Bill C-273

An Act to amend the Criminal Code (Corinne’s Quest and the protection of children)

This enactment amends the Criminal Code to repeal a provision that authorizes the correction of a child by force if certain criteria are met.

[Daniel Zekveld, Policy Analyst, Association for Reformed Political Action Canada]

Good morning. Thank you for inviting us to speak to you today regarding Bill C-273.

ARPA Canada believes Parliament must not repeal section 43 of the Criminal Code. I want to address this topic of corporal discipline in three brief points.

The first point, which underlies the rest of the conversation on corporal discipline, is about parental authority. The family has both natural and pre-political authority. That's why the Canadian Bill of Rights refers to “the position of the family in a society of free men and free institutions”, and why the Universal Declaration of Human Rights calls the family “the natural and fundamental group unit of society”. Respecting parental authority and family integrity means not interfering in families, particularly through the criminal law, without clearly compelling reasons.

Professor Melissa Moschella uses the analogy of intervening by force in another sovereign nation. She explains that the international community must respect the authority of sovereign states, but also has an obligation to help their people when they need it. Coercive interference in any circumstance requires extremely strong justification, such as serious human rights abuses or threatening the peace of other sovereign states. Likewise, every political community consists of families with their own authority. Although parental authority may be imperfect at times, the state must not intervene coercively, except in cases of serious abuse and neglect where parents are clearly failing to fulfill their role.

As mentioned already, Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin, writing for the Supreme Court of Canada in 2004, said:

...without s. 43, Canada’s broad assault law would criminalize force falling far short of what we think of as corporal punishment, like placing an unwilling child in a chair for a five-minute “time-out”. The decision not to criminalize such conduct is not grounded in devaluation of the child, but in a concern that to do so risks ruining lives and breaking up families—a burden that in large part would be borne by children and outweigh any benefit derived from applying the criminal process.

My second point is that there is no adequate evidence that parents who use careful, measured corporal discipline are failing in their role as parents in a way that would merit state intrusion or prosecution of parents, which would cause serious disruption and harm children. Studies on corporal discipline often confuse the cause-and-effect relationship between corporal discipline and children's outcomes. Some studies assume that corporal discipline causes aggressive behaviour based on a correlation. However, it could be that aggressive children were disciplined more because they were more aggressive, rather than the reverse. Many studies fail to distinguish between harsh physical punishment and the measured physical discipline permitted by Canadian law. Not all forms of physical discipline are the same or have the same effects.

Before criminalizing corporal discipline, lawmakers should at least have strong evidence to demonstrate that it is much less effective than other methods. However, some studies have shown that physical discipline within reasonable limits is as good as or better than many other disciplinary tactics. The outcomes for children who receive corporal discipline depend on the type of discipline and on whether the family has a consistent set of guidelines for when and how corporal discipline is used.

Finally, other jurisdictions reveal that banning corporal discipline causes problems. For example, one Swedish psychiatrist argues that banning corporal discipline may make parents less willing to discipline or correct their children in any way. Since Sweden banned spanking, its rate of assaults of minors has increased dramatically. Examples from Austria and Germany show that parents who thought mild forms of corporal discipline were legal were less likely to resort to severe punishment than those who thought it was illegal. When no corporal discipline is permitted, parents may be more lenient until they reach a breaking point. Prohibitions on corporal discipline may also increase verbal hostility by parents, or increase the number of parents who are unable to control their children's behaviour. As such, permitting corporal discipline within reasonable boundaries, as Canada does, may prevent negative consequences.

In conclusion, this committee should support retaining section 43 of the Criminal Code. Doing so would align with the Supreme Court of Canada in respecting the responsibility of parents and the different ways parents may choose to raise their children. That said, if the committee believes further clarity is needed in section 43, the Criminal Code could be amended to include the Supreme Court's clarification about what constitutes reasonable force. These limits strike an appropriate balance that allows parents to raise their children as they see fit while also ensuring children are protected.

Thank you again for the opportunity to appear today. We're looking forward to any questions.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

To begin, I would like to say that we're meeting on the unceded traditional territory of the Anishinabe Algonquin people. It's extremely important to recognize this because we're talking about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's call to action 6. So it's extremely important to take that into account at all times.

