Bill C-18

Online News Act

An Act respecting online communications platforms that make news content available to persons in Canada

This enactment regulates digital news intermediaries to enhance fairness in the Canadian digital news marketplace and contribute to its sustainability. It establishes a framework through which digital news intermediary operators and news businesses may enter into agreements respecting news content that is made available by digital news intermediaries. The framework takes into account principles of freedom of expression and journalistic independence.
The enactment, among other things,
(a) applies in respect of a digital news intermediary if, having regard to specific factors, there is a significant bargaining power imbalance between its operator and news businesses;
(b) authorizes the Governor in Council to make regulations respecting those factors;
(c) specifies that the enactment does not apply in respect of “broadcasting” by digital news intermediaries that are “broadcasting undertakings” as those terms are defined in the Broadcasting Act or in respect of telecommunications service providers as defined in the Telecommunications Act ;
(d) requires the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission (the “Commission”) to maintain a list of digital news intermediaries in respect of which the enactment applies;
(e) requires the Commission to exempt a digital news intermediary from the application of the enactment if its operator has entered into agreements with news businesses and the Commission is of the opinion that the agreements satisfy certain criteria;
(f) authorizes the Governor in Council to make regulations respecting how the Commission is to interpret those criteria and setting out additional conditions with respect to the eligibility of a digital news intermediary for an exemption;
(g) establishes a bargaining process in respect of matters related to the making available of certain news content by digital news intermediaries;
(h) establishes eligibility criteria and a designation process for news businesses that wish to participate in the bargaining process;
(i) requires the Commission to establish a code of conduct respecting bargaining in relation to news content;
(j) prohibits digital news intermediary operators from acting, in the course of making available certain news content, in ways that discriminate unjustly, that give undue or unreasonable preference or that subject certain news businesses to an undue or unreasonable disadvantage;
(k) allows certain news businesses to make complaints to the Commission in relation to that prohibition;
(l) authorizes the Commission to require the provision of information for the purpose of exercising its powers and performing its duties and functions under the enactment;
(m) requires the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation to provide the Commission with an annual report if the Corporation is a party to an agreement with an operator;
(n) establishes a framework respecting the provision of information to the responsible Minister, the Chief Statistician of Canada and the Commissioner of Competition, while permitting an individual or entity to designate certain information that they submit to the Commission as confidential;
(o) authorizes the Commission to impose, for contraventions of the enactment, administrative monetary penalties on certain individuals and entities and conditions on the participation of news businesses in the bargaining process;
(p) establishes a mechanism for the recovery, from digital news intermediary operators, of certain costs related to the administration of the enactment; and
(q) requires the Commission to have an independent auditor prepare a report annually in respect of the impact of the enactment on the Canadian digital news marketplace.
Finally, the enactment makes related amendments to other Acts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I call this meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to meeting number 50 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

I'd like to acknowledge that we're meeting on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

In keeping with the order of reference adopted by the House on Tuesday, May 31, 2022, the committee is meeting on the study of Bill C-18, an act respecting online communications platforms that make news content available to persons in Canada.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the order of Thursday, June 22, 2022.

Members here in person in the room know how to access their interpretation and what to do. For those attending virtually, I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses who are attending.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon at the very bottom of your screen to activate your mike, and mute when you are not speaking. For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have a choice at the bottom of your screen. It is a little globe. You can press that and get your interpretation in English or French. I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

That's enough for housekeeping.

In accordance with our routine motion, I'm informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection test in advance of the meeting and are using the House of Commons-approved equipment.

Thank you very much.

I will quickly let you know about the list of witnesses—and I will leave Ms. Charette for last, because she's not here yet.

What I will say to the witnesses is this: You each have five minutes. Even if you come as an organization, you still only have five minutes, so you can pick whoever you want to speak on your behalf. I will give you a 31-second shout-out, which is literally a shout. I will shout out to you when you have 31 seconds left. We need to stick to times, here, because we will not be able to get the number of questions and answers in or get everybody to do what they can do.

Here we go. I'm going to begin.

We have, as our panel, Konrad von Finckenstein, former chair of the Canadian Radio-Television and Telecommunications Commission, and Annick Charette, president of the Fédération nationale des communications et de la culture. Representing Meta Platforms, Kevin Chan is global policy director and Marc Dinsdale is head of media partnerships in Canada. OpenMedia is represented by Matthew Hatfield, campaigns director, here by video conference.

I will start with Mr. von Finckenstein.

Mr. von Finckenstein, could you please begin? You have five minutes.

