Bill C-6 (Historical)

An Act to amend the Criminal Code (conversion therapy)

This enactment amends the Criminal Code to, among other things, create the following offences:
(a) causing a person to undergo conversion therapy without the person’s consent;
(b) causing a child to undergo conversion therapy;
(c) doing anything for the purpose of removing a child from Canada with the intention that the child undergo conversion therapy outside Canada;
(d) promoting or advertising an offer to provide conversion therapy; and
(e) receiving a financial or other material benefit from the provision of conversion therapy.
It also amends the Criminal Code to authorize courts to order that advertisements for conversion therapy be disposed of or deleted.

Criminal Code

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Speaker, at the conclusion of the hon. member's speech, he talked about how it should be individuals, not paternalistic governments, who make their own decisions in life.

Would he elaborate on how the bill would impact people's ability to make their own decisions within their own life?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Speaker, all of us have different aspects of our identity that we seek to reconcile. People choose to reconcile those things in different ways.

I gave the example of a well-known Catholic priest and writer, Henri Nouwen, who identified a same-sex attraction and who sought to live out his vows of celibacy. That was a personal choice that reflected, for him, the way in which he wished to construct his identity.

I would not say for a second that anyone should be forced to make that choice, but people should be allowed to make a choice and should seek support in doing that. Others who wish to respond to those attractions differently should be absolutely free to do so, and to be loved and treated with respect as they do so.

I do not think there is any reason for governments to prescribe a particular way in which people construct their identities. What we need to be concerned about, as politicians, are cases where there is bullying, coercion, violence and torture. We can work together to address those situations, while recognizing that people may make all kinds of different choices about sexual action, behaviour or relationships, and it is up to them to make those choices.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to draw my colleague's attention to Carrie.

Carrie was a minor when she transitioned. Now she is publicly expressing her experience. She was prescribed hormones after four sessions of therapy and she noted that no attempts were made at these therapy sessions to process personal issues that she raised and no one in the medical or psychological field tried to dissuade her from her gender transition or offer an option other than possibly waiting until she was 18.

This was all Carrie's decision, but what she is saying is that she did not feel she was provided with all the tools that she needed to make that decision properly for herself. I know the justice shadow minister expressed that terminology is important here and that we need to see some amendments that protect individuals who are responsible for communication with people like Carrie. That would be the medical and psychological professions.

What would the member's perspective be on that?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is important to talk about cases of real people and their lived experiences. I know members on all sides of the House have.

The concern that anecdote gets at is that there may be cases in which counsellors are unsure about where this unclear definition is leading them. In a context that has absolutely nothing to do with conversion therapy, they might be trying to talk through what somebody is saying and experiencing and have a fear they will run afoul of the law if they ask questions of someone, who initially presents as identifying as transgender, that may in some way seem to challenge that identification.

We should have good, professional training for counsellors to ensure they are having conversations in a proper, effective way. However, we want to ensure we are not sticking in the arm of the criminal law in a way that creates a chill and maybe even an unwillingness to see or counsel people who are in these kinds of situations.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the President of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I have had the opportunity to listen to many members from different sides of the House contribute to the debate thus far and I am inclined to share some thoughts in regard to this very important issue. I really want to emphasize a couple of points in particular. At my core, I believe that people should feel comfortable and have the freedom to be who they are. That is really important. It matters to us as a society and it should matter to all of us as individuals, given the country that we live in.

That is why I was encouraged and it has been said a couple of times that Canada wants to be known as the best, safest country in the world to fall in love. There is a lot that can be read into that and a lot of positive things that speak boldly about our diversity, tolerance and acceptance. Through the years, I am somewhat dating myself around the 57-58 mark, there have been significant changes and I want to reference some of those things as we have seen a very slow evolution of this very important issue.

