Bill C-251

Conservation of Fish Stocks and Management of Pinnipeds Act

An Act respecting the development of a federal framework on the conservation of fish stocks and management of pinnipeds

This enactment requires the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans to develop a federal framework on the conservation of fish stocks and management of pinnipeds.

Conservation of Fish Stocks and Management of Pinnipeds Act

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

moved that Bill C-251, An Act respecting the development of a federal framework on the conservation of fish stocks and management of pinnipeds, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Madam Speaker, Canada's coastal regions are facing an ecological disaster. As such, I stand today for the second reading of my bill, Bill C-251, an act respecting the development of a federal framework on the conservation of fish stocks and management of pinnipeds.

Pinnipeds are a group of marine animals that include seals, sea lions and walruses. The focus of the bill is to address the harmful effects of seal and sea lion predation on the biodiversity of our oceans.

Historically, Canada has had the most productive oceans in the world, as it should, having the longest coastline in the world. However, since the eighties, the productivity of our oceans has been drastically reduced, resulting in the loss of billions of dollars in our blue economy and the loss of traditional ways of life for our first nation communities. Currently Norway, a fellow North Atlantic country, has a blue economy worth three times more than that of Canada, with a coastline that is 2.5 times shorter than Canada’s. Thus, Norway’s ocean is nearly eight times more productive than Canada’s oceans.

Since the eighties, Canadian fisheries have undertaken vast conservation measures to improve the health of our fish stocks. This year marks the 30th anniversary of the moratorium on northern cod off Newfoundland and Labrador. There has been a commercial moratorium on Atlantic salmon for the same amount of time, and we have recently seen the closure of the mackerel fishery and the spring gulf herring fishery in Atlantic Canada.

Capelin quotas are currently less than 10% of their historic highs. In Labrador, the snow crab quota has been cut by 80% since 2000. In British Columbia, salmon quotas are down 80% since 2014. This year the Pacific herring fishery has been completely closed. These are a few examples of the conservation measures that have been taken over the last 30 years, but to no avail.

Iceland had a capelin moratorium in 2019 and 2020, and their conservation measures have worked. This year, they have set a capelin quota of almost 900,000 tonnes. Canada once had a 250,000-tonne capelin fishery, but it has steadily declined to only 22,000 tonnes this past year. Norway, Russia and Iceland currently have a million-tonne cod fishery, but Canada’s northern cod cannot recover after a 30-year moratorium.

Cod and many other species rely on capelin as a main food source, and DFO estimates that 7.6 million harp seals consume 1.8 million tonnes of capelin. Now, if folks cannot envision 1.8 million tonnes, they can try envisioning four billion pounds. In addition to the destruction of our capelin stocks, seals have turned their attention to the Atlantic salmon. Anglers in my province have observed seals in salmon rivers such as the Humber River and the Northwest Gander River, as far as 50 kilometres upstream from the ocean.

Local seal harvesters off the coast of Labrador have counted as many as 150 female crabs in the stomach of one seal. At an average survival rate for those crab eggs, that one seal, in a short period of time, destroyed millions of dollars’ worth of adult crab, should they have survived to maturity. Seals have even been observed eating lobster in Nova Scotia and south and western Newfoundland, but they told the server to hold the garlic butter.

Rivers have been closed to salmon fishing, and the cod quota has been slashed in fishing area 3Ps on the south coast of Newfoundland and Labrador. The common denominator is predation by grey seals, which have had a population explosion that puts their numbers at five times historic levels.

In Atlantic Canada, the population of all combined species of seals in 1970 was approximately two million. Today, it is over 10 million. These massive herds of seals consume the entire commercial catch in just 15 days. That means they consume 24 times the annual commercial catch in Atlantic Canada every year.

On Canada's Pacific coast, pinniped populations are more than 10 times higher than they were in 1970. Fifty per cent of salmon smolts entering the ocean from B.C.’s rivers are consumed by pinnipeds. They also consume millions of returning adults.

Sea lions in rivers consume 40 pounds of salmon per day. They even wait near a narrow passage at the north end of Vancouver Island to take about two million Fraser River sockeye as they form schools on their annual migration. Pinnipeds even compete with resident killer whales as they forage on salmon and herring.

Massive conservation measures have been made in B.C. fisheries in a similar fashion to those measures taken in Atlantic Canada, but with no results. When Norway and Iceland take conservation measures, they get results. We share the same ocean, so why do we not get the same results? It is very simple. It is because these countries manage their pinniped populations, and those populations have remained stable over the last 30 years.

Many factors contribute to the decline of fish stocks. However, we can only control two. Number one is the amount of fish harvesters take out of the ocean. Number two is the number of pinnipeds that prey on those fish stocks.

Bill C-251 would require the creation of a framework for the conservation of fish stocks by pinniped management. By managing our pinniped populations, we can restore balance in our marine ecosystems. At the same time, we can help restore livelihoods that were lost in first nation and northern communities.

With the vast decline in, and in some jurisdictions the end of, commercial pinniped harvesting, the negative effect was twofold. The 2009 EU decision to ban non-indigenous commercial pinniped products removed the checks and balance in the predator-prey relations in our oceans. It also had the unintended consequence of destroying markets for Inuit hunters.

Pinnipeds are currently harvested in the U.S.A., Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Namibia and Russia. The framework of this bill calls for a yearly census on all species of pinnipeds to ensure the conservation of pinniped populations and that these populations remain viable.

This framework calls for a study of how other countries in the northern hemisphere maintain their pinniped populations at successful and viable levels that do not infringe on the productivity of their oceans. We need to learn from these countries. This framework shall address trade barriers and work to remove them because these barriers are the root cause of our ecological imbalance and the destruction of the livelihoods of the first nations communities that depend on harvesting pinnipeds.

We have the products developed for trade, and I am not necessarily referring to fur. There is a massive demand for healthy omega-3 oil produced from pinnipeds, both for medicinal purposes and as food supplements. My good friend, the doctor from Cumberland—Colchester, knows all about this wonderful topic.

Why is seal oil better for us than other omega-3 oils? Number one, seal oil naturally contains 24% omega-3 without concentration. Number two, seal oil is extremely high in DPA, which is not found in fish oil. In fact, the only other source of DPA is breast milk. Number three, the fatty acids in seal oil are nearly identical to human fatty acids, and are, therefore, much more readily absorbed than those from cold-water fish or plant sources. A shelf-stable, nutrient-rich protein powder has even been developed, and the iron it contains is many times more readily absorbed by the body than iron from any other source.

Products such as these, derived from full utilization of harvested pinnipeds, have enormous potential to help Canada fulfill its role in feeding the approximately 800 million starving people on Earth.

Through consultations with industry stakeholders and first nations communities, I have found tremendous support for this bill and a great desire to have a pinniped management protocol that works side by side with other aspects of fisheries management.

I thank the Pacific Balance Pinniped Society, which has developed a seal management plan that was proposed to DFO that currently has over 700,000 supporters, including 115 first nations groups, the Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia, the B.C. Wildlife Federation and UFAWU-Unifor.

I thank the many industry stakeholders that encouraged me to move this bill forward on their behalf. I thank Chief Mi'sel Joe of the Conne River Mi’kmaq Tribal Nation for his support.

I also thank Bob Hardy of the Atlantic Seal Science Task Team, my colleague, the MP for South Shore—St. Margarets, Senator David Wells, the Library of Parliament and my dedicated staff for helping me to put this bill together.

Bill C-251 calls for the government to table a yearly progress report for the framework it develops. My bill, if passed, would provide a long-term conservation opportunity to sustainably rebuild the valuable, renewable, green resource that is our fishery. At the same time, we would rebuild a renewable industry in the harvesting, processing and trade of pinniped products, and would provide both conservation and economic opportunities to first nations and coastal communities.

Mankind has allowed an imbalance to occur in our ecosystem that has resulted from pinniped overpopulation, and it is time to bring an end to this ecological disaster.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries]

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure working with the member opposite on the fisheries committee, and I enjoy our conversations outside of committee.

