Bill C-13 (Historical)

Protecting Canadians from Online Crime Act

An Act to amend the Criminal Code, the Canada Evidence Act, the Competition Act and the Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters Act

This enactment amends the Criminal Code to provide, most notably, for
(a) a new offence of non-consensual distribution of intimate images as well as complementary amendments to authorize the removal of such images from the Internet and the recovery of expenses incurred to obtain the removal of such images, the forfeiture of property used in the commission of the offence, a recognizance order to be issued to prevent the distribution of such images and the restriction of the use of a computer or the Internet by a convicted offender;
(b) the power to make preservation demands and orders to compel the preservation of electronic evidence;
(c) new production orders to compel the production of data relating to the transmission of communications and the location of transactions, individuals or things;
(d) a warrant that will extend the current investigative power for data associated with telephones to transmission data relating to all means of telecommunications;
(e) warrants that will enable the tracking of transactions, individuals and things and that are subject to legal thresholds appropriate to the interests at stake; and
(f) a streamlined process of obtaining warrants and orders related to an authorization to intercept private communications by ensuring that those warrants and orders can be issued by a judge who issues the authorization and by specifying that all documents relating to a request for a related warrant or order are automatically subject to the same rules respecting confidentiality as the request for authorization.
The enactment amends the Canada Evidence Act to ensure that the spouse is a competent and compellable witness for the prosecution with respect to the new offence of non-consensual distribution of intimate images.
It also amends the Competition Act to make applicable, for the purpose of enforcing certain provisions of that Act, the new provisions being added to the Criminal Code respecting demands and orders for the preservation of computer data and orders for the production of documents relating to the transmission of communications or financial data. It also modernizes the provisions of the Act relating to electronic evidence and provides for more effective enforcement in a technologically advanced environment.
Lastly, it amends the Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters Act to make some of the new investigative powers being added to the Criminal Code available to Canadian authorities executing incoming requests for assistance and to allow the Commissioner of Competition to execute search warrants under the Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters Act.

Tougher Penalties for Child Predators Act

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

moved that Bill C-26, an act to amend the Criminal Code, the Canada Evidence Act and the Sex Offender Information Registration Act, to enact the High Risk Child Sex Offender Database Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, I am always pleased to rise in this splendid chamber to be with my colleagues, particularly to speak to such an important bill as Bill C-26, the tougher penalties for child predators act.

The bill, as members know, would touch upon three on three important areas: sentencing reform; the Canada Evidence Act, the evidentiary reforms we believe necessary; and enhancing the practical tracking of sex offenders through our public safety department.

The bill would represent another positive, significant initiative that our government has brought forward to address one of the absolute worst forms of crime: the sexual abuse of children.

As a new father, I must say that in addition to the joy that a child brings to one's life, it is certainly also a stark reminder of the vulnerability of young children and the sacred duty that we all share to protect our youth, particularly, children who are subject to sexual abuse.

It is incumbent upon us to continually assess the current adequacy of the law in that regard. How does our criminal law in fact protect our children and ensure that we are effectively and comprehensively addressing these heinous crimes of sexual abuse?

Sadly, children and youth are far too likely to become victims of sexual offences, more so than adults. For instance, in 2011, police reported that cases had actually gone up. Reported rates indicate that children were five times more likely than adults to be victims of sexual assault. In fact, in 2012, police reported incidents of child sex offences had increased by 3%, and that was up over 3% the year before that. These statistics from Justice Canada indicate, clearly, that the current laws have to be examined and improved. That is what we are attempting to do.

The statistics, of course, do not tell the full story. They do not tell, or speak to, or truly reflect the devastating lifelong impact of a sexual offence on a child.

The amendments to the Criminal Code, the Canada Evidence Act and the Sex Offender Information Registration Act set out in the bill would help to ensure that any offenders who have committed sexual offences against children are fully held to account for crimes committed against the most vulnerable members of our society. These amendments would also serve as a deterrent for these heinous crimes.

The bill would also create a high-risk child sex offender database. Practically speaking, this would assist in protecting society's most vulnerable from those who are known to have offended against them and those who are most likely to do so again: a classic incurable pedophile.

To achieve these important objectives of protection, the bill would maintain several different components. First, maximum and minimum penalties for certain Criminal Code child sexual offences would be increased, building upon the recent reforms that were enacted by the Safe Streets and Communities Act, formerly known as Bill C-10.

The Criminal Code already contains comprehensive provisions protecting children from sexual exploitation, including both general and child-specific sexual offences.

The child sexual offence reforms would ensure that anyone who commits any of these offences against a child faces a mandatory minimum penalty. That means jail time, in all cases, if someone sexually abuses a child.

Yet more can be done. The bill proposes, further, to increase the mandatory minimum penalties and maximum penalties that would apply to child sex offences to better deter and denounce this type of heinous offence. Maximum penalties for breaches of prohibition orders, probation orders, and peace bonds, all of which can be described as supervision orders and aimed at protecting those who are most vulnerable again from an individual who has been released who has arguably already been afforded the opportunity to be back in society, albeit with restrictions.

The intent here is to ensure that when people violate conditions imposed by a court, conditions that were aimed specifically to protect a child, there will be accountability. A stay-away order, for example, from schools, pools, and playgrounds is a classic attempt to keep sex offenders away from children. When those violations of probation occur, there would be a specific offence attached.

These tools would authorize judges to impose conditions on child sex offenders or suspected child sex offenders by prohibiting unsupervised contact with children. Again, that would be a protective order made by a court to hopefully pre-empt any further offence. If those pre-emptive orders were breached, the bill would bring about criminal accountability.

A sentencing judge would have to consider imposing a probation order on an offender convicted of a sexual offence on a child, and probation orders could be imposed on an offender sentenced to two years' imprisonment. A peace bond could also be imposed if there were a reasonable fear that a person would commit a child sex offence.

Strict adherence to the conditions imposed by these supervision orders significantly reduces the risk of reoffending. Many breaches of supervision orders do not involve the commission of a new offence that would warrant a new charge, but any breach of a condition imposed to protect children, we believe, would be a significant indicator of risk to children.

Accordingly, the protection of children and the prevention of sexual offences against them demand significant condemnation of all violations of supervision orders. Importantly, this bill would increase the penalties for breaches of the new probation order proposed by Bill C-13, the protecting Canadians from online crime act, so I would describe this as sister legislation. As the Speaker is aware, this new offence of non-consensual distribution of intimate images very often includes a pre-emptive attempt to stop the spread of the offending material.

We know that in the case of young suicides, it is that devastating feeling of hopelessness that the material on the Internet is being passed around not only in the community but literally around the globe. It has a devastating psychological impact on the individual. This new legislation aims not only to help remove the material but also in some cases to restrict the offender or the accused from having any further contact with that young person, so there is very much a connection between this bill and Bill C-13, I would submit.

This amendment would ensure that penalties for both the new probation order and for child sex offence prohibition orders are consistent. Again, it is important that we have consistency in the legislation.

The bill also proposes sentencing reforms that would clarify and codify the rules regarding the imposition of concurrent and consecutive sentences, something that there has been confusion on in the past. In general, concurrent sentences are imposed and served simultaneously for two or more convictions that arise out of one continuous act or single transaction, often referred to in the courts as the same event or series of events rule.

Conversely, consecutive sentences are imposed and served one on top of the other for multiple convictions for unrelated offences, as they arise out of separate criminal transactions. The concepts of concurrent and consecutive sentences predate Confederation. Amendments over the years have complicated the statement of the rule contained in the Criminal Code to the point that it sometimes offers little guidance to the courts.

To address this deficiency, the proposed amendments would direct courts to consider ordering, where applicable, that sentences of imprisonment be imposed and served consecutively. That is to say that when the court would sentence the offender for multiple offences at the same time, the proposed amendments would direct courts to consider ordering that the terms of imprisonment for offences arising out of separate events or a separate series of events would be served consecutively.

This bill also proposes to codify the approach of the courts when one of the offences was committed either while on judicial interim release—or bail, as it is commonly known—or while the accused was fleeing a police officer. In such cases, in order to discourage offenders from committing offences with impunity, courts would usually order that the offences be served consecutively to other offences for which the court would sentence the offender.

