Bill C-21 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Customs Act

This enactment amends the Customs Act to authorize the Canada Border Services Agency to collect, from prescribed persons and prescribed sources, personal information on all persons who are leaving or have left Canada. It also amends the Act to authorize an officer, as defined in that Act, to require that goods that are to be exported from Canada are to be reported despite any exemption under that Act. In addition, it amends the Act to provide officers with the power to examine any goods that are to be exported. Finally, it amends the Act to authorize the disclosure of information collected under the Customs Act to an official of the Department of Employment and Social Development for the purposes of administering or enforcing the Old Age Security Act.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for being here today, Chief Benedict. I do want to ask you about Bill C-21, but I read in Cornwall's main daily newspaper something you said in early 2017 that I thought was very interesting and important. You said:

We had the Minister of Indigenous Affairs visit our territory not only once, but twice in 2016. We’ve built a number of relationships with the government we want to maintain. It improves the profile of our community not only to the federal government, but to the communities around us. These are opportunities that will continue to be a priority to myself and our council moving forward.

Can you expand on that comment? I think it's very important.

[Jean-Pierre Fortin]

We are, but until we get to see the refined details of Bill C-21, I'm not in a position to make more comments.

As I mentioned, I do have concerns about the level of work that it will require. I keep thinking that if we need to actually check not only cars, but everything that may leave Canada, particularly certain goods—drugs could be one of them—we want to make sure that we have enough people to do those inspections. Right now, we don't.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you.

My next question is for both of you. Unlike many witnesses who come before committees, neither one of you, really, is answerable to a government department. You're not bureaucrats, necessarily. I'm going to ask you this because I asked the last witnesses and got a very measured response. I'm expecting something different today.

We will be going through Bill C-21. Generally we all support this particular legislation, because we think it has some value for us as Canadians. We will be going through clause-by-clause relatively soon. This is your opportunity to tell us where you would make changes, which is really why you're here. Where should there be clarification? Where would you make adjustments to the language that's here now to help us do the responsibility of this committee well?

[Jean-Pierre Fortin]

Again, the thing is that if we're not getting the proper level of resources.... It's that balance between the facilitation of the public versus the national security that could be compromised. Again, I think everybody around this table understands the level of importance of what the officers are doing to maintain the integrity of our borders and the security of Canadians.

What we've been saying since 2016, and as a result of the DRAP initiative, is that there are a lot of people who have not been replaced. The way the government had proceeded was that people who were leaving were not automatically being replaced, to the point that, right now, we're flying in people. Because of what happened last summer with the asylum seekers, officers were on travel status from across the country, from B.C. and from the Prairies. We're saying that the core amount of officers is too low right now to have more duties.

I've been pointing out things like the exports. We don't pay that much attention right now, but if the intent of Bill C-21 is for our officers to spend more time and actually search travellers or even companies that are leaving the country to make sure that the goods in their possession are okay, that's a concern that I have. Even though the minister actually highlighted the fact that this is mostly electronic, I disagree with that. It will be more work for our officers, and the level of officers right now is way too low in Canada.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to everyone for your attendance today.

Mr. Fortin, I have just a couple of questions that I want to get some clarity on. With Bill C-21, there are going to be some adjustments to expectations for people in business. Do you expect there to be any obstacles to or resistance from individuals who are travelling or businesses who are in the business of exporting goods?

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Perfect.

My next question is about the regulatory changes. Their scope in Bill C-21 is fairly broad.

Proposed subclause 92(2) in clause 2 of Bill C-21 states:

… (a) prescribing the sources from which the information may be collected;

(b) respecting the circumstances in which the information may be collected; and

(c) respecting the time within which and the manner in which the information may be collected.

A similar proposal is set out in proposed subclause 93(5).

Do you think this is something that would require a little more precision or some kind of protection? These are publicly posted changes, but we know that regulatory changes are not subject to the same kind of debate as bills.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

It is sometimes dangerous in politics to discuss hypothetical situations. However, let's take a case where the information would go to CSIS, for instance, and there would be programs in place with the Five Eyes allies, including the United States. Would it be possible to have a broader sharing than what is explicitly set out in Bill C-21?

[Daniel Therrien]

Yes, the information collected under Bill C-21 on people leaving Canada could very possibly be shared through the measures established under Bill C-51.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Therrien, based on your interpretation of Bill C-21, does the information-sharing program that was implemented under the former Bill C-51 apply to the data collected at the border?

[Daniel Therrien]

The entry/exit program needs to be examined from a broader historical perspective.

It is important to remember that in the past, democratic countries did not collect information on the exits of their citizens. This was related to the freedom of movement of citizens, and the government didn't control this kind of activity.

Following the events in September 2001, several countries imposed the collection of information or gathered information for border management and national security purposes. Canada was among the last to do so.

To date, the information collected has focused on non-Canadians for border management and national security purposes. According to the Bill C-21, the gathering of information and the sharing of information will also apply to citizens.

It is important to understand that we are crossing a boundary. Historically, democratic countries did not collect this kind of information about their citizens. However, things have changed as a result of the events in September 2001, and it is now a widespread practice that also aims to ensure the integrity of social programs. We are moving in this direction.

Given the importance of combatting fraud involving these programs, and the relatively limited and non-sensitive nature of the information, this seems reasonable. However, it must be understood that this evolution in the history of democratic countries has occurred.

[Jean-Pierre Fortin]

Absolutely. In our opinion, just having to start entering more data will affect our work. The critical thing, you know, is to be efficient and not to increase wait times. However, if we have to do more exit processing and pay more specific attention to the goods bound for departure, that clearly cannot be done electronically. We will need more officers.

You mentioned what happened last summer. Clearly, since 2016, front-line officers have been spending their time telling us that they do not have enough resources. It’s already the case now, so imagine what will happen if the officers' workload increases.

In my opening presentation, I said that 1,200 of our positions have been eliminated. That is huge. In itself, Bill C-21 will increase security, without doubt. However, it is certain that we will need resources to implement the bill properly. At the moment, I really doubt that we have the resources we need.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Okay.

Earlier, you talked a little about the lack of resources. This summer, we had a major problem with illegal migrants crossing the border at Saint-Bernard-de-Lacolle and at a spot in Manitoba.

Do you feel that the new rules in Bill C-21 is going to increase your workload considerably? The minister told us that it would actually all be done electronically and that there would be no real impact on the officers’ actual work. Do you think that the bill will have a major effect on your work every day?

[Jean-Pierre Fortin]

We are not yet clear on the speed of the response after Bill C-21 goes into effect. Will it really happen in real time? That would be the ideal, between you and me.

What is for sure is that, at the moment, it takes a certain amount of time. We have been told that it is also a matter of 15 minutes.

[Jean-Pierre Fortin]

Certainly, the ability to obtain more information increases the responsibilities. Earlier, when I was replying to your colleague Mr. Picard, I said that the bill would allow us to have a clearer history on people, to focus on the higher risk people and to let the lower risk people go on their way. As things stand, I can tell you that that is going to help. Given its objective, Bill C-21 is going to allow that information to be collected more efficiently.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

Mr. Fortin, first let me thank you for addressing some points in your opening presentation. You introduced a number of very specific items that will be useful for the committee and that raise some very good questions.

Can you tell me this to start with? For border services, what is the biggest security feature in Bill C-21? What will really happen as a result, in terms of Canada's security?