The bill calls for a yearly census to be conducted on pinnipeds. Would the member agree that the increased spending this bill requires for conducting that census would be important?

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Madam Speaker, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans has had a massive increase in its budget since 2015. All we need is a simple diversion of funds taken out of the regular science budget that it has right now.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague from Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame for his great speech and his bill.

You spoke about ecological imbalance and the repercussions for indigenous communities. There is still much to do with respect to acceptable population levels by species.

Do you think that retaining the criterion of historical levels would result in a drastic reduction in populations?

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

I would like to remind the member to address her comments through the Chair and not directly to the member.

The hon. member for Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Madam Speaker, I am not exactly sure what my hon. colleague means, but I think she is asking me how we are going to look at historical data to create the framework moving forward.

What I mean is that we would look back at where historical populations of pinnipeds were, and establish acceptable levels of where they should be so that our fish stocks could recover and get back to the levels they were at before the explosion in the population of pinnipeds. In the eighties, we started making conservation measures at the same time as there was an end to the commercial harvesting of pinnipeds. That was this. It caused the collapse of our fish stocks.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Madam Speaker, I thank the member for his speech. I appreciate being part of the fisheries and oceans committee alongside him.

I want to ask a question. The bill speaks at length about the management of pinnipeds, and I am wondering if the member could expand on what he means by management. In particular, maybe he could play that out a bit more. What would that look like? Also, what would happen with the pinnipeds that are being managed?

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Madam Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague from Vancouver Island, who is originally from my home province of Newfoundland and Labrador. I think that is why she cares so much about the management of pinnipeds. It is a traditional thing that runs through her veins.

What I mean by the management of pinnipeds is that not only do we set quotas, but we support the harvesting of pinnipeds. We can also make sure to support the marketing of the products we obtain from full utilization, and endeavour to get access to the world markets that we so desperately need. The world needs our products. That management also helps in the conservation of fish stocks. When we bring pinniped populations down, their prey populations go up.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Madam Speaker, it is always a pleasure to be able to talk about issues that are important no matter where one lives in Canada. In fact, from coast to coast to coast, as well as inland, our fishing industry is of critical importance. We can talk about Lake Winnipeg, the north, Atlantic Canada and the Pacific, where we have relatively healthy industries that are of critical importance to all Canadians, not just to those who fish our oceans or our inland lakes.

The member made reference to one of our chamber colleagues about how, being from Newfoundland and Labrador, it is kind of in the blood. I think of the member for Labrador, whom I have come to know over many years, and her position on the issue of seals. I can very much appreciate the sensitivity with respect to what is taking place.

The member made some specific references to numbers, numbers we should all be concerned about. I will give him that. When we talk about the number of seals out there today, it is a significant number. He often made reference to pinnipeds, such as seals and walruses, which consume vast quantities of fish.

I am pleased the member has brought forward the debate in the form of a piece of legislation, because it reflects a lot of the discussions I have personally had with the member for Labrador, but also with other members, in particular from our Atlantic caucus. We are all concerned, some maybe a bit more than others. That is something I have witnessed first-hand. I can assure the member that I have always been somewhat envious of the members of the Atlantic caucus when they get their teeth into an issue, and I know this is an important issue for them. However, this is not just an issue for Atlantic Canada. That is why I started off talking about what is taking place not only in the Atlantic Ocean. We also need to be concerned about the Pacific Ocean, the Arctic and our inland lakes.

We have the DFO management group, which in essence puts into place measures to try to provide a level of comfort to people that we are on the right track. I can appreciate that there will always be some members who will say that we should be moving more in a particular direction. What this bill is attempting to achieve is some form of a more detailed management system that would ultimately provide additional assurances. The government itself, in recognizing the special situation that is taking place in Atlantic Canada, brought together the Atlantic seal task team. It is not a task force; it is a team of individuals, but one could ultimately call it a task force of sorts. However, at the end of the day it is a group of individuals that includes people who are fishing our seas.

I think it is really important that as politicians we all have an opinion on it. I can sit across the way and talk to my friend who introduced the bill. It appears he has some fairly solid arguments, and I respect that. Having said that, I think we also need to factor in, much like when we went through the coronavirus, that we have science that needs to be taken into consideration and controversial issues that have to be overcome.

I look at the seal population and the damage that industry has caused as a direct result of, what I would call, unfair practices by a number of people to make it sound as if there is no role for a seal industry. I would like to believe that there is a healthy future for our seal industry here in Canada.

When we take a look at fishing stock issues, we need to focus a great deal of attention on the issue of science. We need to listen to the people who get paid to do the job they are doing and listen for the advice they might have to offer.

When we talk about the industry, as a whole, it is significant. We are talking about billions of dollars of seafood. It is probably somewhere in the neighbourhood of $8 billion to $10 billion, depending on the year. Yes, the United States is the primary country we export our products to from our oceans and inland lakes, but it is not the only one.

Members might be surprised, and I know this from past discussions and debates, that there are many countries around the world we export to. It is not just the United States. The products that are pulled from Canada's oceans are well recognized. I believe there was a time when there was an idea to fly fresh lobster from either Nova Scotia or New Brunswick directly to France because the demand for fresh Canadian lobster was so high.

There is a very real market. We are talking about literally hundreds to thousands of direct and indirect jobs. I suspect we will see during debate of the member's piece of legislation many contributions that will hopefully allow for us to have an informed vote when the time comes. We will have to wait and see whether it ultimately passes.

The member is fortunate in the sense that he is in the first draw, which allows the member to ensure the legislation will, in fact, be voted on. There might be an opportunity to see it go to committee. We will have to wait and see. One of the things I do know is that there are members in all political parties who are taking a look at the issue of pinnipeds populations, because it is not just seals, as we can factor in walruses and so forth. They are having this huge impact.

I can appreciate that the impact is probably the most significant in Atlantic Canada. I do not want people to lose sight of the fact that one does not have to be from Atlantic Canada to care about the industry. I would like to see the advancement, as I said earlier, of a seal industry. I think we can improve our seal industry here in Canada. It might be colleagues of mine who will wear a seal tie. In fact, I do not have perfect eyesight, but the member opposite might be wearing a seal tie because it seems to have that gloss to it.

There are many products out there. I think there is a potential demand, but we have to work with the different partners and stakeholders, whether they are indigenous people, environmentalists or industry reps. We need to make smart decisions on this industry. It is worth billions and involves thousands of both direct and indirect jobs.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Madam Speaker, I will not keep anyone in the dark. The Bloc Québécois supports the principle of Bill C-251, an act respecting the development of a federal framework on the conservation of fish stocks and management of pinnipeds. That said, it all depends on the content and the application of that content.

The interaction between fishing activities and various species of pinnipeds has been an issue for many years, particularly in the St. Lawrence estuary. As early as 1985, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans had detailed studies on the losses suffered by fishermen who came into contact with seals, particularly in terms of damaged nets and partially consumed fish in those nets.

I am feeling emotional this afternoon because of my experience as a daughter of the river, an islander, coming from a line of sailors and sport fishermen. My ancestors were so rich with invaluable knowledge of the land. How proud my father would be to hear me defending his river and all the life it contains.

Back in the early 1980s, my father was already talking to me about his fear of seeing cod disappear, primarily as a result of seal overpopulation. In the absence of predators, these poor animals grew too large in number, and hunger drove them to gorge on several species in the St. Lawrence River and in the gulf. What is more, my partner scuba dives in the St. Lawrence, and on several occasions, he has seen countless cod with their guts torn out.

My father used to say that he would not see cod disappear completely in his lifetime, but that the next generation probably would. He said we would be the ones to see the St. Lawrence without cod. What a surprise it was to him when, 25 years later, he realized there was no longer any cod in the river.

Cod is a succulent fish and has had pride of place on our tables throughout Quebec's history. I really want to make the urgency of the situation clear today. We must implement finely tuned measures that are consistent with overarching ecological principles, and we must do it as soon as possible. Underpinning these principles is a notion we must embrace if humanity is to survive its own ignorance of nature's priorities: equilibrium.