The purpose of Bill C-273 is to repeal section 43 of the Criminal Code, which gives justification to use “force by way of correction” towards children. Section 43 was codified in 1892, having descended from English common law, which allowed parents and schoolmasters to inflict physical punishment “for the purpose of correcting what is evil in the child”.

Section 43 violates children's basic human rights to protection under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which Canada ratified in 1991. Nine years ago, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada called physical punishment “a relic of a discredited past [that] has no place in Canadian schools or homes”, and called for the repeal of section 43 to remove the green light that has enabled so much violence against children.

The research on physical punishment is robust. Physical punishment consistently predicts solely negative developmental outcomes: higher aggression, more mental health problems, slower intellectual development and weaker parent-child relationships. More than 75 peer-reviewed studies have indicated this, and after I testify today you will hear from Professor Durrant and Ms. Butler, who will speak more to that.

Mild physical punishment easily escalates into more severe violence. Children who are slapped or spanked are seven times more likely to experience severe violence than those who are not slapped or spanked. Section 43 tells us that hurting another person is an acceptable and justifiable way to resolve conflict. Children who are physically punished are more likely to engage in dating violence and partner violence in later life because they have learned to respond to conflict with physical aggression.

Parenting groups and teachers argue that section 43 serves as a protection when they need to physically restrain a child, but defences are already available to parents, teachers and caregivers when they use force to defend themselves or another person: section 34 of the Criminal Code to protect property, section 35 of the Criminal Code to prevent the immediate commission of an offence and section 27 of the Criminal Code in response to imminent peril or danger when there is no available legal alternative, which is the common law defence of necessity.

There's strong support for change. Seven hundred organizations across all sectors support the repeal of section 43. They include all major organizations in health care, dentists, doctors, nurses and all of the major organizations in Canada that have taken on the development of kids as their fundamental role.

To date, 65 countries and 18 other regions have prohibited all physical punishment of children. In countries where research has been carried out, there has been no increase in criminal prosecutions or child welfare apprehensions in minor cases. Decreases have been shown in the support for and use of physical punishment. That is important. Why are we lagging behind in banning the physical punishment of children?

My bill has also received support overseas. Members of this committee would have received from organizations in the past few weeks support for Bill C-273, including Human Rights Watch and the World Health Organization. We also have a number of international individuals who have written to this committee expressing support for Bill C-273. It's important to note that countries and regions like Wales, New Zealand and Ireland did not see an increase in prosecutions against parents and teachers since the passing of their legislation to ban physical punishment to children.

Finally, I'd like to quote the Honourable Murray Sinclair, who spoke to this issue seven years ago when we were looking at a previous iteration of the same bill. Murray Sinclair said the following:

At one Indian residential school in Alberta, a teacher was charged with assaulting a student by punching him three times in the face, causing serious injury. The teacher had been convicted of assault at trial but was acquitted on appeal by a court which held that the degree of force that he used was reasonable. That case set the tone for how all children in residential schools were treated thereafter.

It's time to repeal section 43. I look forward to your questions.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you, Madame Gladu.

(Motion agreed to)

That's unanimous. Thank you so much. I love this. I hope it will continue throughout the morning.

Welcome to meeting number 100 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Pursuant to the order adopted by the House on February 14, 2024, the committee is meeting in public to begin its study of Bill C-273, an act to amend the Criminal Code (Corinne's Quest and the protection of children).

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 15, 2023. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. Those on Zoom have been tested for the sound, and it is in order.

First, I want to welcome Peter Julian, the member of Parliament for New Westminster-Burnaby and the sponsor of Bill C-273.

Welcome to the committee. You have five minutes to present to the committee, which will be followed by questions, in the normal course, from members of the committee.

Mr. Julian, the floor is yours.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Good morning, everyone.

I have one small item before we start the normal meeting. That is to approve the budget request for the study we are starting today on Bill C-273, which has been circulated to all members.

Children's Rights

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Madam Speaker, Bill C-273 passed, by a vote of 209 to 115, this week for a second reading in Parliament. I thank all those MPs who spoke up for this bill and for the repeal of section 43 of the Criminal Code.

Canada is finally taking our first steps in joining 65 other countries around the world that have banned the use of force against children. More than 700 organizations across Canada, including every major organization that works for children's health and well-being, have called for the repeal of this legalized use of force against children.