The purpose of these proposed amendments on consecutive versus concurrent sentencing is to try to bring about a greater sense of consistency and understanding as to when and why consecutive sentences apply to certain circumstances and to certain offenders. In particular, for multiple child sex offences, including child pornography offences, we believe that sentences should not receive a sentencing discount, as it is sometimes described, whereby a court directs that the sentences imposed are served concurrently, meaning that the offender only has to serve the longest sentence that is imposed for a series of convictions.

Put another way, this proposed amendment would require that sentences for child pornography offences and others would be served consecutive to any sentence imposed at the same time when there has been what is called a contact child sex offence or when there have been multiple victims. Sentences imposed at the same time for contact sexual offences committed against one victim would be served consecutively to those imposed for contact sexual offences committed against any other victim.

This gives individual recognition in the criminal system for each of those victims in the sentence that is meted out. These reforms end the sentencing discount that is sometimes afforded to child sex offenders who are sentenced at the same time for multiple charges. In particular, they ensure that the law recognizes the devastating impact that sexual abuse has on each individual life.

The bill sends a clear message to child sex offenders that there will be no more discount and that they will serve jail time for each and every victim, each and every offence. We believe this is a just result, given the seriousness of the type of offence and the fundamental injustices that have occurred when there have been multiple victims.

Another important sentencing reform included in this bill is to ensure that any evidence that an offence was committed while the offender was subject to a conditional sentence order—that is, a sentence that was served in the community or while on parole or while on statutory release—is also considered an aggravating factor for sentencing purposes.

These amendments will ensure that the gravity of committing an offence while subject to one of these more lenient orders is better reflected in the sentence that is then imposed.

The bill will also make it possible to ensure that the spouse of the accused can testify in child pornography cases. Under the Canada Evidence Act and common law, unless spouses are irreconcilably separated, for most offences, the spouse of the accused cannot testify for the prosecution even if he or she so desires. One spouse is not competent to testify and cannot be compelled to testify against the other. The spouse of the accused is not compellable.

The Canada Evidence Act contains statutory exceptions to these rules permitting spousal testimony for most child sex offences and offences of violence against young persons, but not for child pornography offences. Again, we hope to bring about a greater sense of consistency when it comes to spouses and their competency and compellability before the courts.

The amendments proposed in this bill add child pornography to the list of exceptions in the Canada Evidence Act, making the spouse of a person accused of any of the child pornography offences competent and compellable to testify for the prosecution. In child pornography cases, as we know well, the evidence of the accused's spouse may be required to prove the guilt of the accused. For example, the spouse's denial of responsibility for child pornography on a shared home computer may be necessary to prove the accused's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Without this amendment, child pornographers may be able to get away with this very disgusting crime, and we must put an end to this legal loophole. I would submit that the current state of the law on this issue is unacceptable. Any form of child pornography we know is taking advantage of and exploiting children.

This bill also includes amendments to the Sex Offender Information Registration Act. These amendments would require registered sex offenders to provide more information regarding their travel abroad and would permit information-sharing on registered sex offenders among officials, those responsible for the national sex offender registry, and the Canada Border Services Agency. All of this reform is aimed to prevent travelling sex offenders from accessing children in foreign jurisdictions and to facilitate holding them to account for their crimes.

My friend the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness will be speaking to this issue. My friend the Minister of Veterans Affairs is a former police officer. I know he shares the desire to break down any barriers to sharing information between agencies to help hold sex offenders accountable. In this day and age, we cannot be seen as a nation that allows those convicted of these heinous crimes in our courts to then go abroad and take advantage of jurisdictions where laws and enforcement may not be as rigorous. We owe a larger duty of care to children in other countries as well. They are equally vulnerable.

Currently, the law as it pertains to registered sex offenders and the reporting of absences of seven days or more for trips within or outside Canada only requires them to report specific designations and addresses for domestic trips. This bill would amend the act to ensure that all registered sex offenders report every address or location at which they expect to stay on a trip for seven days or longer outside Canada, as well as specific travel dates. These amendments would also require registered sex offenders with a child sex offence conviction to report absences of any duration for trips outside Canada and to provide specific dates and locations. These amendments would help facilitate information-sharing with foreign jurisdictions, which I consider to be appropriate.

As well, the bill proposes to authorize national sex offender registry officials to disclose information on registered sex offenders to Canada Border Services Agency officials, particularly in cases of child sex offenders assessed as high risk, who will be placed on their lookout system. CBSA would also be authorized to collect information about these sex offenders upon return from travel outside Canada and to share this information with the national sex offender registry officials.

Given that the national sex offender registry officials and CBSA officials do not currently have the authority to share information on registered sex offenders, we believe these amendments are critical and practical in ensuring that authorities are aware of the activities of sex offenders who travel outside our country. Without this knowledge, it may be impossible to detect and combat this type of criminality.

Last but certainly not least with respect to the importance of this bill, the bill proposes the creation of a high-risk child sex offender database. It would authorize the RCMP to establish and administer a publicly accessible national database of high-risk child sex offenders who have been the subject of a public notification in a province or territory.

All of this, I would submit, is in keeping with previous efforts that we have made to improve our criminal justice system to protect our most vulnerable, particularly our children. We have made numerous amendments and brought forward some 30 criminal justice initiatives in the last eight years, including taking such practical measures as increasing the age of protection, putting in place legislation to make the reporting of child pornography by Internet service providers mandatory, and strengthening the sentencing and monitoring of dangerous offenders. All of this is in keeping with our efforts to make this country safer and to make our justice system more just.

We have also put in place the necessary resources to set up child advocacy centres in 10 locations across the country. We have launched the getcybersafe.gc.ca website for public awareness. We have joined in the Global Alliance against Child Sex Abuse Online. I am proud to say that all of this furthers the intent of this bill.

The fundamental message is clear. We must do everything in our power to protect children. I know this is something you share as a father, Mr. Speaker, and we all share as parents and those who care for children. Accordingly, I would encourage all members to support this important legislation.

Privacy

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice]

Mr. Speaker, the member should know that Bill C-13 does not create any new protection from criminal or civil liability for those who voluntarily assist law enforcement. It simply clarifies existing protections under section 25 in the case law.

I would suggest she take a look at that.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Okay.

(Clause 225 agreed to: yeas 5; nays 4)

Is there discussion on any clauses from 226 to 230? No?

(Clauses 226 to 230 inclusive agreed to)

Colleagues, we have clause 231.

We have amendment PV-13, which is deemed to have been moved. I have a ruling on this amendment.

Bill C-13 amends the Railway Safety Act by removing section 50, which requires prepublication of certain proposed regulations in the Canada Gazette. The amendment seeks to re-establish the prepublication requirement by expanding it to every regulation made under the act.

As House of Commons Procedure and Practice, Second Edition, states on page 766:

An amendment to a bill that was referred to a committee after second reading or a bill at report stage is out of order if it is beyond the scope and principle of the bill.

In the opinion of the chair, the amendment seeks to maintain the prepublication requirement, which is contrary to the principle of the bill; therefore, the amendment is inadmissible.

I shall move to clause 231.

Is there discussion?

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. O'Sullivan, when we broke, I was about to ask you about striking the right balance between addressing the needs and concerns of victims, while also protecting civil liberties. As you know, we're all struggling with this here. Where do you draw the line between the release of what some people, some civil libertarians, may say is private information and being able to work quickly enough to save the lives of vulnerable people?

On Tuesday at this committee we heard from Mr. Gilhooly, who is both a lawyer and a victim himself. He is a brave man, and he has come forward to tell his story about how he was victimized by Graham James.

I asked him that same question, and he said, “my hope is that we're going to err on the side of giving the police the appropriate tools to intervene”, and that in instances in Bill C-13 where there is no egregious violation of privacy rights that comes into play, “We, as victims...don't want to see rights trampled, but the tie has to go to the victim here”. Let me go on for just a minute also because I want you to know what the other side said. The Criminal Lawyers' Association said that a “tie doesn't go to the victim”. It said, “The tie should go to the charter, which is the supreme law”.