Here on earth, there is a simple but powerful system that keeps everything in equilibrium. That system is called the food chain, and at its core is the concept of predator and prey. When that equilibrium is upset, everything becomes dysfunctional. That's what we are seeing with the overpopulation of pinnipeds. However, much of what has happened is also due to human ambition, which is driving the planet to its doom.

Back home, we coexist with nature. We do not try to conquer or disrupt it. We know that nature rests on a delicate balance, as do we. The fish plants back home certainly are not pocketing billions of dollars from economic development, but people in the industry make a good living, and living in harmony with nature is the only way to survive in the long term. People in the industry know that.

I am certainly not indifferent to the death of an animal. I have four cats and a dog, and my nine chickens all have names. I do not enjoy watching a cougar catch an antelope to feed its young, but that is nature. No hunt is a happy one, but it is a necessary part of maintaining ecological balance, which we rely on, and we know that our own equilibrium is directly connected to the equilibrium of wildlife resources. This has been true since the beginning of time.

That said, all the scarcity problems among marine species are not just due to pinniped overpopulation, which is why it is so important to use science to understand the different factors currently having an impact on biological balance in the marine ecosystem. That is why we must move forward with this bill, which we hope will show us a better way to manage marine biodiversity.

Let us come back to Bill C-251. The Department of Fisheries and Oceans must act to promote conservation and the protection of marine ecosystems. Based on what I have read, I have no doubt that pinniped populations have a significant impact on fish stocks. However, we cannot focus on just this one variable to understand the dynamics affecting fish stocks.

For that reason, when we study the bill I would like to ensure that the strategy to be deployed by the minister takes into account both human and natural factors that affect the ecosystem. It is 2022: We must consider the environmental impact. A good policy must manage the impact of both human activity and climate change on nature and, in turn, the impact of natural disruptions on human activity.

The study and analysis of the impact of pinniped populations on fish stocks must not distract from the deleterious and devastating impact of overfishing, and in particular industrial fishing methods that are responsible for a true catastrophe on a global scale, specifically the overfishing and drastic reduction of fish stocks. Approximately 33% of global fish stocks are totally overexploited, and that increases to 66% for reserves that are fully exploited. If we continue at this rate, overfishing will deplete the oceans by 2048, pinnipeds or no pinnipeds.

In other words, we have to do something to protect fish stocks and to control the pinniped population, but in so doing we must ensure that we do not punish nature for a human error.

Let us take some of the measures set out in this legislation.

The bill should require the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to constantly update its studies on the interactions between pinniped and the fish populations. The department already has expertise in and knowledge of the impact of the pinniped population on fish stocks. We must ensure that the new framework created by Bill C‑251 allows for this knowledge to be mobilized so that we can act effectively.

To that end, a pinniped census may be a tool, but the scientific component of the framework should not focus exclusively on a census. In fact, could we look into the need for such a census? How is that better than using methods that estimate the size of populations?

With regard to acceptable population levels for different species, it is important to pay close attention to the criteria used. Using historical levels as a criterion would suggest that population levels have drastically decreased. Does it makes sense to compare our populations to those of other countries when the ecosystems are different? Does it makes sense to use the same framework for all pinnipeds? Should the approach not vary for different species of pinnipeds?

There are many issues to consider, and a lot of questions come to mind. What does it actually mean to remove barriers to trade in seal products? What are those barriers? Are there examples of projects that promote the manufacture and sale of seal products? There are so many questions surrounding this bill.

The Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, on which I serve as vice-chair, will be undertaking a study on the management of pinnipeds beginning in a few weeks. Several issues need to be carefully examined. Our study of Bill C-251 will have to take into account the recommendations made by the committee, which will do everything it can to meet with experts, coastal populations, people on the ground, and even officials from other countries such as Norway, Iceland and Finland. The committee plans to visit those countries next fall, in order to look at what has and what has not worked on the other side of the Atlantic.

I will continue to be attentive and proactive. I will leave no stone unturned to ensure that the committee can give the public all the facts and provide a just and objective report to the government, based on the values that will allow for the survival of the marine world in all its splendour.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for bringing forward this bill today. It is an honour to rise today to speak to Bill C-251. I know that the member for Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame cares deeply about this issue and many others. As someone who was born in Newfoundland and now lives proudly in Nanaimo—Ladysmith on Vancouver Island, I can say Canada's coastal communities and marine ecosystems are a true passion of mine. As the country with the longest coastline in the world, we are particularly interconnected to our oceans. The way in which we treat our oceans and the marine environments impacts all Canadians.

This bill recognizes a really important part of the current state of many of our fisheries. On all of our coasts, our fisheries and marine ecosystems are facing an emergency. Cod populations have struggled to recover in the Atlantic for decades since the 1992 moratorium. Just last year, the government announced closures of 60% of the salmon fisheries on the west coast. Successive Liberal and Conservative governments have failed to implement sustainable recovery plans for depleted fish populations. Workers who rely on our fisheries are worried about their futures, and Canadians across the country are scared that we have squandered our incredible natural resources beyond the point of recovery.

In many coastal communities, there are concerns about the role of pinnipeds with respect to fish populations. This bill proposes to take steps to address gaps in the scientific literature around pinniped populations across Canada and their role in marine ecosystems. It is abundantly clear that across Canada's marine ecosystems, we failed to invest in data and monitoring efforts. I believe that this legislation could help to highlight the shortfalls of data around pinniped populations in Canada. Across the board, we must continue to invest in this kind of monitoring, especially as we are increasingly seeing more fish populations struggling.

The bill also calls upon the federal government to provide stronger supports for indigenous and remote communities that have relied on the commercial seal harvest. New Democrats have long supported a seal harvest that supports the rights of the first nations, Inuit and other groups to engage in traditional and commercial seal harvesting. It is one that is sustainable, with zero tolerance for any inhumane practices.

In many cases, pinnipeds have been used as a convenient scapegoat by politicians when their promises of fish stock recoveries have failed. Brian Tobin, just as one example, a former minister of fisheries and oceans, remarked in 1995 that the cod moratorium needed to be extended due to predation by harp seals, conveniently deflecting away from decades of fisheries mismanagement by Liberal and Conservative governments in Ottawa. We need to do better, and that starts by recognizing that human causes are the key drivers of the state of our fish populations today.

This issue does not have a simple fix. A 2018 report from the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans highlighted the testimony of DFO research scientist John Brattey. He underscored the scientific consensus around the decline of northern cod, saying that in this case, pinniped predation was not found to be a significant driver of northern cod in the period between 1985 and 2007. This is a trend that has not changed.

He also highlighted that capelin availability and fishing efforts were far more important in driving the northern cod population, and that climate change, poor management and the inability to protect our marine ecosystems were the root causes of our challenges. To that end, it is extremely worrying to see that, since 2015, capelin stocks have declined by an estimated 70% in this region. Unfortunately, there is no silver bullet that will solve this crisis, and the federal government has consistently failed to act on the issues we know are driving fish declines.

Our solutions need to recognize that the only way we can address this crisis is by taking bold action that recognizes the complexities of our marine ecosystems. Most pinnipeds are described as opportunistic feeders, which means that as specific fish stocks decline, pinnipeds will look for other food supplies that are in greater abundance. When we look at managing only one part of our ecosystem, such as that of pinnipeds, we struggle to imagine a prosperous and abundant ecosystem. We often imagine the bare minimum needed to keep specific populations going for just another few years. After decades of decline, it is understandable that we cannot imagine a more sustainable future at this point, but that is exactly what we need to do in order to leave a more sustainable future for generations to come.

Single-species management policies ignore the interconnection within our ecosystem and often see our oceans' value exclusively as what can be extracted from them. We see pinnipeds as a problem because they get in the way of our ability to take more fish out of the ocean. Managing pinnipeds to reduce fish mortality does not take into account the species that rely on pinnipeds, like transient killer whales. Along the west coast, we have only recently started to see the recovery of this incredible population, and the science has clearly stated that it is in large part due to the recovery of pinniped populations. I think most Canadians would agree that targeting specific species without considering the entire ecosystem could end in irreversible consequences.