The repeal of this provision of the Criminal Code was one of the first recommendations of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Call to action no. 6 of the TRC calls for repeal of the provision, which legalizes the use of force against children. This provision was put in place in 1892, when all kinds of abuses were legal. It is high time to change that and time to repeal section 43.

Canada Early Learning and Child Care Act

[Ben Carr, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Madam Speaker, I am very sorry to interrupt the current affairs of the chamber. I am back again, this time with a tie and jacket on as per House rules. I tried to tell you before, when I was not dressed appropriately, that I had a technical issue on the last vote being held today, which was on Bill C-273, and my intention is to vote in favour.

Therefore, I am asking for unanimous consent from the House to register my vote in favour of Bill C-273, and I apologize for the delay that this has caused in House proceedings.

Criminal Code

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, Carol Hughes]

The House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred recorded division on the motion at second reading stage of Bill C‑273 under Private Members' Business.

The House resumed from February 13 consideration of the motion that Bill C‑273, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (Corinne's Quest and the protection of children), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Justice

[Justin Trudeau, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my hon. colleague for the question. This is an issue we are all concerned about.

I can assure everyone that the government is unwavering in its commitment to ensuring the protection and physical safety of children across the country. We therefore support Bill C‑273 and its important purpose of protecting our children against violence and abuse. We look forward to hearing the experts during study in committee of this important legislation that we will support in a few minutes.

[Alain Rayes, Independent, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Mr. Speaker, after question period, every member will have the opportunity to rise to vote on the NDP's Bill C‑273 to repeal section 43 of the Criminal Code, which allows an adult to use corporal punishment on a child for so-called educational purposes.

More than 65 countries in the world have done this and 27 others have initiated the process. It is what the UN committee on the protection of children has called for. Call to action 6 of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada is calling for it, as is the Canadian Medical Association.

Can the Prime Minister confirm that his government will support this initiative to protect our children?

Criminal Code

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Madam Speaker, tomorrow, we have an important task. We are going to hold a vote on the principle of Bill C-273, which seeks to ban corporal punishment of children in Canada and repeal the section of the Criminal Code that has existed since 1892 that allows for corporal punishment of children. One of my colleagues just said that this bill needs to be amended. Tomorrow, we will vote on the principle, but amendments can certainly be presented in committee.

In addition, it is important to mention, as my colleague from Winnipeg Centre just did, that 700 organizations across the country want MPs from Quebec and across Canada to vote in favour of the bill tomorrow. Dozens of those organizations are in Quebec, such as the Association des centres jeunesse du Québec, the Association des CLSC et des CHSLD du Québec, the Association des médecins en protection de l'enfance du Québec, the Association québécoise des centres de la petite enfance au Québec, and many others. They want us to vote in favour because they understand the impact of these punishments. Corporal punishment is linked to widespread and lasting personal and societal harm. As the organizations point out, 75% of substantiated cases of physical abuse in Canada are linked to corporal punishment. These organizations make it abundantly clear that section 43 of the Criminal Code must be repealed.

Other countries are doing the same. It is important to point that out. Countries like Korea, Colombia, Japan, South Africa, France, Ireland, Argentina, Brazil, Poland and Spain have abolished corporal punishment of children. Tomorrow's vote in principle on the bill will allow us to join 65 countries around the world that have already held these debates and decided that section 43 of the Criminal Code should be abolished.

I wanted to shout out to Corinne's Quest; Kathy and John Lynn of New Westminster, British Columbia; and all the organizations that have called for the abolition of section 43 of the Criminal Code. They have done that as the Truth and Reconciliation Commission tells us to in its call to action 6. After the horrendous genocide that happened in residential schools, they are saying now is the time to move forward on call to action 6. As my colleagues have mentioned, it has been eight years since those calls to action were issued.

There has not been one call to action that has been advanced since 2022, and this means that members of Parliament tomorrow will have the ability to vote in principle on moving forward on call to action 6; removing section 43 of the Criminal Code, which dates back to 1892; and finally putting in place the kind of atmosphere for kids that we need to see in our country.

I mentioned earlier many of the national organizations that are calling on parliamentarians to abolish section 43. They include the Anglican Church of Canada, Big Brothers Big Sisters, the Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies, occupational therapists, pediatric health centres, pediatric nurses, social workers, the Canadian Mental Health Association, the Canadian Red Cross, the YMCA, the YWCA and more than 65 countries that have called for the same thing, because they know that 75% of substantiated physical abuse cases in Canada arise from incidents of physical punishment.

