Bill C-10 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Broadcasting Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts

This enactment amends the Broadcasting Act to, among other things,
(a) add online undertakings — undertakings for the transmission or retransmission of programs over the Internet — as a distinct class of broadcasting undertakings;
(b) update the broadcasting policy for Canada set out in section 3 of that Act by, among other things, providing that the Canadian broadcasting system should serve the needs and interests of all Canadians — including Canadians from racialized communities and Canadians of diverse ethnocultural backgrounds — and should provide opportunities for Indigenous persons, programming that reflects Indigenous cultures and that is in Indigenous languages, and programming that is accessible without barriers to persons with disabilities;
(c) specify that the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission (the “Commission”) must regulate and supervise the Canadian broadcasting system in a manner that
(i) takes into account the different characteristics of Indigenous language broadcasting and the different conditions under which broadcasting undertakings that provide Indigenous language programming operate,
(ii) is fair and equitable as between broadcasting undertakings providing similar services,
(iii) facilitates the provision of programs that are accessible without barriers to persons with disabilities, and
(iv) takes into account the variety of broadcasting undertakings to which that Act applies and avoids imposing obligations on a class of broadcasting undertakings if doing so will not contribute in a material manner to the implementation of the broadcasting policy;
(d) amend the procedure relating to the issuance by the Governor in Council of policy directions to the Commission;
(e) replace the Commission’s power to impose conditions on a licence with a power to make orders imposing conditions on the carrying on of broadcasting undertakings;
(f) provide the Commission with the power to require that persons carrying on broadcasting undertakings make expenditures to support the Canadian broadcasting system;
(g) authorize the Commission to provide information to the Minister responsible for that Act, the Chief Statistician of Canada and the Commissioner of Competition, and set out in that Act a process by which a person who submits certain types of information to the Commission may designate the information as confidential;
(h) amend the procedure by which the Governor in Council may, under section 28 of that Act, set aside a decision of the Commission to issue, amend or renew a licence or refer such a decision back to the Commission for reconsideration and hearing;
(i) specify that a person shall not carry on a broadcasting undertaking, other than an online undertaking, unless they do so in accordance with a licence or they are exempt from the requirement to hold a licence;
(j) harmonize the punishments for offences under Part II of that Act and clarify that a due diligence defence applies to the existing offences set out in that Act; and
(k) allow for the imposition of administrative monetary penalties for violations of certain provisions of that Act or of the Accessible Canada Act.
The enactment also makes related and consequential amendments to other Acts.

[Jérôme Payette]

Yes, but our proposal is clear: remove subsection 2(2.1) and section 4.1 of Bill C-10 regarding social media.

We feel that there's a desire to protect social media. We feel that we need to protect our culture and Canadians. Bill C-10 really doesn't focus enough on social media. It focuses on the process of putting content online to make that content stand out. The important thing is the content, not how it's put online. For example, music that ends up on Spotify goes through a distributor. Music that goes on YouTube is put online by a record company, by an artist. Since the content is uploaded directly to the platform, the record company isn't accountable and the content isn't regulated.

Spotify carried out a pilot project, but didn't follow up on it, to allow record companies to upload their music directly to the service. If Bill C-10 were passed, the content put online would no longer be regulated. This leaves a gaping hole in the bill that allows companies to swoop in and avoid the enforcement of the legislation altogether.

Social media is fundamental to the future of our music. YouTube is the most prominent platform right now and it isn't subject to the legislation. TikTok and Triller are great places to discover music. Young people form their musical tastes for decades on these platforms. The comments that I heard in my conversations with officials were really disappointing. The officials made technical arguments, which don't hold water.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

To the Professional Music Publishers' Association, you're right on about YouTube. It is not regulated in Bill C-10, and everybody is using YouTube. We are going to have an issue. As you pointed out, correctly, this should be regulated and it's not.

Is there an amendment or something that you would like to bring forward later? As you know, we all, even as MPs, use YouTube. It not being regulated is an issue with Bill C-10.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to begin by thanking the witnesses for being with us today. It's always very interesting to hear what they have to say.

Mr. Payette, thank you for your opening remarks. I don't want to make a pun or a lame connection to your organization, but it was music to my ears.