One of the other concerns we have is that this legislation calls for management regardless of the availability of the market to support a sustainable hunt. As we have seen in Newfoundland and Labrador, the commercial seal harvest now represents no more than 1% of the labour force and an increasingly small percentage of the province's GDP. Moreover, the bill's language on establishing acceptable levels based on biomass and historical levels is far too vague, and I do not think we could reasonably be able to determine a scientific consensus on what that would mean in practical terms.

One of my biggest concerns in this legislation is around the proposal to promote the use of an antipredator device to protect infrastructure and fish populations. In recent years, Canada has taken steps to ensure that we are moving to more humane solutions. Importantly, we have seen international partners like the United States set out policies that they will not allow imports of seafood in areas where marine mammals are being harmed by fisheries. The possibility that this legislation might threaten our seafood exports to our largest foreign market is deeply troubling.

As I conclude my thoughts, one area that is incredibly vital to put front and centre in these discussions is the importance of seal harvesting for many indigenous communities, especially Inuit communities. While many Canadians remember the heated debates through the 1970s, 1980s and beyond on seal harvesting in Newfoundland and Labrador and the international media spotlight that this received, Inuits have been one of the largest participants in a sustainable seal harvest in Canada. However, their story and experience have been largely ignored. While not targeting Inuits directly, international campaigns against sealing have had an enormous impact on Inuits' ability to support their families and earn a livelihood.

It was an absolute pleasure to recently watch filmmaker Alethea Arnaquq-Baril's documentary Angry Inuk. The film really centres the story of this international debate on Inuit culture, traditions and livelihoods. It highlights the economic and social costs that resulted from Inuits no longer being able to access markets for seal products. As seal product bans were put in place, Inuit communities suffered. Inuits are still living with decisions made without consideration of the impacts on them to this day, and the impacts are felt through long-term food insecurity and some of the highest suicide rates in the country, to name just two. The film also underscores the beauty of the traditions around seal harvesting and the community that these activities foster. As we work forward through reconciliation, we need to recognize the immense cost that colonialism has had on indigenous communities and ensure that indigenous people reclaim their traditions.

Once again, I would like to applaud the member for raising an important issue with this private member's bill. This is an important issue across the country. I know that if we work together across party lines, we can help build stronger marine ecosystems where all species are prospering and where traditional seal harvesting is done sustainably and supports indigenous communities. There is much work to be done, and I look forward to working with the member across the way as we move forward.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to join this discussion and listen to the thoughtful remarks of my colleagues from the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. I am also pleased to rise to speak to Bill C-251, an act respecting the development of a federal framework on the conservation of fish stocks and management of pinnipeds.

I would first like to thank and congratulate my friend from Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame for his hard work on this important issue and for this innovative bill. Like him, I come from a riding that depends on the Atlantic Ocean for the local fishing economy, and I have many constituents who are concerned about the damage pinnipeds are having on our marine ecosystems.

The science is clear: Pinniped overpopulation is having a severe impact on fish and other marine life populations from coast to coast. I hear from fishermen at every wharf I go to along South Shore that they are worried about how this overpopulation is impacting the stocks of many species that they fish commercially. This includes, but is not limited to, mackerel, halibut, shrimp, crab, capelin, Atlantic and Pacific salmon and even lobster. Pinnipeds are devouring them all.

There is also scientific evidence that suggests that plummeting cod stock populations off of Newfoundland in the 1990s, which led to the cod moratorium, was due to an overabundance in the seal population, as well as Spanish and Portuguese overfishing. I sat in as a staffer on the ad hoc committee on the fishery in those years during those decisions.

Additionally, many residents on both Atlantic and Pacific coasts have seen pinnipeds deep into rivers like never before. Rivers are not a natural habitat for them. They are chasing the food that would otherwise be abundant in the ocean, but the animals are adapting to the diminishing food stocks in the oceans they have been consuming and trying to find their source of protein and fat elsewhere.

Every day it seems like another fishing industry is faced with perilous quota reductions and warnings from DFO that, if overfishing continues, more moratoriums and fishing closures will happen. The Liberals are intent on leaving all the fish in the ocean in order to feed pinnipeds and reduce economic activity. These gloomy warnings cause stress for families that depend on the economic benefit that commercial fishing provides.

Countless studies have shown that pinniped overpopulation is contributing to reduced stocks and an imbalance in the ocean and in our biodiversity. For example, there were 2.7 million seals at the start of the cod collapse, the cod moratorium, in 1992. Now, 10 million seals in Atlantic Canada consume the weight of the entire Atlantic commercial catch every 15 days. On top of that, seals in Atlantic Canada annually eat 97% of what is taken out of the ocean.

Harvesters, indigenous groups, coastal communities and scientists are desperate for updated population estimates for pinnipeds. It is reported that seal populations are at their highest levels in a century, and these populations simply continue to grow. In order to address this problem, we need to know just how bad it is and ensure that DFO comes up with a plan to deal with it, which they have not done for 30 years.

Let me repeat, the purpose of the bill before us is not to prescribe a solution. Rather, it is to compel the government to produce an annual census of pinnipeds in Canadian waters and use science to implement a management plan. We have a duty to ensure that the Minister of Fisheries and DFO are working in the interest of commercial fisheries and fishermen to protect the sustainability of our oceans. All parties agree on this. That is why there has been unanimous consent at the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans to study this issue in both this Parliament and the last.

Supporting Bill C-251 is common sense, and coastal MPs from every party in the House have recognized that a pinniped census is required to ensure that DFO is doing its job to protect the biodiversity of our oceans. If there is not all-party support, I would be curious to hear the rationale from members as to why they are prepared to let our oceans face these catastrophic outcomes.

The bill calls for a federal framework to be tabled in the House of Commons within one year and annually after that to provide a yearly pinniped census and a management plan to tackle the problem. We need to know what we are facing.

I have heard hon. members talk about and question costs, which is always a consideration in the House for the government. DFO does biomass studies every year in the $2-billion increase it has added to its budget since 2015. We do annual biomass studies of many species, but not enough. Why would we not do biomass studies of the largest predator of our commercial stock? We have not done that ever in the history of our country. This framework calls on that.

The goal is to promote conservation and protection of marine ecosystems. At the end of the day, I think this is a principle that all members can agree upon. We cannot allow an ecological disaster to take place in our oceans simply because the actions required to stop it may not be politically popular. We cannot turn a blind eye to the carnage and suffering that will take place if pinnipeds run out of things to eat. It is a fact. They will starve within 10 to 20 years.

The situation is putting our entire biodiversity at risk. DFO has estimated that if something is not done about the grey seal population off the coast of Nova Scotia, the entire Nova Scotia fishery will disappear within 10 to 20 years. Membertou First Nation in Cape Breton is taking an innovative approach to this problem, which is having a severe impact on the first nation's ability to fish and maintain its livelihood. The band has been piloting a grey seal harvest. It is calling on the government to allow a full commercial harvest of grey seals. The band is teaching its community members how to humanely harvest pinnipeds.

Over the past few years, a small number of seals were harvested by Membertou, with flippers and loins processed by a Maritime seal company. Most of a pinniped can be harvested. Over eight countries in the world are harvesting pinnipeds now, and up to 100% of them is being used for things, as my colleague mentioned, from protein powders, to omega-3 and food sources for Canadians and other people around the world.

We should look to the experiences and ingenuity of first nations on how this issue can be dealt with. After all, it was our first nations who were first harvesting seals. We should expand and broaden our knowledge of their uses, such as meat and fur. We have seen how regulated and careful management of pinnipeds can be successful.

For example, Norway has managed its seal populations to a successful equilibrium, and Iceland has ensured its thriving fishing economy is not damaged by the overpopulation of pinnipeds. These two progressive, democratic states have found ways to protect the sustainability of the North Atlantic by keeping an eye on pinniped populations and continuing to be strong exporters of this seafood product.