They say very clearly that it is time for Canada to move beyond an aspect of the Criminal Code that was put in place in 1892. It is time to heed the calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. It is time to put in place call to action 6. It is time to learn from the past.

Tomorrow, members of Parliament will have an important vote, the vote in principle to move forward from this aspect of the Criminal Code that justifies physical punishment of children.

I hope that all those voices are heard and I hope that members of Parliament vote yes on Bill C-273.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Madam Speaker, I would like to start by noting that, this evening and in past debate, we have heard really clear calls for how important this bill is, in particular from our hon. colleague the member for Nunavut tonight. The member for Winnipeg Centre further made clear that case.

With the limited time that I have, the contribution I would like to make to this debate is really focused on the importance of listening to indigenous leaders, particularly with respect to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action.

In my view, Bill C-273 is an offer to all parliamentarians to move ahead with the TRC's calls to actions. For my part, I have committed to fully implementing them, as has the Green Party of Canada.

I will read out, once again, call to action 6: “We call upon the Government of Canada to repeal Section 43 of the Criminal Code of Canada.”

This is exactly what Bill C-273 seeks to do.

As background, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission issued 94 calls to action back in 2015 and progress has been absurdly slow. At the current pace, the calls will not be completed until 2081, yet every party in this House of Commons has committed to fully implementing the calls.

I will summarize them now. In 2015, then-leader of the Liberal Party of Canada, now the Prime Minister, said, “On behalf of the Liberal Party of Canada and our parliamentary caucus, I affirm our unwavering support for the TRC’s recommendations, and call on the Government of Canada to take immediate action to implement them.”

That is being applauded by a member from the governing party. I would remind that member that call to action 6 is exactly what this bill is calling for. I certainly hope that this government will be supporting Bill C-273.

As for the Conservative Party, in 2021, Erin O'Toole, then-leader of the Conservative Party, pledged a plan to implement all Truth and Reconciliation calls to action. I assume that included call to action 6.

As for the Bloc Québécois, in 2021, in their platform, Bloc MPs would pressure the federal government to implement all recommendations from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

In the same campaign, 2021, the leader of the NDP committed to fully implement all outstanding recommendations from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. An NDP MP, in fact, is bringing forward a bill here to work toward doing so.

The leader of the Green Party of Canada, the member for Saanich—Gulf Islands, pledged the same thing.

In short, I hope that my colleagues follow through on the commitments of their parties and those that I know they personally, I am sure, have also made.

Certainly, I hope, at the very least, that this would get to committee. This is the second time now, in my time as an MP, that I am seeing this gap between commitments to follow the TRC calls to action and opportunities that MPs have to do so.

The last time was on Bill C-5. One of the TRC calls to action, call to action 32, is to remove mandatory minimum penalties. Of course, Bill C-5 removed some but not all of them. That was not what was in call to action 32. It was to follow through on removing all of them.

Once again, though, in this vote on Bill C-273, parliamentarians will have another opportunity. For those who have pledged to pressure the government to do so, this is now being offered. An MP has put forward a bill that would directly call to repeal section 43 of the Criminal Code. That is call to action 6.

I would hope that colleagues would support this bill and, in doing so, move us one very small step closer toward following through on all 94 calls to action of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission from back in 2015. We are now in 2024. We need to move more quickly. Here is one chance to do so.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Madam Speaker, I am happy to stand today to speak to Bill C-273, an act to amend the Criminal Code.

I want to thank my colleague, the MP for New Westminster—Burnaby, for putting forward this important legislation, as well as the MP for Nunavut, who spoke recently to the bill, and now my colleague, the member for Winnipeg Centre. Both are incredibly strong voices in this chamber.

As we know, the physical punishment of children is still legal in Canada. I am a mother of two. My daughter, Makayla, is now 21, and my son is 16, so it hits my heart, and I believe it hits the hearts of many parents and people who care for children and youth across the country. Children should not have to live in fear of or experience physical punishment at home, at school or anywhere in our communities, and we know the detrimental impacts when they do.

