Bill C-10

An Act respecting certain measures related to COVID-19

This enactment authorizes the Minister of Health to make payments of up to $2.5 billion out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund in relation to coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) tests.
It also authorizes that Minister to transfer COVID-19 tests and instruments used in relation to those tests to the provinces and territories and to bodies and persons in Canada.

An Act Respecting Certain Measures Related to COVID-19

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I was wondering if the hon. member could comment on the apparent NDP-Liberal coalition we have going on here and the vote we had earlier today on our opposition day motion, in which the NDP supported the Liberal government and voted against that motion.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I will answer that question. However, that is an example of what I was talking about and what the hon. member from Vancouver Kingsway was talking about.

Once again, it is the politics of the thing. It is, “Oh, look at the coalition. Look at how they are getting into bed.” This is science. Everywhere one goes, regardless of their political party, if they understand the science, they will agree with this. This is not about getting into bed with someone and forming coalitions. That is the kind of low-grade partisanship that actually puts people's lives on the line because it is more important to be political than to get the right things done.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Speaker, perhaps it is because it is very late in the day today, February 14, but I am somewhat shocked.

I am especially shocked by my colleague, who is so knowledgeable. She said that they want to save lives and prevent senseless deaths, so why did people on my street have to go through triaging because health care services were not available? It is because there was not enough money, not because they did not have access to a test. I agree with having tests.

I am just trying to understand. We heard several times that partisanship is at play, but I believe that the Bloc Québécois should not be included in that because it is the only party that is not looking for power. We are here to protect Quebec's interests, which means we will support what is good for Quebec.

I would like to hear from my colleague, who is the expert. It sounded like she was saying that with respect to the health transfers, the triaging and deaths that occurred were not part of it.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I think this is hilarious. In the first instance, the member spoke tonight about provincial jurisdictions. The provinces are being given these rapid tests. They are being shipped to them. We are actually seeking in this bill to get them shipped directly to provinces, so provinces can distribute them.

If the hon. member cannot find them in her province, she is going to have to ask her provincial government why they have received so many hundreds of millions of tests they have not distributed yet. That has to be my answer. We cannot have it both ways.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciated listening to the member's speech tonight. The fact that she is a physician gives her an opportunity to explain a number of things to Canadians. Of course, saving lives is key to any physician and I really appreciate her passion for that. Could she explain something?

She said omicron was less infectious, but spread more. I wonder how the member would answer this. The nature of a virus is that it wants to survive. What is the member's understanding of the role of a virus that initially comes out very strong, then eventually becomes far more contagious but less dangerous? That is what has happened here.

I would like the member to speak to the fact that emergency vaccines are required only when it is determined that there are no available early treatments to prevent people from getting to the place where they are in ICUs and on ventilators. What is her view of the importance of recognizing how a virus mutates?

I would also like to hear her view on natural immunity. Before we provide vaccines, should that not be determined and find out how many people have very strong T cells and natural immunity capability?

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would be happy to answer that question. Viruses are unpredictable, as we have seen with this virus. Omicron wants to get to as many people as it can to spread itself. Its spread has been decreasing with vaccinations. Fewer and fewer people are getting it. Its spread therefore has become more mild mostly because a lot of people are already vaccinated and have had booster shots. Therefore, they have some degree of immunity and are not getting as sick as they could have. That is the first reason.

Omicron right now is spreading rapidly, but is milder in certain people, but we do not know whether that is only because of vaccines or whether it is the next iteration, B.1. I do not know whether that comes up. Maybe it is far more lethal and it has a lot of problems. We do not understand that, because we do not know and we cannot predict that until it happens.

The other thing is are we going to wait to see if people have natural immunity? This is a case of saying I am going to roll the dice and if someone does not have natural immunity and they happen to die from omicron because they are 80 or older and they die from it, then that was a mistake. I thought that person had immunity. The bottom line is to give—

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

That is a good use of a vaccine.

[The Deputy Speaker, Chris d'Entremont]

Order. I know it is late at night. I know we have not been using Zoom for very long. Let us just make sure that we allow the member to answer. Then we will go back and forth as we normally do.

The hon. member for Vancouver Centre has the microphone.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to finish that thought. Vaccines do convey natural immunity. Where do people think immunity comes from? Someone gets antibodies in response to an antigen. In this case the RNA of the virus will actually cause someone to develop antibodies. Our bodies develop antibodies.