This is an important number. Russia and Norway catch more Atlantic cod than the entire Canadian fishery, yet that species was in decline at the same level in 1992 as it was in Canada. We did a moratorium. They managed pinnipeds. There is no reason why we cannot continue to have our leadership on the world stage, as we do in so many areas, when it comes to the humane and sustainable fishery of pinnipeds for generations of Canadians to come.

In fact, we need to do this for our coastal communities to ensure the biodiversity of the ocean is returned to its natural state and we can continue to reap the benefits with a robust commercial fishery and a sustainable diversity of our oceans in the years to come.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence]

Madam Speaker, it is my pleasure to be here today to discuss this private member's bill, Bill C-251, an act respecting the development of a federal framework on the conservation of fish stocks and management of pinnipeds. I share the desire of the member for Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame to support fish stock conservation efforts and, in doing so, the livelihood of commercial fish harvesters and communities from coast to coast to coast.

Like the hon. member, this government sees sustaining healthy and productive aquatic ecosystems as a priority. We are also acutely aware of the need to support fish stock conservation efforts and, in so doing, the livelihoods that depend on wise management of our fisheries, oceans and ocean resources.

Accordingly, I appreciate the opportunity to discuss Bill C-251.

Pinnipeds are a group of marine mammals that includes seals, sea lions and walruses. Our government's current approach to pinniped management focuses on a sustainable, well-regulated seal harvest that supports Canada's indigenous, rural, coastal and remote populations. This approach is informed by the best available scientific evidence. Accordingly, management of the harvest is designed to provide economic opportunity to harvesters within a sound scientific framework. There are currently more seals available for harvest under the management approach than are taken by the harvesters, many times more, in fact. This is a gap that we believe we must close.

Turning to Bill C-251, however, I note the bill is primarily targeted at seals, which some commercial fish harvesters view as the cause of slow recovery for some key fish stocks. The bill would require the Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard to develop a framework that includes, among other things, measures to regulate management and control of pinniped populations to establish acceptable levels for pinniped species, address impacts caused by pinniped populations, encourage the use of anti-predator mechanisms and promote year-round controls on pinnipeds.

I respect the desire to protect fish stocks that lies behind Bill C-251 and I recognize the significance of the fish and seafood sector to our economy. In 2021, Canada exported 8.7 billion dollars' worth of fish and seafood to 119 countries around the world, and $6.2 billion of that, over 70%, was to the United States.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, NDP, Carol Hughes]

The time provided for the consideration of Private Members' Business has now expired and the bill is dropped to the bottom of the order of precedence on the Order Paper.

The hon. member will have six minutes and 55 seconds the next time this matter is before the House.

The House resumed from April 28 consideration of the motion that C-251, An Act respecting the development of a federal framework on the conservation of fish stocks and management of pinnipeds, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Fisheries]

Madam Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise today to debate private member's Bill C-251, an act respecting the development of a federal framework on the conservation of fish stocks and management of pinnipeds.

Let me start by saying that I appreciate the passion of the member for Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame on the issue of seal predation. It is something that almost all of us from Atlantic Canada are deeply concerned about, but like most things in the House, it is one where the details really matter.

To date, our approach to pinniped management has focused on a sustainable, well-regulated seal harvest that supports Canada's indigenous, rural, coastal and remote populations. This approach is informed by the best available scientific evidence.

Let us focus on those words: scientific evidence. Would it shock members of the House to learn that the member’s bill does not mention the word “science” once? Perhaps not when you consider that during the time of the last Conservative government, a great deal of cutting and slashing was done in science and to scientists. Indeed, it was what many people in my part of the world called a decade of darkness when it comes to science.

Instead of basing this proposed framework of pinniped management on science, the member suggested an annual census of all pinnipeds. There are 11 different types of pinnipeds in Canada and an annual census would cost the government approximately $30 million a year. I know this was likely not the intent of the member when he wrote the bill, but as I said earlier, in this House details matter, and the bills we pass have consequences.

It is concerning that Bill C-251 does not mention science, not only because of the $30-million-a-year census, but because of our trading partners and what they expect in terms of our management decisions based in science.

Take, for example, the Marine Mammal Protection Act, the MMPA, in the United States. The MMPA contains important measures to reduce the impact of commercial fishing on marine mammals. It is one of the reasons we have worked so hard to protect the endangered North Atlantic right whale and one of my key concerns with the bill.

With no reference to science and an expectation that the government regulate the population of pinnipeds to acceptable levels, this bill could expose Canada and the fish and seafood sector to economic risk that a more protectionist American administration could take advantage of.

Seventy per cent of Canada's fish and seafood exports went to the United States in 2021. I cannot in good conscience support a bill that could create numerous vulnerabilities to this critical industry, an industry that I cherish, that we cherish.

That is why when the sponsor of Bill C-251 moved a motion at the fisheries and oceans committee this past January that we study the issue of pinniped predation, I was pleased to vote for it.

The motion read, in part:

That the committee undertake a comprehensive study of pinnipeds that would examine the ecosystem impacts of pinniped overpopulation in the waters of Quebec, eastern and western Canada; international experience in pinniped stock management; the domestic and international market potential for various pinniped products; social acceptability; and the social cultural importance of developing active management of predation for coastal and first nations communities with access to the resource;

It was to my surprise actually when the member opposite, who said we needed to study this issue in order to address it, came forward with a solution without ever having done the work for it. We would not accept this anywhere else, and it should not fly in Parliament.

There is a clear need for us to grow the market on seal products. I think we would all agree with that. The issue is that last year we had a total allowable catch for harp seals. In 2016. The TAC that year was 400,000 for harp seals, but only 68,317, which is 17% of the quota, were caught. Since 2016, so few have been caught that there no longer is a TAC. In 2021, only 26,545 harp seals, less than half, were caught.

We know that more work needs to be done to address this issue. That is why last month we released the Atlantic Science Seal Task Team report and set out a plan of action on this issue to grow our research capabilities, listen to harvesters and invest in the marketability of seal products.

The right way to address this issue is a whole-of-government approach, which I hope the member opposite will support, rather than through a private member's bill that would have potential serious ramifications.

When we get down to it, the intent of the bill, in my opinion, is flawed. It is not only unnecessary; it is an issue we are already addressing right now in a comprehensive way thanks to the hard work of the Newfoundland and Labrador caucus. We should be talking about how we strengthen the summit that is coming up in the fall, what will come out of the summit and what we are doing to address the report, rather than sending this bill to committee.

Clearly, as has been said before, seals eat fish. They are not vegans. We now have the tools to fill in the knowledge gaps that the task force team identified and invest in the marketability of seal products.

I think we can all agree that we need to tackle this problem thoughtfully, comprehensively, tactically and strategically, with a focus on outcomes, because like everything in the House, the details matter. Sadly, Bill C-251 is just not ready for prime time.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Uqaqtittiji, I am very pleased to represent Nunavut, and I thank my constituents for their continued faith and trust in me to represent them in matters as important as those contained within in this bill.

I take this opportunity to share the meaning of my surname ldlout, pronounced in Inuktitut as illauq. Translated into English, it means “embryo of marine mammals”, like walrus and seals. Indeed, seals have always been important in my life.

Before my main points, I must acknowledge the great work of my colleague, the member for Nanaimo—Ladysmith, who sought my advice on this bill and understands the importance of protecting indigenous people's rights. I must also share my appreciation for the member for Labrador. I have tremendous respect for the effort she has made to destigmatize all seal hunts. I appreciate all her efforts in showing how we all can use seal products in everyday life, including in clothes and jewellery, as a part of our diet and as sources of important vitamins, like omega-3s.

Of course, I thank the sponsor of this bill, the member for Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, for putting this matter before the House and beginning the dialogue.

l would like to talk about three key points regarding this proposed legislation. First is that seal harvests in Canada by non-indigenous people are as important as seal hunts by indigenous people. Next is my personal belief that wildlife harvesting and management must be founded upon and practised through an indigenous lens. Finally, the sustainable management of our natural resources can and should support local and regional economic development.