Would you agree that the government has a difficult task in finding the right balance between civil liberties and the protection of Canadians and victims? Would you agree that instances where there is no egregious violation of privacy rights, the tie must go to the victim? What's your view on that?

[James L. Turk, Executive Director, Canadian Association of University Teachers]

Thank you very much.

My name is James Turk. I'm the executive director of the Canadian Association of University Teachers. We represent 68,000 academic staff at 124 universities and colleges across Canada.

We've had a long concern with lawful access legislation as it has come through its various iterations. I would like to bring to your attention three concerns that we have with Bill C-13.

The first is, as Mr. Geist was mentioning, the reduction in the legal threshold to obtain personal records. The second is that Bill C-13 sets out that ISPs that preserve data or hand it over voluntarily will not incur civil or criminal liability. The third concern is that it adds “national...origin” to the definition of “identifiable group” in the Criminal Code. This is the part of the Criminal Code that relates to hate speech. It provides the possibility of criminalizing political discourse.

Let me deal with the first issue, and that is the lower threshold. Current Bill C-13 provisions for a production order for transmission data and tracking data reduce the threshold—as you know, I hope—from “reasonable grounds to believe” to “reasonable grounds to suspect”. This is a possible next step after a preservation demand or a preservation order for transmission data. The higher threshold—the current threshold—of “reasonable grounds to believe” still applies for production orders that exclude transmission data, so that if you want the content, the request has to meet the standard of “reasonable grounds to believe”. But if you want the metadata, it's only “reasonable grounds to suspect”.

Given the number of requests we know of in Canada in recent time, and given what we know of what is going in the United States.... You'll recall that in June 2013, the FISA court in the U.S. required Verizon to provide the NSA with all its customer metadata within the United States, including local phone calls. As a result, the NSA collected and retained all metadata for every call, every cellphone call, and every smartphone call attempted or made in the United States.

I agree with Mr. Geist that metadata can make the content irrelevant. The data crumbs that we use in communication technology, including the time and duration of the communication, the specific device that is used, and the geolocation, can allow enormous invasion of individuals' privacy rights.

Let's imagine that a member of this committee makes a telephone call to someone and then a week later visits an office building; sometime later makes a second phone call to a different number and a week after that, visits a different office building. What would the analysis of the metadata of this example look like or tell us? Well, if it is fed into a profile, the metadata on the telephone and the devices of the politician could tell a government agency that the first call was to a doctor; the first office building visited was a doctor's office. The second phone call was to a medical specialist; the second office building visit was to that specialist's office.

So what? We know that a politician has visited two doctors. All the government agency would then need to have access to is the Internet activity of that politician to have a very good idea what disease the politician was suffering from or was concerned about, if the member went on the Internet to WebMD.com/colorectal-cancer—or Parkinson's, or HIV.

Arguably, the metadata in the above example—two calls to two doctors, two visits to two separate doctors, and Internet activity in that time period—is as invasive as the content of communications. Bill C-13 lowers the threshold for state surveillance for that politician's visits to the doctors but maintains a higher level for any email message that politician might send to his or her spouse about his or her medical condition.

I can give you loads of other examples in which analysis of metadata can be highly invasive. Communication between a husband and wife can reveal many dynamics of their relationship: where they live, where they work, the time they go to sleep, when they wake up, when they leave home, and whether they're home together or not.

Access to metadata can also determine with reasonable probability that two people share a close relationship, by seeing that their devices are in the same location on repeated nights; or whether a person has a drinking problem from how often there are calls to Alcoholics Anonymous; or whether they are considering an abortion by knowing whether they have made calls to an abortion clinic; or whether they have a gambling problem, from their having made repeated calls to a bookie or to a helpline.

In other words, metadata are retained by an Internet service provider for a long period of time. The collection and analysis of these data in a large pool of metadata allow it to be matched up with real-world events. This makes it easier to get profiles and violate the privacy of individuals without the higher level of authority that would currently be needed in order to tap their telephone. A lower threshold of metadata opens the door to mass surveillance.

The second concern is the ISP immunity for turning over personal data. The Supreme Court, as you know, has reserved judgment on the constitutionality of the state obtaining subscriber information without a warrant under PIPEDA. We're expecting the decision in R. v. Spencer reasonably soon.

Advances in technology and the value of metadata for state surveillance make ISPs in many ways the gatekeepers of Canadians' privacy information. Offering civil or criminal liability exemption for ISPs invites ISPs to aid invasive state surveillance rather than incentivizing ISPs to protect Canadians' personal information with political and legal means. I would expect Telus, or Bell, or Rogers to have as their first interest protecting the confidentiality and the privacy of their subscribers' information. This bill would encourage them to see themselves as partners in state surveillance of their own customers.

The last comment is with regard to the expansion of hate speech to capture political speech. Bill C-13, as I mentioned at the beginning, adds “national...origin” to the definition of “identifiable group” in the Criminal Code. This part of the Criminal Code relates to hate speech. By including national origin as part of the definition of identifiable groups, certain speech—for example, speech critical of a national government, whether it be Israel, or Cuba, or the Ukraine—could be characterized as hate speech. We don't have to remember too far back, just to the 1980s, when a similar provision was used to prosecute persons critical of the apartheid regime in South Africa.

Like others who have appeared before this committee, we would encourage you to split the bill. Combatting cyberbullying is a worthy goal, but expanded surveillance powers over the citizenry by a government has the potential to represent an entire rebalancing between individual freedom and autonomy versus the power of the state. This fundamental tension in democratic society must be approached with care and an almost overabundance of consultation and concern for privacy.

Not doing so—refusing to split the bill and refusing to consider these concerns that Mr. Geist and I have raised—at best will represent for the Government of Canada an exercise in futility. Overreaching legislation will spend the next five to 10 years in the courts, and in our view, will be ultimately struck down as a violation of Canadians' constitutional rights. At worst, refusal to split the bill and revise these sections will increase government surveillance powers at the expense of individual liberty and autonomy, and Canadian citizens will be the worse for that.

Thank you very much.

[Dr. Michael Geist, Canada Research Chair, Internet and E-commerce Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning. As you heard, my name is Michael Geist. I'm a law professor at the University of Ottawa. I have appeared many times before committees on digital policy issues, including privacy, but I appear today in a personal capacity, representing only my own views.

As you may know, I've been critical of the lawful access bills that have been introduced by both Liberal and Conservative governments. But I want to start by emphasizing that criticism of lawful access legislation does not mean opposition to ensuring that law enforcement agencies have the tools they need to address crime in the online environment.

As Ms. McDonald can attest, when her organization launched Project Cleanfeed Canada in 2006 I publicly supported that initiative, which targets child pornography by working to establish a system that protects children, safeguards free speech, and contains effective oversight.

In the context of Bill C-13 there is similar work to be done to ensure that we do not unduly and unnecessarily sacrifice our privacy in the name of fighting online harms. As Ms. O'Sullivan just stated, there is a balance to be struck, and as Carol Todd told this committee, we should not have to choose between our privacy and our safety.

Given the limited time, let me start by saying that I support previous witnesses' calls to split this bill so that cyberbullying can be effectively addressed in the way that we have just heard and that we can more effectively examine lawful access. Moreover, I support the calls we've heard for a comprehensive review of privacy and surveillance in Canada.

I'm happy to discuss these issues further during questions, but I want to focus my time on the privacy concerns associated with this bill. In doing so, I'll leave the cyberbullying provisions for others, such as those we've just heard, to discuss.

With respect to privacy, I want to focus on three issues: the immunity for voluntary disclosure provision; the low threshold for transmission data warrants; and the absence of reporting and disclosure requirements.

First is the creation of an immunity provision for voluntary disclosure of personal information. I believe this immunity provision must be viewed within the context of five facts. Firstly, the law already allows intermediaries to disclose personal information voluntarily as part of an investigation. That's the case for both PIPEDA and the Criminal Code.

Secondly, intermediaries disclose personal information on a voluntary basis without a warrant with shocking frequency. The recent revelation of 1.2 million requests to telecom companies for customer information in 2011 alone, affecting at least 750,000 user accounts, provides a hint of the privacy impact of voluntary disclosures.