I'd like to ask you a very simple question, one you could probably answer at length. Could you tell us the importance of Bill C-10 for the future of francophone music?

[Alex Freedman]

It's a definition of what we do. It's a recognition that we play a critical role in terms of promoting multilingualism and a variety of different aspects of the Broadcasting Act. There are a number of important goals set out in C-10 that we support wholeheartedly, such as the inclusion of indigenous broadcasters. Again, we're really one of the only places where indigenous languages are heard in these communities. We're one of the only places where they have a chance to get on the air.

We are not recognized within the Broadcasting Act. We see the Yale report come through with nothing but a scant mention of the role of community broadcasters.

The fact that we're there puts us in a position to have conversations with the CRTC about making sure we get funding for these roles and making sure we have a place at the table. That's what is really critical.

[Jérôme Payette]

Our members administer musical works that are used in video games, but they are excluded from Bill C-10, as I understand it. So that's not something we wanted to highlight today.

[Jérôme Payette, Executive Director, Professional Music Publishers' Association]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to appear before you to discuss this bill, which will be crucial to the future of our culture.

The Professional Music Publishers' Association, or PMPA, represents music publishers in Quebec and French-speaking Canada. Our members control 830 publishing houses with approximately 400,000 musical works.

As partners of songwriters and composers, music publishers support the creation of musical works, and promote and administer them. Publishers are involved in everything from paper scores to online music services to concerts, video games and audiovisual products.

I'd like to mention that our association is a member of the Coalition for the Diversity of Cultural Expressions, or CDCE, and supports its proposed amendments to Bill C-10.

I'm testifying at the end of the process, and many of the topics that are important to us have already been discussed with you. So I will keep that in mind as I speak.

The bill needs to be amended to meet cultural objectives, and it must be passed quickly.

Canada's broadcasting legislation has been pursuing much the same objective for nearly 100 years, namely, that citizens have access to our content to preserve our identity and culture.

To avoid global cultural standardization, we must think globally and act locally. Canada must protect the diversity of its cultural expressions, especially francophone diversity. To take our place in the world, we have to have our own identity and a flourishing culture.

In the past, Canada has taken bold steps, such as the introduction of radio quotas, and these measures have been copied around the world. I invite you to continue this tradition, whose objectives are as important as ever. We need you to work together to ensure that a bill that supports our culture is passed quickly.

We must level the playing field and not deregulate.

The current legislative and regulatory system exists because market forces can't guarantee the survival of Canadian culture, particularly francophone culture. This is largely a demographic problem, in addition to the fact that we're just north of the country that exports the most culture. This reality hasn't changed because new technologies have emerged; on the contrary, it's gotten worse.

Our cultural industries are fragile; they have emerged through a series of measures, including the Broadcasting Act. If the legislative environment is no longer favourable to us, our cultural industries could disappear or no longer reach Canadians.

The current situation is unfair to conventional broadcasters, that's true. However, regulatory relief would not allow them to recover the advertising revenues and listeners they have lost to online broadcasters. The level of regulation imposed on conventional broadcasters has nothing to do with the changing habits of Canadians.

Foreign companies must be encouraged to contribute to our culture and identity, as conventional broadcasters do. We have to level up. Not doing so would be tantamount to deregulating, which would be tragic for our culture.

We need to be visionary and not exclude social media from the act.

I listened carefully to the testimony of the Minister and the officials who appeared before you on March 8, and I'm not at all reassured. To avoid becoming obsolete as soon as it is passed, the act must apply to all companies that broadcast professional cultural content, without exception.

YouTube is the most popular online music service in Canada, and I'm talking about YouTube, not YouTube Music, which should be distinguished. Under the current provisions of Bill C-10, Spotify and QUB musique would be regulated for the broadcast of a song, while YouTube would not be regulated for the broadcast of the same song, which would be totally unfair.

The term “user-generated content” is imprecise, and Bill C-10 attempts to define a risky uploading process. The content is important, not the process of putting it online. The act must be neutral with respect to technological processes.

Under the wording of Bill C-10, a song or video that is posted online by industry professionals or self-produced professional artists would be exempt from the act. Contrary to what Mr. Ripley told you, distinguishing professional cultural content from amateur video is not difficult. YouTube already distinguishes professional music content from its entire repertoire using metadata.