To give a brief history, after the drastic impact of the anti-seal hunt campaigns, the next link in this chain of damage to our reliance on the seal hunt has been the many comments that I hear from Qallunaat. While Qallunaat translated into English means “white people”, I will use it for all non-indigenous people.

Basically, what we hear from Qallunaat is that they support the indigenous seal hunt, but they do not support the east coast seal hunt. I am quite sure many Inuit are told this. I am quite sure that many Inuit say that this is just as damaging as the initial anti-seal hunt campaigns that decimated the Inuit economy in the 1980s.

What many people do not realize is that the discrimination against the east coast seal harvest is damaging the opportunities to support the economy of Inuit as well. It should not be this way. We are a large, diverse and rich country with enough for everyone. We should support one another in all matters, including the seal harvest or hunt, and the sustainable management of our fish stocks, other wildlife and other natural resources.

For that reason, I am happy to support those who would be directly affected by this legislation, just as I hope they would support Nunavummiut in our pursuit of a healthy, sustainable and prosperous future, and the successful and sustainable management of our natural resources.

I turn now to the need to use the indigenous lens for better wildlife management.

Throughout Canada's first nations, Inuit and Métis communities, people will find a wealth of local knowledge and traditions related to sustainable living and the harvesting of wildlife. This knowledge and these traditions have helped us successfully and sustainably manage our natural resources for millennia in our territories.

In Nunavut, we have Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit, Inuit traditional knowledge, which is the body of knowledge and unique cultural insights of Inuit regarding the workings of nature, humans and animals. The Nunavut Impact Review Board applied the principles of Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit in its decision-making on economic development projects that impact Nunavummiut and recently rejected phase two of the Mary River Mine's proposal to expand the project, which clearly violated these principles.

I encourage the use of similar local indigenous knowledge and principles elsewhere in Canada and for the east coast seal harvest, in particular. However, there is no mention of such traditional and sustainable practices in this bill, and I worry that if it is passed, it would do nothing more than promote a cull of seals instead of a useful harvest that benefits the local populations while ensuring the sustainability of their way of life moving forward.

Finally, my third point is the importance of sustainable management of our natural resources to support local and regional economic development. This final point is where I think the member's well-intentioned bill is far too narrow in its focus.

In the 1970s and throughout the 1980s and 1990s, individuals and groups targeted the livelihood and well-being of Inuit and others living in the north and mounted a fierce campaign against commercial seal harvests. Markets for seal products in the United States and the European Union were practically eliminated overnight thanks to these well-intended but badly misguided campaigns.

To its credit, in 1985, Greenpeace apologized for the unforeseen and negative impact that these campaigns had upon Inuit and non-Inuit harvesting communities, but the damage done has been lasting and severe. I fear that this bill, if passed, would simply encourage more campaigns against our way of life and inflict even more lasting economic damage on our communities since it would likely result in a simple cull rather than a harvest of seal populations.

I think there is a better approach. We should apply the indigenous lens that I spoke of earlier, which embraces the more modern ecosystem approach, to manage our natural resources. Indeed, the indigenous-led approach and ecosystem approach are practically one and the same. By sustainably managing our precious natural resources, such as the various seal populations in our oceans and the fish they consume, we can build confidence in the international community that we are not wastefully killing animals but ethically harvesting them in a sustainable manner that makes use of every part of these beautiful creatures: the fur to keep us warm, the meat to keep us fed and the omega-3 rich oil and other parts that keep us healthy.

We should be better regulating seal products, creating and growing markets abroad, particularly in Europe and China, and using the trade and sale of these products to help Inuit and non-Inuit northern communities improve their standard of living, while protecting our traditional way of life. As this bill proposes, we should conserve fish stocks as well.

Because of these and other issues with the bill, I will not be voting in support of it, but I want to thank the hon. member for Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame for sponsoring this legislation and beginning this important dialogue in this 44th Parliament. I hope we can work together to support our communities and work toward successfully managing seal and fish populations in a way that embraces and protects our traditional ways of life and improves the standard of living of those we represent for generations to come.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Madam Speaker, it is a real privilege to stand in support of a colleague who is sitting right in front of me, the member for Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame. I am honoured to support the bill, and I want to speak to how it would positively impact our northern communities if it passes.

Pinniped harvesting has a long history in Canada, especially for our indigenous and northern communities, and I want to get into exactly that. I will first read one little part of the bill, which explains what we are supporting here tonight. The bill would establish “a federal framework on the conservation of fish stocks and management of pinnipeds.”

There is a bit of a longer paragraph. Subclause 3(1) of the bill states, “The Minister must, in consultation with representatives of the provincial governments responsible for fisheries, the environment and trade, with Indigenous governing bodies and with other relevant stakeholders, develop a federal framework on the conservation of fish stocks and management of pinnipeds.”

Many in the House know I have been working on the conservation of threatened stocks, especially when it relates to my home province of British Columbia, but I also have a role as the northern affairs shadow minister, and I am very concerned about the negative effects on those communities.

I am going to speak about, first of all, our indigenous communities. My NDP colleague down the way already referenced the right to harvest pinnipeds, so I am just going to read something out. This is from a government document from 2017. It is a backgrounder for pinniped harvesting. It states, “Nevertheless, subsistence harvests are in effect for these three species because 'Indigenous peoples in Canada have a constitutionally protected right to harvest marine mammals, including seals, as long as the harvest is consistent with conservation needs and other requirements.'”

Supporting the member down the way, we absolutely support those rights, and we support that way of life and the ability to continue on.

We have a long history of harvesting in Canada, and another quote from that same document states, “'[f]or thousands of years, seals have provided food, clothing and heat for people living in challenging northern regions' and continue to do so for many Indigenous peoples and northern communities.” It continues, “In the Arctic, sealing continues to play an important role in Inuit life, which can be seen in 'the rich vocabulary in the Inuktitut language for different species, varieties and characteristics of seals.'”

I think we all recognize this is an important part of culture in our country and it is an important part of our future. Again, the member is wishing to have it come back to the way it once was, but let me speak to the problems with what happened to the industry.

Back in 1972, the U.S. had the Marine Mammal Protection Act, which basically closed out access of the pinniped harvest and pinniped products to the North American market and our American friends. There were huge impacts to that industry. Most of the folks affected were in northern communities and indigenous communities that made their living from harvesting pinnipeds. That was the first blow to the industry.

I am going to get into some numbers in a minute, but I want to talk about the second blow, which was really dramatic. In 2009, we had the European ban on pinniped products. What I am getting at is that, even though we had rights that were protected by our constitution for indigenous communities to harvest pinnipeds, we saw the market absolutely collapse. That really collapsed the entire economy around pinnipeds in this country.

I have some evidence of what happened. In 2004 there was a landed value, which is for Canadian pinniped values. In 2004, it was $14,862,415. By 2006, it had grown to $30 million, and then there was the absolute collapse. By 2015, it had gone down to $1,126,912. It was absolutely a massive collapse of the market.

The member for Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame is trying to get that industry back on its feet again. The reason we are talking about this tonight, and I am about defending the bill, is the effects of having an out-of-control pinniped population on our coasts.

We have members on all sides of the House that say they care about salmon and southern resident killer whales and all the rest, but guess what eats a lot of fish. Killer whales eat fish too, but when pinnipeds are absolutely collapsing stocks of other fish, sometimes there is not much left for those other species to eat because there is an overpopulation, a massive imbalance in the ecosystem as a result of this harvest basically ceasing to exist. It still happens, but on a much smaller scale.

The member is trying to have an answer to the imbalance in the ecosystem and for an industry that has been flattened and the communities that have been negatively affected by this collapse. How about we do something in Parliament? We have that agreement across the way, but I am hearing from the Liberals and NDP now that they are pulling back their support, which is interesting because this industry is so key in their communities. It is so easy to support, and I am surprised that they would be pulling back their support at this time.

Again, what the member is trying to do is a positive change for not only the pinniped industry but also the communities that benefit from it. I want to read one part of the bill to highlight a specific section for those who say they care about conservation and threatened stocks. Subclause 3(1) reads, “The Minister must, in consultation with representatives of the provincial governments responsible for fisheries, the environment and trade, with Indigenous governing bodies and with other relevant stakeholders develop a federal framework on the conservation of fish stocks”, which is the crux of the whole bill.