Thirdly, disclosures involve more than just basic subscriber information. Indeed, this committee has heard testimony directly from law enforcement, in which the RCMP noted:

Currently specific types of data such as transmission or tracking data may be obtained through voluntary disclosure by a third party....

In fact, since PIPEDA is so open-ended, content can also be disclosed voluntarily, so long as it does not involve an interception.

Fourthly, intermediaries do not notify users about their disclosures, keeping hundreds of thousands of Canadians in the dark. Contrary to some of the discussion we have heard, there is no notification requirement within the bill to address this issue.

Fifthly, this voluntary disclosure provision should also, I think, be viewed in concert with the lack of meaningful changes to Bill S-4, which would collectively expand the warrantless voluntary disclosure provisions to any organization.

Given this background, I would argue that the provision is a mistake and should be removed. It unquestionably increases the likelihood of voluntary disclosures at the very time that Canadians are increasingly concerned about such activity. Moreover, it does so with no reporting requirements, oversight, or transparency.

To those who argue that it merely codifies existing law, let me say that there are at least two notable changes, both of concern.

The first is that it expands the scope of “public officer” to include the likes of CSEC's and CSIS's employees and other public officials. In the post-Snowden environment, with global concerns about the lack of accountability for surveillance activities, this would run the risk of increasing those activities.

The second is that the Criminal Code currently includes a requirement of good faith and reasonableness on the part of the organization voluntarily disclosing the information. This new immunity provision does not include those requirements, potentially granting immunity even when disclosures are unreasonable.

In short, this provision isn't needed to combat cyberbullying; nor is it a provision in need of updating to combat cybercrime. In fact, I'd argue it is inconsistent with the government's claims of court oversight. I believe it should be removed from the bill.

The second issue I want to focus on is the low threshold for transmission data warrants. As you know, Bill C-13 contains a lower “reason to suspect” threshold for transmission data warrants, and as many have noted, the kind of information sought by transmission data warrants is more commonly referred to as metadata. Some have tried to argue that metadata is non-sensitive information, but that is simply not the case.

There has been some confusion at these hearings regarding how much metadata is included as transmission data. I want to state that this is far more than the question of who phoned whom for how long. It includes highly sensitive information relating to computer-to-computer links, as even law enforcement explained before this committee.

This form of metadata may not contain the content of the message, but its privacy import is very significant. Late last year, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in R. v. Vu on the privacy importance of computer-generated metadata, noting:

In the context of a criminal investigation, however, it can also enable investigators to access intimate details about a user’s interests, habits, and identity, drawing on a record that the user created unwittingly....

Security officials have also commented on the importance of metadata.

General Michael Hayden, the former director of the NSA and of the CIA, has stated, “We kill people based on metadata.”

Stewart Baker, the former NSA general counsel, has stated:

Metadata absolutely tells you everything about somebody’s life. If you have enough metadata, you don’t really need content.

There are numerous studies that confirm Hayden's and Baker's comments. For example, some studies point to calls to religious organizations that allow for inferences about a person's religion, and calls to medical organizations that can allow for inferences on medical conditions. In fact, a recent U.S. court brief signed by some of the world's leading computer experts notes:

Telephony metadata reveals private and sensitive information about people. It can reveal political affiliation, religious practices, and people’s most intimate associations. It reveals who calls a suicide prevention hotline and who calls their elected official; who calls the local Tea Party office and who calls Planned Parenthood. The aggregation of telephony metadata—about a single person over time, about groups of people, or with other datasets—only intensifies the sensitivity of the information.

These are their comments—the comments of security experts in the area.

Further, the Privacy Commissioner of Canada has released a study on the privacy implications of IP addresses, noting how they can be used to develop a highly personal look at individuals.

Indeed, even the justice minister's report, which seems to serve as the policy basis for Bill C-13, recommends the creation of new investigative tools in which “the level of safeguards increases with the level of privacy interest involved”.

Given the level of privacy interest that is involved with metadata, the approach in Bill C-13 for transmission data warrants should be amended by adopting the “reasonable grounds to believe” standard.

My third issue is transparency in reporting. The lack of transparency, disclosure, and reporting requirements associated with warrantless disclosures should be addressed. This combines both PIPEDA and lawful access, but it is made worse by Bill C-13. The stunning revelations we have seen about requests and disclosures of personal information—the majority without court oversight or warrant—point to an enormously troubling weakness in Canada's privacy laws.

Most Canadians have had no awareness of these disclosures and have been shocked to see how frequently they are used. The bills before Parliament seek or propose to expand their scope. In my view, this makes victims of us all, through disclosure of our personal information often without our awareness or explicit consent. When asked for greater transparency, such as we see in other countries, Canada's telecom companies have claimed that government rules prohibit it.

I hope the committee will amend the provisions that make warrantless disclosures more likely. But even if it doesn't, it should surely increase the level of transparency by mandating subscriber notifications, record-keeping of personal information requests, and regular release of transparency reports. These requirements could be added to Bill C-13 to lessen the concern associated with voluntary warrantless disclosure. Moreover, such reporting would not harm investigative activities and would hold the promise of enhancing public confidence in both law enforcement and communications providers.

Finally, I'd like to conclude, with all respect, by pointing to a personal incident involving one of the committee members, Mr. Dechert, that highlights the relevance of these issues.

Many will recall that several years ago Mr. Dechert was himself the victim of a privacy breach, with personal emails that were sent to journalists and were then widely reported in the media. This incident ties together several issues, which I have tried to highlight.

First, privacy interests arise even when you have nothing to hide and when you have done nothing wrong. The harm that arose in that case, despite no wrongdoing, demonstrates the potential victimization that can occur without proper privacy safeguards.

Second, much of that same information runs the risk of voluntary disclosure. Indeed, the expansion of the police officer definition means that in theory even political opponents could seek voluntary disclosure of such information and obtain immunity in doing so. Moreover, there is no notification in such instances.

Third and perhaps most important, the content of the emails that were disclosed was largely irrelevant. It was the metadata—who was being called or contacted, when they were being contacted, where they were being contacted, and for how long—that would itself allow for the same inferences that were mistakenly made during that incident. The privacy interest was in the metadata, which is why a low threshold is so inappropriate.

This kind of privacy harm can victimize anyone. As I've mentioned, we know that at least 750,000 Canadian user accounts are voluntarily disclosed every year—one every 27 seconds. It's why we need to ensure that the law has appropriate safeguards against the misuse of our personal information and why Bill C-13 should be amended.

[Sue O'Sullivan, Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime, Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime]

Thank you for inviting me here today to discuss Bill C-13, the protecting Canadians from online crime act.

I would like to begin by providing you with a quick overview of my office's mandate.

Created in 2007, the Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime receives and reviews complaints from victims, and promotes and facilitates access to federal programs and services for victims of crime by providing information and referrals. We promote the basic principles of justice for victims of crime, we raise awareness among criminal justice personnel and policy-makers about the needs and concerns of victims, and we identify systemic and emerging issues that may negatively impact victims of crime. Basically, we help victims of crime individually and collectively.

Bill C-13 covers a number of aspects relating to telecommunication and crime, including creating a new Criminal Code offence for the non-consensual distribution of intimate images, modernizing the Criminal Code, and providing new investigative tools for law enforcement. Given my mandate and our limited time today, I will restrict my comments to those sections of the bill that relate directly to victims, touching briefly on the importance of law enforcement's having the tools needed to prevent further victimization.

With that restriction in mind, I fully support the provisions of Bill C-13 that create a new offence related to the non-consensual distribution of intimate images, as well as the accompanying Criminal Code enhancements related to this offence, including: empowering a court to make a prohibition order limiting access of an offender to Internet or digital networks; empowering a court to order the removal of intimate images from the Internet; permitting the court to order forfeiture of the computer, cellphone, or other device used in the offences; providing reimbursement to victims for costs incurred in removing the intimate image from the Internet or elsewhere; and empowering the court to make an order to prevent someone from distributing intimate images.

This legislation, if passed, will help to provide tools necessary to assist in reducing cyberbullying and in providing victims with much-needed supports.