Findings from a joint statement that was put forward by Canadians, and it sounds like my colleague was saying it was 700 organizations, including Family Service Canada, the Canadian Institute of Child Health and the Canadian Public Health Association, among others, show that there is no clear evidence that the use of physical punishment has any benefit to children and youth whatsoever. In fact, the findings show the opposite, that physical punishment on children places them at increased risk of not only physical harm but also poor mental health and increased negative impacts in areas such as moral values and challenges in adjusting into adulthood. I think our children and youth have a lot going on in today's world, and it is just an additional burden on so many children to have to deal with physical violence. To make matters worse, we know that physical punishment, regardless of the degree of the punishment, carries an increased risk of the escalation of violence.

There are 60 countries around the world that have banned the practice of physical punishment on children and youth, and this number continues to grow. Despite this, Canada is lagging behind on essential legislation to protect children.

This is not new. We know that Corinne Robertshaw, a lawyer for the federal government, saw first-hand the impacts of allowing physical punishment of children, with the death and injury of children in the 1970s and 1980s. Her advocacy continues today through dedicated volunteers for Corinne's Quest, which works to protect children and advocate for the repeal of section 43 of the Criminal Code of Canada.

Section 43 of the Criminal Code states, “Every schoolteacher, parent or person standing in the place of a parent is justified in using force by way of correction toward a pupil or child, as the case may be, who is under his care, if the force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances.”

Now, I am certain many in this chamber today are having the same response to this section of the Criminal Code that I am. Again, the wording “force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances” is so far from clear. Also, with “force by way of correction”, there is so much room for interpretation, and it is leaving our children and youth at risk as a result.

We are seeing the devastating impacts of this outdated section of the Criminal Code across the country. For example, we see reports as well as evidence of horrific abuses of children and youth in schools from the very people entrusted to care for our children. We have seen reports of children being isolated and inappropriately restrained, causing physical and emotional harm, with little to no consequences for those who committed these acts. We know that this section of the Criminal Code does nothing to protect our children.

I would like to clarify that we are not talking about the actions required to protect children from themselves or others in school, for example. We are talking about physical acts of punishment, which we know clearly have no benefit for children.

I worked in schools for many years. Unfortunately, the stories that we often do not want to share are about the fact that sometimes there are circumstances in which a child is a potential harm to themselves and we have to do our duty as the adults and as educators.

As an example, I was working with a youth who was struggling and unable to make the judgment to not run into traffic. I had to, with care, hold on to his arm to ensure that he did not harm himself and run into traffic. There are examples where, of course, there needs to be carefully thought-out care provided to children, but this is not what we are talking about.

What we are talking about today is physical punishment. I want to make sure that is very clear. There are so many educational professionals across the country who go above and beyond to keep our kids safe and happy and their brains and bodies active. Educators need the capacity to keep children safe. I know that first-hand. At the same time, this section is causing more problems than it is good.

Of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's recommendations, specifically recommendation no. 6 is an exact recommendation within this report. We know that only 13 of 94 calls to action have actually been moved forward on to date. These calls to action were brought forward because of the bravery of residential school survivors and their families who shared their stories and experiences. It is time to see the government move forward with these recommendations. It is an insult to indigenous people and to all Canadians, the pace at which these recommendations are being actioned by the Liberal government. They need to be actioned today. This motion is a way to move forward in putting into action another recommendation.

My colleague, the MP for Nunavut, recently highlighted in the House the history and justification of harms towards indigenous children, which remain a shameful part of Canada's past and continue today as a result of government inaction on necessary changes in the Criminal Code, such as to section 43, being debated today. I want to highlight her words in her recent speech on this exact bill, because I feel they are important.

Canada's reconciliation with indigenous peoples still requires dedicated, well-invested and true commitment. Indigenous peoples have yet to experience active reconciliation. Banning the physical punishment of children would be a positive step. Justification for harming children can end. It can be the 44th Parliament that achieves this.

My hope is that we will all come together as members in the House to support this bill and do what is needed to protect children and youth. We know that this not a partisan issue. This is a much-overdue and necessary change to an outdated section of the Criminal Code. Despite our differences in this House, my hope is that we will all put partisanship to the side and do what is in the best interests of children and youth.