First of all, we are going to help fish stocks big time. For salmon, we call it the brick wall of pinnipeds on our coastlines, and not many get through. Again, if the government is talking big about conservation and really doing something positive for the ecosystem and for salmon as an example on both coasts, this is the answer to that. The other benefit that benefits both communities in a huge way is that we would get our pinniped industry back again.

My hope is, especially for members affected in Newfoundland and in the north in the territories, which are affected by having a positive pinniped industry, that they will have some really long thoughts about the consideration of supporting the bill. It is great. It is going to be good for every coastline that we have. It will be positive for the communities that reside on the coastlines and in our north.

For the sake of my fellow member on fisheries and oceans, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, my hope is that we can all come to an agreement and support the bill.

[Yvonne Jones, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources and to the Minister of Northern Affairs]

Madam Speaker, there is nothing like a good motion on seals to get some debate going in the House of Commons.

I think this has been the story of our legacy in Canada since the 1980s whenever the word “seal” popped up in the context of Atlantic Canada, northern Canada or Quebec. The fact that people depended upon it for their livelihood or the potential for product has always stirred tremendous amounts of debate. The member for Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame has stimulated some good debate around seals again.

I am happy to speak to this motion, because I really believe that this bill comes from a place of wanting to do something to protect the ecosystems of the ocean and to build upon a good product that could be a very good source of protein and oil for many around the world. We see that as well. We see that as members. I listened to my colleague, the member for Nunavut, when she spoke very eloquently about the industry. Like me, she grew up in this industry. It has been the source of food, clothing and heat for so many generations and centuries of Inuit people, coastal people and people around different ocean areas of Canada.

Since 1986, we have had more than 20 particular studies, reports and committees on seals, starting with “Seals and Sealing in Canada”. The whole purpose of that first report was to identify the dependency upon on seal and sealing in Canada, and the people who depended on that resource.

Unfortunately, since 1986 nothing has really generated out of the sealing industry because of the activist groups, the protests and animal rights groups that identified indigenous people and people who hunt for seal as barbaric. They were identified as people who had no respect for the ocean or for the environment. That was completely wrong.

Their actions not only caused us to have a problem of the overpredation of seals we have today, but also their actions erased the livelihoods of so many people in northern and coastal communities who depended on the hunt, and so many indigenous people as well.

Today, we have a problem in Canada where our ocean ecosystem is not being protected. Our ocean ecosystem of fish species is being depleted by the overpredation of seals. I want to give some information that comes right from DFO reports. It says that, commercially, in Newfoundland and Labrador, we take a little over 200,000 metric ton of fish in a commercial year in a fishery. Gray seals alone are eating 1.6 million metric tons of fish.

That is 1.6 million metric tons being taken by seals, but only 200,000 metric tons being taken by commercial fishers. That is why we have a problem in the ocean ecosystem. That is why we have capelin stocks that are going down. That is why, for 30 years in Newfoundland and Labrador, we have cod stocks that have not rebuilt. That is why fishermen are constantly sending pictures of crab grounds where crab stocks are falling, but seals are being found with their stomachs full of small crab and full of shrimp. They are consuming the shellfish populations, which is now provoking a decline. Where I live, the most beautiful rivers in the world for salmon, we see seal in the salmon rivers. It is a problem.

I know where my colleague is coming from in identifying the problem and that it needs to be fixed. That is why the minister had the task force on seals. She actually commissioned a number of people across Newfoundland and Labrador. The task force was completed and the recommendations are in. I have to say that she is the first federal fisheries minister I have ever heard stand up and admit that seals eat fish.

At one time we had a minister named John Efford from Newfoundland and Labrador in this honourable House. He was not the minister of fisheries at the time, but he told people over and over again that seals eat fish, that they do not eat turnips. Like my colleague from Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame said, “They don't eat Mary Brown's.” No, they do not. They eat fish. Finally we have a minister who has recognized that and agrees. Now we need to do something about it. The summit that will be launched by the Government of Canada through the minister is to deal with just that.

I support the premise of my colleague's bill. I think it comes from a place of recognition. He recognizes there is a problem, as I do. We also know that we cannot have a bill that talks about managing the industry and that talks about “year-round control of pinnipeds in order to manage their numbers and mitigate the detrimental effect these marine mammals are having” on the ocean. I think that is where my colleague from Nunavut was coming from. Yes, that concerns me as well.

I think that whatever we do has to be based on science. It has to be with input from indigenous people and from the industry. I believe it has to be linked to product development and to markets. That means there is a lot of work to do. I am finally pleased to say that we are prepared to do that work. I am pleased to see that my colleague is interested in working with us to make that happen, as I am pleased to see the member for Nunavut is willing to work with us to make that happen.

I want to appeal to all of those out there who want to act on conservation and who have a conscience when it comes to conservation. We live in a country today where our ocean ecosystem is in danger. Today is World Oceans Day, a day when we stand up to protect the oceans. Since the 1980s, no one has stood up to protect the people who fell through the cracks due to the activism against the seal industry. Our people suffered. They suffered and they suffer today. Today we would have an industry and we would not have an ocean predation problem, but because the activists won out and beat down the ordinary individuals who live in northern indigenous and coastal communities, that did not happen.

Today here in this House we have a problem and we need to deal with that problem. I say to the member opposite that if his bill passes second reading and goes to committee, I will be happy to propose some amendments to the bill that would include consultation with indigenous peoples, that would include the industry and that would make sure that it is based on science.

In the meantime, I will be there to support the Minister of Fisheries in the work that we are doing as a government because it is important work. It will involve engaging the industry. It will involve developing good markets for seal proteins, seal oils and seal products. It will include making sure that we have good products, good markets and a good industry that will support all of the people in Canada who depend upon seals.

For us, seals are sacred, so we take this seriously, but so are our oceans. We need to protect them and create balance. There is a lot of work to do here. I hope that my colleagues will see that important work and support the options that the government has laid out.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Madam Speaker, it is an honour to rise today to speak to Bill C-251 put forward by my friend and colleague, the hon. member for Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame.

The hon. member continues important work undertaken by his predecessor, Mr. Scott Simms, who served in the House from 2004 to 2021. In addition to being chair of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, Mr. Simms was also instrumental in the passage of Bill S-208, in 2017, to establish a national seal products day.

It has been and continues to be an honour to work with the members for Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, and I am grateful for their unyielding commitment to conservation and sound fisheries management for indigenous and coastal communities in Newfoundland and Labrador and beyond.

Bill C-251 proposes to establish a requirement for the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans to develop a federal framework on the conservation of fish stocks and management of pinnipeds.

At the outset, I note that this bill's proposed requirement, I believe, is necessitated by the refusal of successive Liberal fisheries ministers to make management decisions needed to conserve and restore Canada's fisheries. In particular, I am talking about fisheries being decimated by populations of pinnipeds, like seals and sea lions, that government inaction has allowed to grow unmanaged.

What is the problem that this bill is seeking to remedy? Well, pinniped populations on Canada's coasts have been allowed to expand unchecked through decades of anti-use and anti-harvest ideologies. As pinniped populations have increased, their impacts, especially predation, have caused a domino effect of imbalances throughout ecosystems and food webs. What my colleague is seeking with this legislation is what I believe all parties want: timely and effective fisheries management to restore balance and to conserve and rebuild Canada's fish stocks.

In the face of sound science, this government has refused to accept or produce a plan to manage pinniped populations that are exacting a great toll on fish stocks, including some that are in critical states. It is as if successive fisheries ministers of this government have chosen to ignore the reality that has been described and defined by scientists, experts, indigenous and non-indigenous fishers and Canadians across our country.

For instance, three years ago, in 2019, the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, known as FOPO, received testimony from Mr. Robert Bison, a fisheries biologist with the Government of British Columbia. Mr. Bison spoke to the plight of steelhead in B.C. and stated that the “evidence to date suggests that the most likely causes responsible for the decline and survival of abundance include an increase in predation in the inshore marine habitats; increased predation from marine mammals, particularly pinnipeds”.