Cyberbullying is a relatively new but devastating issue. Canadians are struggling to find the best ways to understand it and most importantly to stop it. The problem of cyberbullying, as we have heard, is not a small one. In a 2007 survey of 13- to 15-year-olds, more than 70% reported having been bullied online, and 44% reported having bullied someone at least once. Canadian teachers have ranked cyberbullying as their issue of highest concern. Out of the six listed options, 89% said that bullying and violence are serious problems in our public schools.

I know you have had some witnesses come before you to discuss their personal and powerful experiences with cyberbullying. I would like to take a moment to acknowledge their bravery and leadership in coming forward to enrich this important public dialogue, despite how difficult it may have been for them. I have learned from speaking to victims directly that despite how hard it might be, victims come forward to discuss and advance these issues for the greater good, to ensure that others do not suffer the same pain they have suffered.

We know that any kind of bullying, including cyberbullying, can have serious and lasting impacts on victims. What is unique about cyberbullying is the staggering speed and reach of the abuse. In mere minutes, intimate or personal images can be shared across networks and the world, forever exposing their victims.

We also know that trying to contain an image that has “gone viral”, as they say, is no small feat, if not in some cases impossible. Even in situations in which victims work with professionals to remove the image, one can never be sure that someone somewhere doesn't have and won't recirculate these images. The feeling of being forever vulnerable and exposed and the long-term impact of the associated emotional burden that comes with it are something that we don't truly understand yet.

Technology and associated crimes are evolving faster than our ability to fully comprehend the lasting effects that these cases are having on victims. We know generally that victims of harassment report a loss of interest in school activities, more absenteeism, lower-quality schoolwork, lower grades, more dropping of classes, and truancy.

Addressing the issue can be equally overwhelming. For this reason, I support the bill's addition of “intimate images” to section 164.1 of the Criminal Code permitting a court to order the removal of intimate images from the Internet, as well as the element of the bill that empowers the court to make an order to prevent someone from distributing intimate images.

In cases in which an order has not been made, removing images is certainly not a straightforward task. For many, the thought of removing images from the Internet can be daunting. How does it work? How can I do it? Where do I turn for help?

In many cases, professional knowledge and service may be required in order to do it with any certainty or effectiveness. However, in cases in which private companies are engaged, there can be significant costs, and these costs should not be borne by the victims. It should never fall on a victim's shoulders to absorb the costs of removing images; that is simply unacceptable.

With that in mind, I support Bill C-13's proposal to provide reimbursement to victims for costs incurred in removing the intimate image from the Internet or elsewhere.

While I support these elements of the bill relating to restitution, I think there is a need first to extend the period for which restitution can be sought; second, to consider alternative supports for victims who cannot carry the upfront costs of image removal; and third, to build in or consider specifically how and when victims will receive information and guidance as to what options are available for removing images and when they can seek reimbursement.

It is my understanding that under the proposed legislation, restitution can only be sought for costs incurred up to the time of sentencing. This can be problematic for a few reasons.

One is that if the victim does not have sufficient funds to pay for the professionally assisted removal of an image themselves, then they may not pursue the option, given the risk that there may not be a conviction or that they may not successfully be reimbursed through restitution.

Second, even when a victim may be willing to take that risk, not all victims have the required funds available or own a credit card that they can use temporarily to cover the expense. In other words, if victims do not have the funds to cover the costs initially or the funds to cover the costs for a long enough period to receive a reimbursement, they will not be able to access the same level of service and protection as other victims, thereby creating an unfair balance in the system in terms of the supports offered to victims.

Finally, depending on the length of time it takes the victim to become aware of the option of professional assistance and/or the company to complete an invoice of work, it is likely that some expenses may be incurred only after sentencing. As I understand the bill, victim expenses occurring after sentencing would not be eligible for reimbursement.

While I support the intention of the bill, I would recommend that the committee consider amending this area of Bill C-13 to better meet the needs of all victims, no matter what their financial means, in terms of the support they may receive with respect to the removal of these images.

In cases in which a victim has the means and the option to pursue professionally assisted removal of images and subsequent restitution, ensuring that victims are provided with information concerning these rights and processes far enough in advance will be key. It is not clear to me how and at what point, if any, victims will be advised of their rights to seek a removal order or to file for restitution. I realize that these are details relating to implementation of the bill and that they may be addressed only at that stage; however, I feel it is important to note for members that without sufficient advance knowledge of these rights and options, victims may miss out on an important opportunity to address the damage done and to receive the supports they need and deserve.

Before concluding, I would like to touch briefly on what appear to be the most controversial aspects of the bill, those that relate to investigative tools and the balance of powers and privacy.

Privacy matters and technical investigative tools do not generally fall within my mandate. It is worth noting that among the victims we have spoken to there is no clear consensus on the elements of the bill. I have spoken with victims who very much support further measures to assist law enforcement in their investigation and who find the tools included in this bill to be balanced and necessary. I have also, like you, heard opposing points of view from victims who do not wish to see these elements of the bill proceed, for fear that they will impinge on Canadians' privacy rights.

From my own perspective I would say that there is a balance to be struck, and the dialogue that Canadians are having is a needed and valuable one. Law enforcement officials need the right tools at their disposal to quickly and effectively investigate these cases in order to help reduce cyberbullying in general as well as to protect potential victims. I believe there are some important tools in Bill C-13 to assist law enforcement in their investigation of these matters, and I support the proposed legislative changes that assist in ensuring that the data needed for investigation is preserved. Without it, there can be no evidentiary basis for important cases to proceed.

In conclusion, I support many aspects of Bill C-13 and commend the government for bringing to the table legislation that could assist in addressing cyberbullying incidents as well as provide victims with support in removing their intimate images from circulation. As stated, however, I would recommend that the provisions relating to restitution be amended to ensure that all victims, no matter their financial situation, be entitled to the same rights, opportunities, professional assistance, and reimbursement of costs, and that it be made clear how and when victims will be informed of their rights.

Thank you for your time.

Thank you.

[Monique St. Germain, General Counsel, Canadian Centre for Child Protection]

We would also like to express some thoughts on a few of the criticisms that are being brought forward about this bill.

First, some are expressing concern that the bill will negatively impact youth and result in many more instances of youth being charged and jailed. As an organization dedicated to the protection of all children, we would prefer if this issue could be solved through prevention, education, and awareness. Unfortunately, there will be times when additional tools are required to deter the behaviour, address the harm, and protect current and future victims, who, in many cases, are also children.

What has not yet been mentioned is that if the accused is a young person, the Youth Criminal Justice Act will come into play. That act establishes unique, conceptual, procedural, and substantive safeguards that are specifically designed to protect the interests of young people. There are detailed provisions included within that act that mandate that each person involved with the young person, from police, to the crown, to the judge, must take into account the level of maturity and development of that young person, and consider alternative and restorative mechanisms throughout the entire process.

Secondly, there have been objections raised with this committee about the recklessness standard being too low. The recklessness standard was a specific recommendation of the CCSO cybercrime working group, in its report to the FPT ministers responsible for justice and public safety. We echo what was expressed by David Butt, from KINSA. The recklessness standard, in a criminal context, is not a carelessness standard. It is definitely the same as the law of negligence. We encourage the committee to ensure that any decision made on the issue of recklessness is based on a full appreciation of the way in which recklessness is applied in a criminal law context.

Thirdly, concerns have been raised that Bill C-13 unduly interferes with the rights of Canadians under section 8 of the charter. The bill has two important safeguards: the requirement to apply for a warrant, and judicial discretion to issue or not issue the warrant. Police have a duty to make full, frank, and fair disclosure of all material facts to the issuing judge when they apply for a warrant. In our view, a judge is in the best position to assess the request in the context of those facts. The only part of the bill that does not require a warrant is the preservation section, but preservation is not the same as production. In our view, this bill strikes the appropriate balance between privacy rights and the safety of Canadians.

[Lianna McDonald, Executive Director, Canadian Centre for Child Protection]

Thank you.

Mr. Chairperson and distinguished members of this committee, I thank you very much for giving our agency the opportunity to provide a presentation on Bill C-13.

