what it is set out to do, but also because every member of this House can make a contribution to improving a bill like this.

What have been the statistics on contraband tobacco entering our country over the last five years? Can the minister give us information in this House about whether we are seeing increases in contraband tobacco entering our communities, or have we had some success?

One thing I will point out is that the current government has closed certain border crossings over the last three years. I am sometimes concerned that we have made the border a bit more porous and allowed entry points for contraband tobacco to enter our communities.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I agree with the hon. member that this is a growing problem. In terms of dealing with this piece of legislation, this is a great opportunity to move this bill into the committee where members can hear from individuals who are on the ground, people with knowledge in this area. That would work very well.

The member makes a good point in terms of what we have to be doing, in moving forward. As I indicated to one of his colleagues, the RCMP will have a special unit composed of 50 representatives of the RCMP completely devoted to cracking down on contraband tobacco.

I agree, and he has made the point directly or indirectly, that this is becoming an increasing challenge for law enforcement. This is why we have expanded the provisions to the Criminal Code, and why my colleague, the Minister of Public Safety has come forward with that initiative within the RCMP. It is a comprehensive approach. Again when we go back to our constituents and we hear what is happening on the ground, it is exactly what this country needs at this time.

[Christine Moore, NDP, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would first like to say that I find the whole situation pretty sad. It is sad that the government has moved so many time allocation motions—in fact, the most in the whole history of Parliament. I would remind the House that we are not in a time of war, at least, not as far as I know. I do not understand what is so pressing.

It is also particularly unfortunate that, this time, this is coming from the Minister of Justice, someone who is supposed to be one of this country's leading authorities on justice. You could say that this individual is supposed to lead by example. When we talk about justice, that automatically means talking about democracy and upholding people's rights. It is really sad that the government is behaving like this. When the government does such things, it leaves the entire country with a certain impression. It is basically like saying that there is no point in taking the time to negotiate and let people express their opinions, because the government will pass whatever it wants using a gag order. This is truly unfortunate.

I would like to hear what the minister thinks about this. Is he comfortable with the impression this gives the entire country, all Canadians? Is this the message he wants to send to Canadians—that the government does not listen to people, that it passes bills using gag orders and steamrolls everyone in order to get its way, instead of coming up with strong arguments? Does it have to ram everything down our throats?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Mr. Speaker, that is one of the great things about the democratic process in this country and one of the things in which I take a great deal of satisfaction.

I can tell members that in the 2004, 2006, 2008 and 2011 elections, those four elections, we were very clear with the Canadian public. We said that we would move forward with cracking down on crime, ensuring that individuals found guilty of crime are accountable for what they have done; that we would make it a priority to stand up for victims; and that we would look at efficiencies within the criminal justice system to make it work better.

One of the things of which I am particularly proud, and the record will bear me out on this, is that in each of those four elections more and more Canadians responded to what we were saying. Our justice agenda is only part of what we are doing, but an important part, nonetheless.

The hon. member, on five occasions, said how sad she is. She can take some comfort, and I hope it will make her happier, when she looks at the provisions of the bill because we are cracking down on a big problem in this country, which is contraband tobacco.

I would suggest this is a way of reinvigorating her. I hope she feels much better about this when she has a look at the provisions of this, because this is on the right track.