Thank you.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

In principle, the vast majority of parties definitely support Bill C‑18, as do the vast majority of witnesses we've heard, including community newspapers from Alberta and Saskatchewan. What's more, community representatives in Conservative ridings have said that Bill C‑18 would be an important tool.

However, there has been criticism of the transparency surrounding the involvement of small newspapers and community radio stations, which won't be affected if no amendments are made to change matters. There's also the fact that there aren't really any limits on the arbitration process, which means that the web giants will have every reason to drag out the proceedings rather than negotiate. All those aspects should therefore be improved.

As I understand it, Minister, the department hasn't analyzed these issues. Your message today is that you are open to the possibility of accepting amendments to Bill C‑18 so that it actually makes the improvements we would like to see in the community network and Canadian journalism. Are you open to all those changes?

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Talking about reports, Bill C‑18 provides that an auditor's report will be published and submitted to the CRTC on the act's impact on the marketplace.

However, there's no provision to provide parliamentarians with access to that report. Do you think we should have access to the annual report so we can monitor the act's impact on online news in order to improve it over the years?

Please answer that within a few seconds because I am nearly out of time.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you for that.

You mentioned the importance of supporting local community media. You also mentioned that a broad range of supports exist to make sure that our local stories are told and heard.

Yesterday you announced the rollout of budget 2022 funding. Specifically, you were launching the special measures for journalism, which started during the pandemic. It was $10 million for the local journalism initiative and $40 million for the Canadian periodical fund. It's extremely timely.

We've heard from multiple witnesses. I'm thinking of the Saskatchewan and Alberta weekly newspapers—I believe they came last week—as well as local weekly newspapers and news organizations in my riding of Kitchener—Conestoga. They said that to ensure we keep journalism alive, we need this suite of support measures.

Can you expand on the things that are complementing Bill C-18?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

No. It's hard to say who would apply, or not, because there are many different programs directed at them that are benefiting those small media. In many cases, those very small media are more interested in the other programs that exist, rather than in those in Bill C-18.

It would be hard to know, because a lot of them would be continuing to use those programs instead of those in Bill C-18.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Mr. Julian, I've known you since 2004. I'm always ready to discuss and I am open to suggestions.

As you know, the criteria are there, but as I said in my speech, Bill C-18 is not a silver bullet. There are many other programs that are there to support local journalism and small media, and they can apply to them.

We actually increased the funding recently for some of those programs. A lot of them, especially in the western part of the country, are benefiting from those programs.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Minister Rodriguez, we've heard testimony that the Alberta Weekly Newspapers Association and the Saskatchewan Weekly Newspapers Association are all are very supportive of Bill C-18, but all of them raise concerns about many small community newspapers and community radio being excluded.

Are you open to amendments that ensure that the vast level of community media across the country is actually included in the supports that come from Bill C-18?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

It isn't up to me to decide on the mission of a business, Mr. Champoux. Surely you realize that the purpose of this bill is, as far as possible, to prevent any interference and to allow free negotiating between the platforms and media.

I'd like to go back to what you just said because it's very important. Canada is currently a leader. The platforms are resisting for a reason. They think that, if something happens in Canada, it can happen elsewhere.

I was with you in Mexico, Mr. Champoux, and had the same conversations. Before that, I attended the G7 in Germany. Canada's Bill C‑18 was discussed by all the other countries, and they want to see what we do before they determine whether they can introduce the same model.

As you know, Mr. Champoux, media and press freedom and independence have disappeared everywhere. Their disappearance is a threat to democracy both in Canada and elsewhere in the world.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

That's exactly what I asked the CRTC representatives, who answered that their agency would be the one establishing the criteria. Consequently, perhaps it's up to us members of the committee to incorporate them in the bill. I understand that you'll be receptive to those types of amendments.

Earlier you said you were receptive to and interested in foreign legislation. I don't know whether you're aware of this, Minister, but I attended a world conference on culture in Mexico not long ago.

I spoke with representatives of other countries that are monitoring what we're doing with bills C‑11 and C‑18. I mention those countries because, in many instances, they're small countries that likely aren't being as strong as we are compared to the web giants and that therefore have decided to see how the biggest countries legislate in this area. Then they'll feel they have allies when they have to implement their own regulations.

That's mainly why I'd like us to have sound criteria for the quality of businesses that want to be recognized as eligible. The Internet is global, and information circulates across borders. Those same rules will therefore be much easier to enforce in countries that are in a slightly weaker position relative to the web giants.

We have to set an example, hence my concern. We need to apply extremely strict criteria to prevent foreign disinformation and propaganda media from infiltrating our journalism world. That's what I'm referring to.

In view of that, don't you think we should be stricter and more rigorous and demanding of the businesses we recognize?