My name is Lianna McDonald, and I am the executive director of the Canadian Centre for Child Protection, a registered charity providing national programs and services related to the personal safety of all children.

Joining me today are my two colleagues: Ms. Signy Arnason, director of Cybertip.ca; and Monique St. Germain, our general counsel.

Our goal today is to provide insight and support for Bill C-13, legislation that will assist in addressing the non-consensual distribution of intimate images. We will offer some testimony based on our role in operating Cybertip.ca, Canada's national tip line to report the online sexual exploitation of children.

What we have witnessed first-hand and all too often is really the collision between sexual exploitation, technology, and bullying. For almost 30 years our agency has worked closely with families, police, educators, child welfare, industry, and others in child protection. Through operating Cybertip.ca, we have received more than 110,000 reports regarding sexual abuse and exploitation of children. These reports have resulted in police executing more than 550 arrests and removing numerous children from abusive environments.

It has been through this work that we see the most brutal behaviours towards children, everything from the recording of graphic sexual or physical assaults against very young children by predatory adults to teens trying to navigate a social media fallout from a sexual picture or even trying to cope with the aftermath of a sexual crime that has been recorded. These are not easy times to be a young person.

Several years ago we started to see a shift in reports to the tip line. We began to see young people coming in as both the victim and the reporting person. We recognized quickly the need to respond and as a result created a number of prevention resources. We have made these all available, and with a couple of samples that are very relevant to this particular issue.

While these and other resources are important, what we know is that they are not enough. Technology has become a powerful weapon and the ammunition of choice for those who wish to hide behind the protected cloak of anonymity. New technologies make it much easier to harass and to participate in a toxic digital frontier wherein ongoing biases about sexual misconduct collide with unrealistic expectations of adolescent behaviour, all fueled by the misuse of technology.

While certainly we are sophisticated enough not to place the blame solely on technology, we should be rightly committed to understanding its role in the commission of offences and to deciding how we as a nation choose to respond and modernize laws to adequately address new types of criminal behaviour.

The question we raise today is from a child protection point of view. How are we addressing the privacy rights of children? More to the point, how are we addressing the invasion of privacy of those young people who are currently being harmed? When young people are victimized and technology has been used to memorialize the sexual harm, there is often an additional layer of trauma. The past is their present.

For these reasons, we are supporting Bill C-13, and I want to highlight three key points.

First, we firmly believe that the intimate image offence is much more appropriate than a child pornography offence in circumstances in which both the individual depicted in the image and the individual distributing the image are under the age of 18. The child pornography offences were designed and intended to address behaviour and images that are qualitatively different from what we are discussing today.

Second, we support having the offence cover victims of all ages. Our agency receives reports and communications from numerous young adults impacted by this issue. The reputational and sexual harm that results from the non-consensual distribution of an intimate image is significant, regardless of age.

Third, it is important that such images be removed and deleted quickly to minimize the damage to the individual depicted.

We welcome the provisions in the bill that facilitate these actions. We also see tremendous value in enabling potential victims to apply for court-ordered recognizance against a potential distributor in advance of any distribution.

At this time, Signy Arnason, my colleague, will speak quickly to a few stats and facts, and then Monique St. Germain will speak to some criticisms of the bill.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to meeting number 27 of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. As per the orders of the day, we are pursuing our order of reference of Monday, April 28, 2014, for study of Bill C-13, an act to amend the Criminal Code, the Canada Evidence Act, the Competition Act, and the Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters Act.

We have a number of guests here today.

For the committee's information, I understand that there may be bells during this time. I have let the witnesses know that if there are bells, we will run over to vote and will come back to make sure that they get on the record with their 10 minutes.

Here is one other piece of information before we go on. I personally contacted Facebook and invited them to show either on Tuesday, which is when we have them scheduled, or Thursday of next week. We have not heard back whether they are taking us up on the invitation. We sent them copies of the motion from this committee from last time.

We were expecting Global News to be here, but they are not set up. As the rules state, there are no pictures once the gavel has been struck.

We are going to begin with our 10-minute presentations. We have the Canadian Centre for Child Protection with us today. We have the Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime. As an individual, Mr. Michael Geist is here. We also have the Canadian Association of University Teachers.

To make sure we move along quickly, let's have the Canadian Centre for Child Protection begin.

Ms. McDonald, you are taking the lead.

Extension of Sitting Hours

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Mr. Speaker, what an odd debate. I listened with interest to the speech by the hon. member for Burlington. He is the chair of the committee and I am the vice-chair.

I found some of his statements peculiar. The fundamental problem with the motion presently before the House is not the fact of staying until midnight. The NDP team has a reputation for hard work. Anyone who wants to entertain themselves by visiting my Facebook page would see that the people of Gatineau are actually advising me to slow down because they are worried about my health. Perhaps they are right, considering the flu I have at the moment. We in the NDP work very hard. A number of bills, for example, are before the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, so that they can be debated in the House or in committee. It is not the work we are afraid of.

The cat is out of the bag. There are issues that our Conservative friends want to talk about, and they want to speak about them at length. Had I been asked, I would have said—before they even rose to speak—that I expected to see a great many Conservatives rise to speak in the House about Bill C-32. Why? Because it is an opportunity for the Conservatives to give Canadians the impression that they have been dealing with this issue—and this issue alone—for weeks, months and even years. They are the ones who stand up for victims. We are all deadbeats and have washed our hands of the problem. That is not true, though. Now, when workers’ rights were at stake, the Conservatives wanted to cut debate short.

The member said that nine bills had been passed and that he is embarrassed to return to Burlington. What I would say to him is that he is absolutely right to be embarrassed; the Conservatives did nothing with their majority aside from getting nine bills passed, and they had to resort to time allocation motions to ram the bills through. There is something not quite right with this government. The Conservatives are averse to debate. They do not like hearing opinions that do not coincide with their own. When the Conservatives too often hear something they disagree with, a red light suddenly goes on. We have had to debate many a time allocation motion. I do not know how many times I have taken part in debates in the House or how many speeches I have made expressing my dissatisfaction with the fact that we have been stripped of our right to speak.

The Conservatives made mention of Bill C-13. I am fortunate to be the NDP justice critic and to have had the opportunity to voice my opinion regarding this omnibus bill, right after the minister spoke. This is no small bill; on the contrary, it is approximately 50 pages long and has an impact on numerous other pieces of legislation. It does address the issue of cyberbullying, as the government likes to point out, but it goes much farther, so far that the committee is being flooded with requests for meetings. We hear all manner of experts warning us to be careful. That is what is missing in the House.

The Senate is referred to as a chamber of sober second thought, but we were not elected to this place in order to abdicate our duty to think. Members have a responsibility to be present in the House to voice and stand up for the opinions of their constituents. Canadians expect us to go about our work in an intelligent and thoughtful manner, to take the time to properly analyze bills. I am in favour of debating this bill in the House and referring it to committee for further consideration. More often than not, bills are analyzed at lightening speed.

The Conservatives will say that the House was given an opportunity to debate Bill C-13, the bill on cyberbullying, and thank God, especially given the time allocation motion that was foisted upon us so as to ram the bill through to committee.

Suddenly, things became urgent. Why urgent after the death of Rehtaeh Parsons, and yet not after the death of Amanda Todd? That was a question a witness asked us. The notion that the government would somehow need to act urgently does not really cut it with me; these things are more politically driven than they are concrete. It is a bit worrisome.

Bill C-13 is large and contains a number of disturbing provisions. When considered alongside the remarks made by the Conservative committee members, it leads me to believe that the Conservatives will not be very receptive to the many amendments proposed by expert witnesses. If past events are any indication, I am not very optimistic. Still, I am an optimistic woman by nature.

In light of this, I have trouble believing it when the government tells us, hand on heart, that its goal is to work harder. Working harder, for a Conservative, does not necessarily mean working more effectively and harder. It simply means that members end up working until midnight in order to discuss all the bills before the House, including those bills that have not been studied for an eternity.