The point is there are many people who are immunocompromised. There are many people with chronic illnesses who do not how susceptible they will be. I, as a physician, am not prepared to roll the dice on whether someone has natural immunity or not. The bottom line is to try and make as many people as immune as we possibly can so we can decrease the damage done.

We still do not even know the long-term effects for people who are getting omicron. We may be getting milder forms. We do not know what is happening long term. A lot of countries are now saying there may be chronic long-term problems.

[The Deputy Speaker, Chris d'Entremont]

I hate to cut things off, but we have to get a few more questions in before the time runs out.

The hon. member for Peace River—Westlock.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is not often we get to go twice in a debate like this, so I am appreciative of that.

The hon. member talked about the science of this. The motion we put forward last week called for the government to put forward a plan, give us some benchmarks or give us some timelines, and show us the science of when we will break out of this pandemic and when we will be able to lift the mandates.

Would the hon. member like to tell us, according to her plan, how many people would have to be vaccinated in her ideal world for the mandates to be dropped and for life to return to some semblance of normal?

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is very important to know what the plan of action is. A plan of action is not one that tries to second-guess a virus, which we cannot do because it has behaved very erratically, and viruses do that.

The bottom line is to ask how many people we can prevent from getting this virus. We need to look at vaccination as a first step in a plan; the plan is vaccination. The next plan is to try to isolate people wherever possible so the spread is contained. Those are some of the things we plan.

We do not plan as a partisan issue. We plan according to what we must do when we have a pandemic, whether it be the flu at the beginning of the 20th century or the plague. A plan is based on what we know, on the science and what has been shown over generations about how to deal with viruses or bacteria, if they happen to be the source of the pandemic. That is a plan. It is a scientific plan. It is not a plan that says we are going to second-guess and say that on March 4, 2022, the virus is going to go away. One cannot tell people that because we do not know that.

Something we have seen with this virus is that it has fooled us over and over again. A plan, for me, is to follow the protocols that every good public health professional has understood from the beginning of the 20th century. What do we do, how do we do it and how do we prevent people from dying?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Mr. Speaker, two weeks to flatten the curve, do we remember that being said? Two weeks to flatten the curve is what we all signed up for around here back in the spring of 2020, two years ago.

Here we are two years later and we still do not have a plan for how we are going to pull out of this pandemic. We put forward a motion last week calling on the government to provide us with a plan. We left it fairly wide open. We asked for a plan for how we would end the mandates and return to some semblance of normal.

The Liberals joined with their coalition partners, the NDP, and voted that motion down, so here we are without a plan for how to end the pandemic. We heard about the vaccines and we called for rapid tests, which is what we are talking about tonight, but here we are without a plan.

The Liberals could have voted for our motion earlier today and could have put forward a plan. We gave them a month to come up with a plan. They have essentially had two years to come up with a plan, and one of the major frustrations from people across the country is that there does not seem to be a plan. We seem to be flying by the seat of our pants.

There is also no humility in this to say that the government actually does not know. That would be an acceptable plan to give, but the government keeps saying it is following the science. Show us the science. Use the science and build a plan. Give us a percentage. We have heard things like “when 70% of the population is vaccinated”, “when 80% of the population is vaccinated” or “when 90% of the population is vaccinated”. Those are all nice targets, but that is kind of like shooting a hole in the target and then painting the bull's eye around the hole we just shot.

If we do not know what the target is, it is pretty hard to have a plan. It is hard to have an idea. As well, the goalposts keep changing. The target keeps changing. The bullet hole is there and we have painted the bull's eye around it. That is essentially where we are at with this whole COVID-19 pandemic.

It has been two years. We have seen jurisdictions around the world removing their vaccination mandates, removing their travel restrictions and opening up their sports arenas. They are watching hockey again and having a good time. Here we are in Canada behind plexiglass and masks and all of these things while other parts of the world are—

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, the member has been speaking for three minutes and has not talked about rapid tests once yet. This is a debate about rapid tests. I urge the Speaker to try to get him back into the lane.

[The Deputy Speaker, Chris d'Entremont]

I thank the minister for that, but the member did mention rapid tests at least once in his speech so far. We have given lots of leeway in our debate tonight to all sides. I will make sure the member keeps to the bill at hand, and I am sure this nudging will keep him there.

The hon. member for Peace River—Westlock may continue.