Before I do that, I want to reflect on what the member for Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan said. It is encouraging that the Conservative Party has agreed to free the vote so that members can vote whatever way they want. It is a bit of a surprise. I would have thought it might have been a mandatory or a whipped vote coming from the new leader, but for whatever reason, he has chosen to leave it as a free vote. I am a big advocate for the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and our Constitution. I understand the value of freedom to our nation. I thought that the leader of the Conservative Party would have had a whipped vote.

The member for Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan seemed to be of the opinion that the bill as it is written is not worth voting in favour of going to committee. I am anxious to see how he votes. I am hoping that he will be of the minority and we will see the legislation go to committee. The member could look at what the legislation would do to protect minors from conversion therapy provided within or outside Canada, adults who are vulnerable to being forced to undergo conversion therapy and Canadians from commercialization and conversation therapy. These are admirable and based on one part of the member's speech that he would be encouraged to support the legislation.

There has been a great deal of effort put into this legislation. I know the Minister of Diversity and Inclusion and Youth is very anxious to see the bill come before the House. She approached me on a couple of occasions and asked when we were going to debate this bill. There is a great deal of consultation that has taken place in different regions of our country. A great deal of effort has been put into place to date in terms of making sure that we have it right. Obviously, the minister indicated that there is always the possibility of amendments as long as they are given in good faith. I suspect there will be opportunities once it gets to committee.

It would be nice if every government bill, or anything that comes before the House, could have endless debate, but in order to get things passed, sometimes we have to allow it to go to a vote. I look forward to the vote, and ultimately the bill going to committee, because of what this bill would actually do.

The bill would criminalize causing a person under the age of 18, which is a minor, to undergo conversion therapy. It would criminalize removing a minor from Canada to undergo conversion therapy abroad. It would criminalize causing a person to undergo conversion therapy against their will. It would criminalize receiving a financial or other material benefit from the provision of conversion therapy. It would criminalize advertising and offering to provide conversion therapy. Of these initiatives, based on what I have heard today, most if not all would be supported, because everyone seems to be fairly hard on the issue of conversion therapy and for good reason.

I am a big fan of one of my former colleagues, Randy Boissonnault, from Edmonton. Many members will remember him. I always saw him as not only a dear friend, but also as a strong advocate who really understood LGBTQ2 issues. He made a point of explaining it and talking to anyone who had an interest. I recall an awkward situation I was in a number of years ago, and I was not exactly sure where to turn. I went to Randy to get his advice regarding something that was taking place in my own constituency and, as an individual, he made himself available to help us get through a very difficult issue.

Whether we like it or not, there is a great deal of discrimination out there today. Sadly, there are too many people who are made to feel something they should not, and it is having a profound impact on the lives of so many Canadians in all regions of our country. I do not believe that Randy is alone in this. I believe there are people like Randy throughout our country, and these advocates, these people with passion, can speak far greater than I could ever speak on the issue. Not only do they educate people like me, but they are also there for individuals in a very real and tangible way, because there is no shame, and there should be no shame.

I realize my time is coming to a close for the day, but I will hopefully continue tomorrow to talk about some of the changes that we have seen in a relatively short time span, such as the Winnipeg pride parade back in the late 1980s when it came into being and why. Winnipeg was the first major urban centre in North America to elect an openly gay mayor, Glen Murray.

There are many things we have seen over the years that give us all hope and encouragement, but I will continue my remarks tomorrow as my time has expired for this evening.

[The Deputy Speaker, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

The hon. parliamentary secretary will be delighted to know that he will have 10 and a half minutes remaining in his time when the House gets back to debate on the question. It appears all hon. members will be just as pleased. He will also have the extra 10 minutes for questions and comments. Of course, that will happen when the House gets back to debate.

The House resumed from October 26 consideration of the motion that Bill C-6, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (conversion therapy), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the President of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure that I continue with my comments from yesterday.