For example, there is Bill C-2 on safe injection sites; Bill C-3 on marine transportation; Bill C-6, which implements the Convention on Cluster Munitions; Bill C-8 on counterfeit products; and Bill C-10 on contraband tobacco, which we finished studying in committee such a long time ago that I will have to reread all my material. Indeed, since then, we have studied so many other topics that I have almost had enough time to forget all about it. We will resume studying this bill at report stage. We could have covered it a long time ago. I have been waiting for some time for this stage to be completed in the House. Everything will have to be done over. It is a colossal waste of time for everyone concerned. There is also Bill C-11 on the hiring of injured veterans. If there is a category of people in our society who have huge needs, it certainly is our veterans.

Suddenly, the Conservatives are going to try and push all this through at once. The member for Burlington has done the math when it comes to the number of hours, and the government is going to try and give us a few hours for each bill. Then the government turns around and calls itself a champion of hard work. Well done, champion.

There is also Bill C-17, Vanessa’s law, about drug safety, an extremely important bill that must be debated; Bill C-18, concerning farm regulations; and Bill C-20, concerning the Canada-Honduras agreement, which is at report stage. I no longer even remember when I gave my last speech on that subject. It has already been a heck of a long time. The Conservatives have been in no rush, but all of a sudden, they are in a rush.

We will examine Bill C-21, concerning red tape for small businesses. The junior Minister of Tourism is travelling all over Canada to talk about the importance of eliminating red tape everywhere, while this bill is stuck in some office or other. It could have been debated a long time ago.

There is Bill C-22, concerning oil, gas and nuclear liability, and Bill C-24, concerning the Citizenship Act. These are bills that are announced to us with great fanfare at big press conferences, but then they stagnate and we do not see them again.

There is Bill C-26, about sexual predators. I expected that one would move quickly, because the Conservatives told us we had to work on this issue quickly. There is also Bill C-27, about hiring veterans in the public service. It is extremely important, I repeat, because it concerns a category of people in our society who have needs that are just as important.

Then there is Bill C-32, about the victims bill of rights. I think it is the reason why this government’s Motion No. 10 has no credibility at all. For a full year, I was treated to one press conference after another. If it was not the Prime Minister, it was the Minister of Justice with his senator from the other side. They told us they were going to work very hard, listen, set up panels and do everything we could wish for, and then they brought forth a charter that was denounced by many people, starting with victims, because they expected a lot more. That may be why the Conservatives kept their charter hidden for some time.

Apart from the minister, one Liberal and myself, no one has yet spoken on this subject. I am going to make a wager with my colleagues in the House. I expect there will be a time allocation motion on this. The Conservatives are going to rend their garments and plead that it is urgent, that it is extremely important and that it must be passed immediately, or the opposite will happen, because they will want to talk to us about it for hours on end. It becomes part of their narrative.

Every Conservative member wants to go back to their riding and have their householder and the excerpt from their speech in the House, which they made to show that they are protecting victims’ rights.

In the NDP, we want to talk about important issues and show that we could do even better than Bill C-32, specifically by amending it. We want to talk about the proposals made by the federal ombudsman for victims of crime. In fact, Bill C-32 does not contain a large percentage of her recommendations. A balance has to be struck. For every Conservative who speaks, the New Democrats will also speak.

When we want to talk about something, it is not important. That is the message we constantly get in the House, and, perhaps because we are approaching the end of the session, it is becoming extremely annoying, to put it mildly and stay within the bounds of parliamentary language.

It is appalling to see that people who are elected to represent the residents of their riding are silenced as often as we are by this government. We get told they are not interested. I have also heard the member for Burlington say—and I am going to talk to him about it again, in fact, at the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights—that sometimes we just need to go and read because members all read pretty much the same thing.

If the people of Gatineau think the same thing as the people of Laval, I think it is important that this be pointed out. Who has more right than whom to speak in the House on a particular bill? There is something indecent about wanting to constantly silence people.

Sometimes, I tell the members opposite that they should stop imposing time allocation motions and motions to get things done, as they like to say. I very much liked the expression my colleague used yesterday, when he talked about motions that are “a licence for laziness”.

This is unpleasant. If they had taken the time spent on debating those motions and instead used the time to finish the debate on the bill that they were trying to stop from being debated, we would probably have finished. The fact is that not all members in the NDP caucus or the Liberal Party or the Green Party or whatever colour you like necessarily wish to speak.

However, if the government limits the speaking time of a single member who wishes to speak, we cannot claim to be living in a democratic system. That is what is known as the tyranny of the majority. I believe we have to stand up against that, loud and clear. Every time that happens here, we are going to speak out against it, in every way possible.

We are told that we could perhaps go faster. I listened to the Minister of Foreign Affairs say that, and what he said made sense, in some respects. The way that Manitoba and the NDP government operate makes sense. Those consensus-based approaches make sense.

Quebec managed to pass a bill on a very sensitive issue, end-of-life care, with the agreement of all parties. There was an election, and the members all agreed to reinstate the bill once the election was over. That is being discussed.

The problem here is that the people on the Conservative benches are not talking to the opposition parties. All they talk about is strategies. We keep wondering who is going to pull a fast one on us. They use roundabout tactics such as counting how many MPs are in the House, catching them off guard, and forcing a party leader to go testify before a committee. This is unprecedented—and they say they are democratic.

Then the Conservatives get all offended when we say that Motion No. 10 is total nonsense. This is not about giving us more time. This is about taking all of the bills—there are more on the agenda than have already been passed, and that took much longer than the amount of time we have between now and June 20—and making us think they are giving us more time. They are not giving us a thing. I do not believe in Conservative gifts, and nobody in Canada should believe in any Conservative gift whatsoever.

The truth is that the Conservatives are going to shove their agenda down our throats because they could not get through it in a mature, parliamentary, by-the-rules way. They could have said that the House leaders would discuss it and try to see if some of the bills were more palatable or if we could agree to pass some of them more quickly. Then the real committee work could have started.

It is true, for Bill C-13, we had a lot of witnesses. However, I am not yet ready to give a seal of approval to the government in power, indicating that the bill has been studied in depth, because we still have the entire amendment stage. I believe that what the other side wants to accept is under so much remote control that the committee is not really doing the work. Instead, the higher-ups are dictating to our colleagues opposite what they have to do, while at the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, we are trying to bring out the best in the bill.

I have not even mentioned the upcoming Bill C-35, dealing with service animals. Bill S-2 deals with statutory instruments and may not seem like much. However, it is a very significant bill that is going to change an entire way of doing things in terms of regulations. We know that regulations have an impact on the everyday lives of our fellow Canadians in all kinds of areas: the environment, transportation, health and what have you. This is a real concern. I bet that we will analyze it very quickly. That concerns me.

The fact that we are extending our hours until midnight does not encourage any belief on my part that we will be having constructive debates followed by more productive work in committee. That is why the Conservatives have this problem with credibility. We are not the only ones saying so. When their measures are challenged in court, the Conservatives get slammed.

I will take a deep breath and take a little time to say that perhaps we should review our way of doing things. Our friends in the House may not know this, but the bill on prostitution may well be coming our way next week. We hear whispering in the corridors that the government wants the bill passed. It is huge, though, since it comes as a response to a Supreme Court of Canada decision. Everyone in the House knows that passing the bill will not be easy because there are people on all sides of that issue. I would bet that we are going to have just a few hours of debate before they pitch it—to put it very nicely—to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. We can expect a hot and heavy summer on that one.

Extending the sitting hours until midnight just to work harder is one more tactic that is just like their time allocation motions, closure motions and any other kind of motion they can think of. It is part of the Conservatives' bag of undemocratic tricks. They will force these tricks on the House, but not on themselves, as ministers. Based on how the motion is written, I think it will be quite humourous. It will be interesting to see how many of them will be here in the House to happily participate in the debates on all the topics I mentioned, instead of at a cocktail party. That is why it is extremely important that we amend this motion.