I want to point out that this is important work to move forward with big and necessary steps, but in addition to this, families require the supports and resources necessary to prevent and stop the cycle of violence. I cannot reiterate enough how vitally important it is that we have a government that is truly investing in people, as too many are struggling to make ends meet and too many are not getting the supports they need. These are ingredients for increased violence and need to be addressed and invested in appropriately.

Instead of providing justification for the physical punishment of our children, we must all come together to ensure that the human rights of children and youth are respected by repealing section 43 of the Criminal Code and supporting my colleague's bill, Bill C-273.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Madam Speaker, it is an honour for me to rise today to speak in favour of Bill C-273, which was put forward by my wonderful colleague from New Westminster—Burnaby and seconded by my colleague from Nunavut.

As we have heard, the goal of this bill is to repeal section 43 of the Criminal Code, “Correction of child by force”, which states, “Every schoolteacher, parent or person standing in the place of a parent is justified in using force by way of correction toward a pupil or child, as the case may be, who is under his care, if the force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances.”

We are now in 2024. I was a long-time ECE teacher. I taught in the faculty of education at the University of Winnipeg training pre-service teachers entering schools. We know there is no benefit to using physical force against a student. In my time as a teacher, often working with students at risk, never once did I have to lay a hand on a student to remain in control.

It is not surprising that in my riding in Manitoba, the Aurora Family Therapy Centre supports the repeal of section 43, in addition to the Manitoba Association of School Superintendents. The very heads of schools in Manitoba support the repeal, along with Manitoba child care associations, experts in the field who understand very well that there is no place for using physical force against children.

In addition to this bill, one of the calls to action by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is to repeal section 43. We know of the harms that were done to children in residential schools. We know of the permanent damage and emotional scars that utilizing physical force against children had. That is why I am not surprised that over 700 organizations, including school superintendents, are supporting the repeal of section 43 of the Criminal Code.

I remember it was in my grade 2 class that I began hating on school. There was a time in my education where I do not think any teacher ever believed I would graduate from high school. My grade 2 teacher, whose name I still remember, Mr. Camilo, used to kick kids who were out of line to get them back in line. I remember one kid who was clearly struggling. Looking back, he probably had all sorts of stuff going on in his life, maybe even violence in his own home. He was kicked daily by Mr. Camilo to get him back in line.

I never saw any improvement in behaviour in his young boy. In fact, there was a growing resentment between the student and Mr. Camilo. I remember, as a little girl, how much I hated Mr. Camilo. My father was a psychologist with the department of education and worked with some of the most difficult kids who were having the most difficulties in the classroom, and we would talk about this.

I remember my dad advocating to end violence against kids in schools and physical punishment in school, having suffered his own physical punishment from adults trying to keep him in line when he was in hiding during the Holocaust. He remembered the emotional scars that caused, so I am not surprised that nearly 700 organizations and academics have endorsed a joint statement on the physical punishment of children and youth, stating that the physical punishment of children can no longer be justified by the Criminal Code of Canada. Seven hundred is no small number of experts, academics and folks like me, people who actually train pre-service teachers, who are saying there is no room to punish kids physically in institutions.

In fact, the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child states that governments “must protect children from violence”. We are obliged, as members of Parliament, to uphold UN conventions, including that governments must protect children from violence and, I would argue, protect children from violence and abuse and being neglected by anyone who looks after them. I would argue that this bill is one more occasion when we can uphold human rights laws that impact children. There are over 65 countries around the world that have already banned the practice of physically punishing children. If Canada is to be a leader in human rights, it must repeal section 43 of the Criminal Code.

I have to say that I am disappointed, especially with the release of the truth and reconciliation report that came out in 2015, that we still live in a time when we can justify any sort of physical punishment of children, especially in child care institutions and schools. I can say, as somebody who spent over 30 years in the field of education, whether as an ECE, as a teacher or in training pre-service teachers at the university, that I never had to physically restrain some of the kids who had a lot of difficulties in the classroom, so I find this really hard.

It is often targeted at kids with special needs, including kids, for example, with ADHD, kids like my son, who had to have an individualized education program because he had difficulty staying in his seat. The teacher managed to integrate him into the classroom by putting tape on the floor to remind my wonderful son Jacob, my courageous, brilliant son Jacob, that he had to stay in the square. This teacher allowed my son to stand up at his desk and rock back and forth, because he could not manage himself sitting at his desk. He wrote all this beautiful poetry, and he got “outstanding” in science, and all it took was having him stand up. We need to find better and more creative ways to manage behaviour in the classroom and institutions, rather than physically restraining kids to make them follow the rules and toe the line even though we know that kids have differences.