I would like to point out that the means of broadcasting will continue to evolve, as will the business models, and that people will continue to listen to music and watch videos. The fundamental question is, will people still take in our culture? You have to make sure the answer is yes.

In conclusion, we need all of you to work together to amend and pass a new Bill C-10 that, by levelling the playing field, will establish fair obligations for all companies operating in Canada. This will allow us to avoid destroying the cultural sector, particularly the music sector. Our culture needs you.

Thank you. I will be happy to answer any questions you may have.

[Scott Hutton]

Mr. Champoux, these are questions we are constantly asking ourselves. I think the message our chair is trying to send you is that we are lagging behind legislative changes that may occur.

The radio and music industry in Canada, be it English or French, is in trouble. We've decided to proceed with our study, as we have with many of our other key issues. The day before yesterday, we published a notice of consultation on indigenous broadcasting. We're also looking at the renewal of CBC/Radio–Canada's licences, but we can't really talk about that. These are all important issues that we need to continue to work on.

We need to make sure that the framework we're working on right now respects the boundaries we have now. It's clear that your decisions related to the legislative changes proposed in Bill C-10 are going to have a great deal of influence on the next steps in our work. However, we owe it to ourselves to move forward and modernize these environments by making structural changes. When we saw the effects of the pandemic, it was impossible to ignore them. Our work plan had to move forward.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. This will be quick.

Mr. Scott, the call for comments that the CRTC issued on the commercial radio policy framework ends on Monday. But this committee is in the process of conducting a review of the Broadcasting Act.

Is it not your impression that the CRTC's study on commercial radio practices is a little premature and, before beginning such a study, you should have waited until after the parliamentary process with Bill C-10?

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

I know I am running out of time, but I want to thank you for your time today. I look forward to hearing back about how the consultations go, assuming Bill C-10 goes forward.

Mr. Chair, I will pass it back to you.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for joining us today. It has been very interesting to hear your responses. Of course, we all have a great deal of interest in the work you're doing and in the implications of Bill C-10 on your work.

As everyone knows, Bill C-10, if passed, would require online businesses, both foreign and Canadian, to contribute financially to the Canadian broadcasting system to support creators and producers of Canadian content.

What are some of the ways you think companies will try to get around their future spending or royalty obligations, and what do you think you can do to prevent that from happening?

[Ian Scott]

At the moment, we do not have the tools we need. However, I feel that Bill C-10 will give them to us.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I would like to bring up another matter.

At their recent appearance before the committee, the Minister and the officials from the Department of Canadian Heritage stated that, according to Bill C-10, social media will be regulated. However, other players in the field expressed their concern, because they find that social media are actually excluded from Bill C-10. I am thinking specifically about the organization called the Friends of Canadian Broadcasting.

If the bill is passed in its current form, do you feel that the CRTC will be able to regulate social media and impose conditions on them?

[Scott Hutton]

Bill C-10 is intended to improve the existing act on a number of fronts.

As our chairperson mentioned earlier, the task of the CRTC is to implement the measures intended in the major political outlines. Accordingly, we have different approaches for French content and English content and very specific measures as to Canadian content and French-language content. We have even added to them in recent years, because the market was concerned about the matter.

I do not feel the CRTC will retreat or give in to pressure in that regard. The current legislation gives French-language content a predominant place in the country.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I feel like I have six minutes in which to run a marathon. We could talk to each other about so many things.

I confess that I am very concerned about the lack of teeth in Bill C-10 in terms of protecting original French-language content and Canadian content. I am concerned to see that it is in the departmental directives rather than in the act.

Mr. Scott, do you prefer to have a legislative framework that is better defined, a little stricter, and that makes the playing field clearer for you, or do you prefer to have more latitude in interpreting the sections and the spirit, the intent, of the act?

In this case, I am thinking particularly about how language content is apportioned.

[Rachelle Frenette, General Counsel and Deputy Executive Director, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission]

Good afternoon.

Thank you for the question, Mr. Rayes.

I can just tell you that we are relying on the note from the Department of Justice, which has studied Bill C-10 and concluded that the bill is constitutional.