Mr. Bison went on to testify that all factors of steelhead declines are partially or wholly human-induced effect and that the increase in pinniped populations particularly is largely attributed to marine mammal protection in both Canada and the U.S. He also testified that, in terms of the evidence of causal factors, pinniped predation in the inshore waters actually ranked among the strongest causal factor, not only for steelhead, but for many salmon populations as well.

At the fisheries committee's meeting on June 5, 2019, Dr. Eric Taylor of the University of British Columbia also appeared. In his testimony, Dr. Taylor stated that he supported bold action required to deal with the pinniped issue. He said, “That there may be some uncertainty as to the exact effect of pinnipeds is exactly why bold action is needed.” He want to say, “Instead of residing in this sort of atmosphere of speculation, we can actually provide some management actions to reduce numbers in an experimental approach to try to understand the situation better.”

Here we have two experienced fisheries experts describing to parliamentarians how increased pinniped populations are directly damaging fish populations, including some that are in critical or worse conditions.

At the same meeting in which Mr. Bison and Dr. Taylor provided their testimony, DFO’s director for the Pacific region, Ms. Rebecca Reid, also appeared as a witness and provided testimony that clearly reflected the government’s refusal to manage known and detrimental ecosystem factors, such as pinniped predation in order to support conservation and recoveries of wild fish and marine species.

In her testimony, Ms. Reid told the committee:

In our view, the question about pinnipeds is outstanding. We have done some work. There has been a recent symposium. There is some additional work going on. I would say that the impact of pinnipeds on these species is not entirely clear.

That was three years ago, and the government and its officials continue to stonewall pinniped management actions to save fish populations like Fraser River steelhead and Pacific salmon from being wiped out by out-of-control populations of pinnipeds.

In 2020, Dr. Carl Walters from the University of British Columbia’s Institute for the Oceans and Fisheries appeared at the fisheries committee. Dr. Walters has been doing research on Pacific salmon populations for over 50 years, focused particularly on understanding why there have been severe declines in salmon and herring populations.

Dr. Walters testified how he has come to believe that the declines have been substantially due to massive increases in seal and sea lion populations and their predation impacts as the number of pinnipeds on the Pacific coast today is probably double what it was for the last several thousand years, when first nations people harvested them intensively.

Dr. Walters described how major increases in Steller sea lion populations in B.C. waters outside the Georgia Strait have contributed to Fraser sockeye declines and collapses of two of B.C.’s major herring stocks on the west coast of Vancouver Island and Haida Gwaii. Scientists like Dr. Walters are not only raising the alarm over pinniped populations but they are also proposing viable solutions.

Dr. Walters contributed to one such proposal that he helped the Pacific Balance Pinniped Society develop for commercial and first nations harvesting of seals and sea lions, which is aimed at reducing these pinniped populations and sustaining them at the levels that existed when first nations harvesting maintained balances at ecosystems levels.

As Mr. Bison testified, increases in pinniped populations particularly are largely human induced and attributed to marine mammal protection in both Canada and the U.S. I assume the human decision-makers of the day had good intentions when they introduced protections for marine mammals, but as the decision-makers of today, what are our intentions?

Should we be following science data? Should we take action as pinnipeds in B.C. waters drive our steelhead and salmon populations to extinction? Should we expect the government direction to drive recovery of cod and mackerel stocks in Canada’s Atlantic waters? Should indigenous communities have the right to participate in restoring ecosystem balance through predator management?

From my Conservative colleagues and me, the answers to these four questions are yes, yes, yes and yes. As we see many of Canada's fish stocks continue to decline under the current management regime of preservation based on ideologies instead of conservation based on science, I hope members from all parties will agree that action, not just more studies and talk, needs to happen in our waters to rebuild fish stocks.

I hope hon. colleagues from all parties will support this bill and vote yes, because it is necessary. Timely and effective pinniped management is necessary to restore balance in ecosystems to give our fisheries, the fishers and the communities that depend on them a chance to survive.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleagues for engaging in this very important debate on the future of balance and biodiversity in our ocean ecosystems and the impact that it has on the coastal and indigenous groups who rely on them.

Since the 1970s, pinniped populations have risen exponentially on the east and west coasts of Canada as harvesting virtually ended. The indigenous communities that relied on selling pinniped products saw their markets disappear as a result of foreign sanctions on Canadian seal products and witnessed the destruction of their way of life. As pinniped populations rose, commercial and sport fishers took vast conservation measures, and in fact completely stopped harvesting some species, such as Atlantic salmon and northern cod. These conservation measures have not worked, because pinnipeds know no seasons and have few natural predators.

In Atlantic Canada, for example, Canadian science says that seals consume 24 times the total commercial yearly catch. Norwegian science suggests seals consume double that amount. Seal populations in Atlantic Canada total over 10 million; once, that figure was less than two million. Seals now live in our estuaries, waiting to clean out what is left of our struggling Atlantic salmon.

On the west coast of Canada, seal and sea lion populations have increased tenfold. These populations now consume 50% of young salmon and steelhead as they enter the ocean and millions of returning adults every year. This destroys the livelihoods of indigenous fishers, the vast sport fishing industry and the commercial fishery. Even southern resident killer whales that rely on salmon to survive and feed their young are being out-competed for food.

Bill C-251, an act respecting the development of a federal framework on the conservation of fish stocks and management of pinnipeds, is meant to address these issues and help restore balance by managing pinniped populations. With indigenous involvement, we can educate the world about the ecological and cultural disaster that is taking place. The framework that gets developed under this bill will ensure that the government works to break down trade barriers to our products so that we can harvest pinnipeds and have full utilization to supply healthy protein, oil and eco-friendly clothing to world markets.

I have listened to questions and concerns raised by my parliamentary colleagues regarding aspects of Bill C-251 and I am open to amendments when this bill gets to committee. Some have suggested that this bill could result in a cull. There is no language in this bill calling for a cull, but at committee the language can be firmed up to ensure this.

Others have mentioned they do not like the clause about anti-predator mechanisms. That clause can go.

The minister said she cannot support the bill because the yearly cost of the census will be over $30 million. The clause calling for a yearly census can be amended out of this bill as well.

A minister from my province recently said that harvesting seals could lead to sanctions against our seafood products; Norway hunts seals and whales and is the second-largest supplier of seafood to the U.S. market, but activists mislead our politicians to believe that if we harvest pinnipeds, we will be sanctioned. Right now Russia is pumping unsanctioned crab into that very same market, so we should have no fear of hollow-threat sanctions.

Another MP told me I should be happy that this bill has raised awareness, that the minister has committed to another study and a conference, and that the bill is not needed now. Awareness will not restore indigenous livelihoods or return balance to our oceans.

Governments come and go. They make promises to take action, to complete more science and the like, but indigenous and fishing industry stakeholders have witnessed the results of years of empty promises, inaction and lack of direction in pinniped management.

Our coastal and indigenous communities are counting on all members of this House to support this bill at second reading so that they can come to the table and fine-tune it at committee. The framework it would create would restore our culture, our livelihoods and the biodiversity of our oceans, and bring this ecological disaster to an end.

I encourage all members of this House to put party politics aside and vote for the greater good of all our coastal and indigenous communities.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

The question is on the motion.

If a member of a recognized party present in the House wishes to request a recorded division or that the motion be adopted on division, I would invite them to rise and indicate it to the Chair.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Madam Speaker, I request a recorded division.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

Pursuant to order made on Thursday, November 25, 2021, the division stands deferred until Wednesday, June 15, 2022, at the expiry of the time provided for Oral Questions.

Sitting Suspended

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès), Liberal, Alexandra Mendes]

We will suspend until 6:30 p.m.

(The sitting of the House was suspended at 6:21 p.m.)

(The House resumed at 6:30 p.m.)

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-19, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on April 7, 2022 and other measures, be read the third time and passed, and of the amendment.