After listening to the debate yesterday, I wanted to highlight a couple of important points that were made. I believe the most important one is that people should feel free to be who they are. The consequences of societal pressures on people to conform to something they are not causes a great deal of stress and anxiety that leads to some very severe consequences. We heard about some of those consequences yesterday. The most extreme of these, of course, which is a sad reality, is that some people will ultimately commit suicide. This is not to mention the many other things that will take place as a result of society and attitudes that really need to change.

This is not to say we have not made progress. I am 58 years old, and in my generation there has been a great deal of change over the years. I am encouraged by that. Yesterday one of my colleagues said that we want to make Canada the safest place to fall in love, and that speaks of Canada's rich diversity. Diversity goes far beyond our wonderful ethnic diversity. It should incorporate all aspects of the human being and our society in general, and we should be very proud of it.

As I have indicated, I truly believe in Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms and how important our standing in the world is regarding the degree to which we recognize the importance of freedom. I am therefore encouraged to see this legislation. What I found really encouraging yesterday, in listening to discussions on the issues of conversion therapy, is that it seems everyone inside the House opposes it and sees the type of harm it causes in society. A number of members have raised issues and wanted some clarification, but on principle, the House appears to be unanimous in its thinking regarding the dangers of conversion therapy. I hope we will see unanimous support for this legislation, because I believe it is worth being supported by all members of this chamber.

I will be specific with what the legislation would criminalize. We should all note this. It would criminalize causing a person under the age of 18, a minor, to undergo conversion therapy; removing a minor from Canada to undergo conversion therapy abroad; causing a person to undergo conversion therapy against their will; receiving financial or other material benefits from the provision of conversion therapy; and advertising an offer to provide conversion therapy. The essence of what this bill would do is protect minors from conversion therapy regardless of whether it is provided within or outside of Canada, protect adults who are vulnerable to being forced to undergo conversion therapy and protect Canadians from the commercialization of conversion therapy.

I see this as a positive step forward, and I want to reflect on some of the comments I made yesterday, and already this morning, on the degree to which things have changed.

I can recall my school days quite vividly, and I had no sense of what “gay” was. It was not even talked about in school. I had no sense, in terms of any type of behaviour, of what was being perceived or pushed on from the norms of society. It was not until the latter years of high school I started to get a sense there was a part of life that I was not privy to, or that was frowned upon.

When I went into the Canadian Forces, I really started to see discrimination against people who were gay, and the negative impacts of being gay. I suspect I do not need to cite specific examples for people to understand some of the things I am implying with that statement.

Once I entered the political realm in the mid-eighties, things were taking place that were actually fairly encouraging. For example, the Pride parade in Winnipeg was established in 1987. It was not meant to be a Pride parade, per se, but it was a gathering of people with respect to an action from the Manitoba legislature. The action would have included sexual orientation as part of the Manitoba Human Rights Code. Hundreds of people were gathering, either to protest the fact that it did not pass or to celebrate the fact it did pass. It turned into a parade. That was really significant back in the eighties.

Fast-forwarding 25 years, it is really encouraging to look at the Manitoba legislature. Located in downtown Winnipeg in a beautiful building, the chamber, with its horseshoe shape, is one of the finest debating chambers in Canada and possibly even North America. Huge Roman heritage pillars are at the very front of the building. It has a beautiful lawn. About 25 years after that first Pride parade, we saw a celebration and the different colours of the rainbow shining up the pillars. We recognized just how far we have come. It was part of a week of Pride celebrations.

We need to think of the impact that has on our community. It is very difficult for us to comprehend the pressures people are under when hiding their feelings. Because of my upbringing, it is very hard for someone like me to imagine that. I can only attempt to understand the difficulty of young people, in particular, dealing with a very difficult situation in their school, home or work lives. The least I can do is to encourage that freedom where I can. Bill C-6 is a good example. It sends a positive message, but the work is not done. We can still do so much more.

The other thing I am very proud of is the fact that Glen Murray was the first openly gay mayor of a major urban centre in Canada: my home city of Winnipeg.