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for joining us today. This is a very important file. Given the numbers you gave us at the beginning when talking about the media outlets that have collapsed over the last decade plus in this county, there's no question we need to do something different. I'm very thankful that you have taken a leadership role to bring something forward to better protect a service that many of the witnesses have called a public good. Thank you so much for being here.

There was a recent article in which the Conservative leader was asked his position on Bill C-18. The article states, “[Mr.] Poilievre said he has no problem with a model that allows media to be compensated by these massive companies.”

What is your reaction to that statement, Minister?

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Minister, I wonder if you would see value in our hearing from other witnesses with regard to Bill C-18. For example, we haven't heard from copyright experts. We haven't heard from Facebook. We haven't heard from Twitter. We haven't heard from international trade experts, and the U.S. has expressed concern. I'm just curious whether you feel that perhaps it would be beneficial to hear from experts before continuing to move forward to clause-by-clause consideration.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

Minister, my next question has to do with clause 24 of the bill.

We know that in everyday life we can use links within our sites, whether it's a blog, our Facebook pages or Twitter, etc. We can share these links, and no one is required to pay for doing so.

However, under Bill C-18, all of a sudden DNIs, digital news intermediaries, would be required to pay for news links, but only news links. News links would be the only thing on the Internet that would be ascribed a monetary value, and no other links. All other links can be shared with no problem and no need to pay, but news links somehow have value.

I'm just curious as to why news links are ascribed a value, but other links are not. Why do you feel that this is appropriate?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

All right.

Madam Chair, colleagues and members of the committee, I'm really happy to have the chance to appear today to talk about the online news act.

As I said, I want to start by stating facts: 468. That's the number of media outlets—newspapers, television, radio stations and news websites—that closed between 2008 and last August. Seventy-eight of them have closed since the beginning of the pandemic. This bill is about them. It's also about the future of journalism in our country.

On the surface, the act is about making sure that news outlets in Canada get fair compensation for the important work they do, but at its core, the act is about so much more than that. It's about upholding our democracy, because our democracy, as any democracy, needs a free, independent and thriving press. We all rely on fact-based and timely news to make rational decisions, counter disinformation and participate in our democracy. In these challenging times, this is more important than ever.

The Internet has fundamentally changed the way we create, search and consume content, especially news. Canadians increasingly get their news from digital platforms. According to a very recent report published by the Reuters Institute this year, 77% of Canadians consume news online, 55% of them from social media. Over the period covered, we can see that our news sector has declined. News is largely disseminated by the platforms, but the businesses that create that news aren't profiting from it as they should.

Currently, there's absolutely no incentive for digital platforms to compensate the media fairly for their content. That has a direct impact on our ability as a society to access reliable news. I said it when we introduced Bill C-18, and I'll say it again today: a free and independent press is one of the pillars of our democracy. It is essential to our democracy.

Canadians rely on their local and national media for an understanding of what's going on in their community and around the world. We're talking here about the very existence and survival of independent journalism. Let me be very clear: Canadian news businesses are in crisis.

Bill C-18 proposes decisive action to stop this decline. It presents a practical, market-based approach that lessens power imbalances and encourages good-faith negotiations. It encourages digital platforms to enter into fair agreements with news organizations.

As you know, these agreements must meet specific criteria. This includes everything from supporting local, regional and national news to upholding freedom of expression and promoting inclusion, innovation and diversity. If they don’t, then—and only then—the act will compel mandatory negotiation, and final offer arbitration will come only as a last resort.

As we've often said, Bill C-18 is based on the Australian model, under which the news media are able to secure fair compensation. We've adopted elements of a model that's already working, and we've improved it by adding other, typically Canadian elements.

Canada is really leading the way, and we're doing it because Canadians expect us to take action to protect their local journalism in a transparent manner. That's also why we publish a list of digital platforms that meet the criteria, a list of exemptions, the reasons why they have been granted, a list of eligible news businesses and so on.

The online news act won’t be a silver bullet for all the challenges the sector faces. As Rod Sims, the former chair of the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, said, “the world is watching” Canada. The world is watching us, and I hope we will rise to the occasion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I would now like to return to the consideration of Bill C-18, an act respecting online communications platforms that make news content available to persons in Canada.

Welcome, Minister Rodriguez, and your department officials who are here to answer questions.

As you all know, you have five minutes. I will give you a 30-second shout-out when you have 30 seconds left.

Begin, Minister Rodriguez, for five minutes, please.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

…we should literally add eligibility criteria to Bill C-18 because the CRTC won't be taking the liberty of enforcing journalistic quality criteria. That's my understanding.