Seconded by the hon. member for LaSalle—Émard, I move:

That the motion be amended by deleting all the words after the word “place” and substituting the following:

(b) when a recorded division is demanded in respect of a debatable motion, including any division arising as a consequence of the application of Standing Order 61(2), but not including any division in relation to the Business of Supply, Private Members’ Business, or arising as a consequence of an order made pursuant to Standing Order 57,

(i) before 5:30 p.m. on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday, it shall stand deferred until the time immediately before the time provided for Private Members’ Business at that day’s sitting,

(ii) after 5:30 p.m. on a Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday, it shall stand deferred until the time immediately before the time provided for Private Members’ Business at the next day’s sitting,

(iii) after 5:30 p.m. on a Thursday, or at any time on a Friday, it shall stand deferred until 6:30 p.m. on the following Monday.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, thank you for the time.

I want to speak about why it is important we do this. I have been here eight years. Every year we get a calendar printed in the fall that indicates with little stars the days we can have extended hours. Extended hours are not new. This year, I will admit, we are doing extended hours about a week prior to when it normally would have happened. It is a normal process, a normal way of doing business in this House that I have experienced eight times.

My understanding is it was the process prior to that. In fact, there were years in the past when extended hours took place in the evenings throughout the year, not just at the end of the session. However, things have changed and this is a normal way of proceeding so we can get some of the work done we need to do.

We have added approximately 20 hours of opportunity for debate per week. That is 20 hours, so 40 members of Parliament could make 20-minute speeches with 10 minutes of questions and comments. Often people split their time. Technically we could get as many as 40 people of the 308, or whatever there is, of us at this particular time. There are by-elections going. That would be 40 more opportunities to get up and say what the constituents we represent feel about a particular issue or about a particular bill.

We often get complaints that there is not enough time and that more members from whatever party in the opposition want to speak. This motion provides that opportunity for them to speak.

I would be the first to agree that likely at 11:30 p.m. there would not be a lot of people in the House. Some people would have said their piece and are not interested in talking about whatever issue is before the House, but there is opportunity for other members of Parliament to say their piece. That is what extended hours do. They provide opportunity for as many as 40 members a week. If we do it for three weeks, that is 120 more spots, so almost half the House would be able to speak in those extended hours.

That does not mean we are not meeting during the day, that we are still not opening at 10 and having debate all day long with a break for question period, routine proceedings, and private members' hour. All that opportunity is still there.

We are not limiting debate. We are increasing debate. It is important, in my view. We need to do this. When I go back to my constituency and tell the folks at the local riding association that we passed nine bills, people say to me, “That's it? What did you do the rest of the time?”

I did research on how many hours we spend on this. I think there is a better way of doing it more efficiently and effectively, and I may speak to that. We need to use our time efficiently and effectively to get changes made. Of the 18 bills that we have standing, a lot of them have not even got to committee yet, so all we need to do is move them on to committee.

Our committee right now is dealing with Bill C-13. We have had excellent panels come before us to talk about that bill. We have two more weeks of analyzing that bill, and I think it is an excellent demonstration of why it is important to get things out of the House. Each party has its say, a number of members put on the record their position and what they would like to see changed or why they support the bill, and then it goes to committee for a real discussion with debate. I think we should be doing that much faster, and maybe even providing more time for that at committee, but that does not work with the process we have here.

We are going to debate a private member's bill later tonight that talks about some changes in how we operate. It was brought forward by the member for Wellington—Halton Hills. There is some real opportunity for further change. Many of us spend hours and hours having staff members change our schedules because we have to get coverage for this and we are here and we have to give a speech at committee meetings, so we have to have someone cover us here. I do not know what it is like on the opposition benches, but I know what it is like on our side of the House.

There should be a review of how we operate here. Maybe we should have all our committee meetings in the morning with the House not sitting in the morning. Members would not be missing coverage or House duty because House duty would not start. Maybe we should do that. Maybe we should start debate on different items after question period. Maybe we should have all the votes after question period. I know this motion does that, but if we were a corporation we would not be operating this way. It is not efficient. It is not effective and it does not produce results as the smart people in the chamber could do.

My suggestion is that the House leaders from all sides look at why we need to bring the system of how we operate into the 20th century, maybe even the 21st century. It has been a traditional way of doing things. I think it is time to look at all those issues.

People will ask why we need to extend. As chair of the justice committee I will give one perfect example of why we need this time. The Minister of Justice introduced the victims bill of rights, a very important bill to the House. Tonight we will start debating that issue even further. In this case, there are many members of Parliament who would like to speak to the bill because it would make some fundamental changes to how we treat victims of crime in this country. It is appropriate that it is on the agenda for this evening and it gives us an opportunity for many more members to speak to it because we have extended the hours.

I would like to see the bill go to committee. It is still at second reading. I fully understand why so many members would like to speak to it. Extended hours provide that opportunity to do. Then I hope it will come to a vote before we rise for the summer. That would provide the justice committee with an opportunity to get ready over the summer for this very important bill, to make sure we invite the right number of witnesses. A relatively large list of people would like to come and talk on what could be improved, what they like about the bill. I do not know if people understand there are only nine weeks in the fall session between September until we leave at Christmastime. Nine weeks is not a lot of time. It does not provide much opportunity for members to speak to this fundamental bill.

We also will deal with Bill C-24 this week. Many members in the House would like to speak to strengthening the Citizenship Act. There are some fundamental changes in it. If we do not get it done and sent to committee before we leave, we basically will have to start over again in September. People now are engaged in the topic and understand what is going on. There is debate in the House and then the summer comes. Members go back and work in their ridings all summer and they have to get geared up again when they come back here.

I think it is important that we get that bill through, and there are a number of other bills. The opposition finance critic is at committee tonight dealing with the implementation bill, which is a significant bill. There is a lot of discussion about what is happening with that.

We need to be able to move forward, and there is nothing wrong with working late. I heard from the leader of the Green Party and the previous speaker. I do not think there is a lot of opposition to working late on these particular items because it does provide opportunity.

We have heard a little on who can bring forward certain motions, and the opposition is not happy about that. However, the whole concept of adding hours is to make the place a little more efficient and not bogged down with procedural motions, because that is what slows us down here.

There is a place for procedure. As chair of the justice committee, I understand that there needs to be procedure and it can move efficiently and effectively. Those rules are in place for a purpose, and I believe they have a role to play here, but we need to move forward.

There are nine bills, and to be frank about it, there are 18 bills still on the order paper from the government now. We have nine weeks in the fall and then we come to the last session before we break in 2015, and we know we will not be coming back before an election. We do not have a lot of time left from the government's perspective to get the legislation through the House, through the Senate, to royal assent, and into law. Once it becomes law, it then takes time to implement.

In Ontario, I talk to a grade 5 civics class and a grade 10 civics class. They ask how long it takes to get a law through. I am honest with them. I tell them that the reality is it takes at least a year. Some bills are a little faster than others, but in a normal process, from the start when a minister introduces it in the House to royal assent, it is approximately a year. Then, it depends on what kind of law it is, but let us say it is on the Criminal Code, it takes a while for it to get implemented. Also, there are often regulations in other areas that have to be added before it actually comes into force. It is a slow process to begin with.

With the process we have here, in my view, as a city councillor who advocated for the council to go from 17 to 7 for improved efficiency and effectiveness of the councillors, I think we can do a much better job here in the House of Commons for efficiency and effectiveness. We need to look at that in the future, but in the meantime, extended hours help us get our legislation through this House.

Justice

[Stephen Harper, Conservative, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we cannot protect our children from cyberbullying unless the police have the necessary powers to deal with such cases. That is what Bill C-13 does, and that is why I encourage the NDP to support our children.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much.

Thank you panel for coming. We've had some very good panels for Bill C-13 and today's testimony was excellent. I want to thank each and every one of you.

Just as a reminder, we're meeting on Thursday morning at Queen Street. We have Thursday and then next week to meet on this, and then we'll do clause by clause the week after that.

Thank you very much.

The meeting is adjourned.

[Marian K. Brown]

Yes. It addresses seizure but also retention of personal information. That falls under the privacy acts of all the provinces, as well as the federal Privacy Act. All police agencies are public bodies that are subject to those privacy acts. So we don't see that it could be anything other than a nationwide and interjurisdictional effort to address the impact of retention and use of personal information by law enforcement agencies.

We're pushing the envelope here but the point is, as I said in my introduction, that as good as you make Bill C-13, it is not going to solve all of the concerns that we face in this confrontation of law and technology.