I thank Glen Murray and Randy Boissonnault from the Liberal caucus, both people I have known over the years who have been such strong advocates, and my daughter to a certain degree, for making sure I am sensitive and have a better, more comprehensive understanding of an issue that is important to all of us.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Madam Speaker, through you to my colleague across the way, I have a couple of quick points.

First, he mentioned at the start of his speech that he was confused as to whether he was 57 or 58 years old. I would appreciate that clarification.

I would like to note that I learned something new about him, which is that he served in the Canadian Armed Forces in the past. We will have that discussion.

Some of the previous members spoke about potential amendments to the bill and what they would like to see. I would like to state that conversion therapy is wrong and should be banned, but the Justice website states:

These new offences would not criminalise private conversations in which personal views on sexual orientation, sexual feelings or gender identity are expressed such as where teachers, school counsellors, pastoral counsellors, faith leaders, doctors, mental health professionals, friends or family members provide affirming support to persons struggling with their sexual orientation, sexual feelings, or gender identity.

Does the member have a concern that anything in that statement would prevent it from being included in this legislation?

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Madam Speaker, on the age front, January 22, 1962, at St. Boniface Hospital, was a very special moment for my parents. I will let the member do the math.

The member brings forward a very reasonable question. From statements made by the minister, I believe that once the bill goes to committee we, as a government, are open to the possibility of making some changes working with opposition members. All I ask members of all political parties to recognize is the immense amount of consultation and work that was done to bring the legislation we have today in its current form.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Madam Speaker, the member and I are both of the same age group. I remember, when I was a teenager, my queer friends were expelled from their families. It was common that if they came out to their parents, many of those young people were told they were not welcome in their own homes. I think of that because my mother goes to mass every single day, but in our home my parents always made sure that the dinner table was set for those who had been kicked out of their own families and had no place else. When we were teenagers, my father told us who we love is who we love, and that is what we must always remember. I think of how, with the young generation today and my daughter's friends, being gay or queer is not an issue. It is considered okay. We have come a long way, but we have not come far enough. I think banning conversion therapy is a huge step we have to take as a nation, to say that we will not go back and undermine the rights of people to be who they are. I want to commend my colleague for his speech.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Madam Speaker, it is important for us to recognize how things have changed and why it is so important that we continue to move forward. The very first time I had an appreciation of how society needed to change was in the early eighties, when I first heard the phrase “gay bashing.” From what I can recall, it had taken place behind the Manitoba legislature. Although I would have been in my teens or early twenties, that is when I first became aware of it. Other families were possibly far more progressive than mine, which I appreciate in one sense. That is why it is so important for me to share my thoughts with my family, and my daughter Cindy in particular is probably now even further advanced on the issue than I am.

[Jenica Atwin, Green, Fredericton, NB]

Madam Speaker, we are talking about removing something from our society that can create harm.

I would also like to hear the parliamentary secretary's thoughts around some of the ways we need to improve investing in services and supports: wrap-around care. I am thinking about Clinic 554 in Fredericton, New Brunswick.

Across the country there are things we need to do to ensure that trans health care is something we protect and invest in, as an example. I am just wondering what the member thinks about that as a conversation.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Madam Speaker, I absolutely think it is important that, as a government, we work with other jurisdictions and do not underestimate the value of non-profit organizations that are advocacy groups and provide direct services. I know at least two or three websites have all sorts of wonderful resources.

There is so much more there now than a decade ago. However, there is still a need for governments to work together to ensure there is that ultimate freedom for people to be who they are.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Madam Speaker, I commend my colleague for his speech.

Yesterday, reference was made to people who get sex changes or other such medical procedures. It was said that we should be asking ourselves some questions in that regard. Personally, I think that is confusing the issue, since the main purpose of the bill currently before us is to protect children from unacceptable treatment.

I would like to hear what my colleague has to say about that.