Therefore, I am very proud to rise with my colleague from New Westminster—Burnaby to bring this issue to light and to have the courage to say that maybe we need to do things a little better; maybe we need to be a little kinder, a little more gentle and a little more tender; and maybe we need to raise a new generation of children who practise non-violence because that non-violence was practised toward them.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Madam Speaker, if I may, I would like to wish my daughter Naomie a happy second birthday and tell her that mommy loves her very much. It is a bit in keeping with the theme of the bill before us, since we are talking about children, and I am certain she is paying close attention right now.

Some bills are tricky to explain, especially when they are about children, and particularly given that, in Quebec, we are crazy about our kids. That being said, I want to state from the outset that the Bloc Québécois will be voting against Bill C-273 to prevent it from being studied in committee. I will begin by explaining why we made this decision. I will then describe the context surrounding this bill and, finally, I will explain why it is a bad idea masquerading as a good one.

First of all, the Bloc Québécois is once again advocating a balanced position on this sensitive issue. We are going to be the adults in the room. As such, we believe that the law must include reasonable defence mechanisms to help maintain public confidence in our rule of law.

The bill essentially aims to repeal section 43 of the Criminal Code, which provides a defence to parents as well as teachers if they use reasonable force to correct a child. This could be described as child discipline and parental discipline.

Section 43 states, “Every schoolteacher, parent or person standing in the place of a parent is justified in using force by way of correction toward a pupil or child, as the case may be, who is under his care, if the force does not exceed what is reasonable under the circumstances.” That is clearly stated.

Second, as we have seen in the media, a movement has taken off in recent years. This movement calls for an end to all forms of corporal punishment of children and young people, including the repeal of section 43 of the Criminal Code. A number of stakeholders and groups like Corinne's Quest have expressed their support for the idea that parliamentarians should remove this provision from the legal framework once and for all. Initiatives with that goal have been introduced in the House of Commons and the Senate as recently as 2022.

It is important to recall that, in 2004, the Supreme Court considered the issue and upheld the constitutionality of section 43. It can be used as a defence to charges of assaulting a child. To avoid legal pitfalls, we believe it remains relevant to the exercise of parental or teaching authority, as long as it is reasonable.

In Canadian Foundation for Children, Youth and the Law v. Canada, the highest court interpreted section 43 of the Criminal Code. Section 43 was challenged on the basis of sections 7 and 15 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which guarantee the right to security of the person and the right to equality respectively, but it was not struck down because the protection it offers is limited. As a result, it does not exclude the possibility of charges being brought and possibly even criminal sanctions being imposed when excessive force is used against a child.

As soon as that force becomes anything more than transitory or trifling force to control the behaviour of a child or as soon as it becomes harmful or degrading for the child, then the protection offered under section 43 no longer applies and the behaviour in question can be considered criminal. This protection is exercised reasonably and the circumstances are taken into account. The Supreme Court found that force may not involve objects, such as rulers or belts, and it may not be applied to the child's head.

The removal of section 43 from the Criminal Code would mean criminalizing the normal behaviour of parents who are trying to put their child to bed and of teachers who have to physically control a child to remove them from the classroom or take them out of a dangerous situation, such as a fight.

Without a protection mechanism, prosecutors can still exercise their discretion to prosecute or not. However, once charged, parents and teachers would lose legal recognition of the educational role they play, which could justify these behaviours. Psychology has shown that removing this legal recognition can have consequences.

Third, the NDP's Bill C‑273 is an all-or-nothing proposal: either repeal section 43 or not. The fact that the NDP is unwilling to compromise when it comes to justifying actions intended to physically control a child or youth stems from its ideology.

An example of a compromise would have been to repeal section 43 but to add a new provision that indicates that the behaviour cannot be criminalized if the force is used to protect the child from a threat or danger, to prevent the child from committing a crime, or when performing the normal daily tasks that are incidental to good parenting.

The NDP's proposal is not the good idea that it appears to be. With the rise in violence in our schools, we cannot take away the few protective measures that teachers have at a time when they need to manage students who are less and less respectful of authority. Criminalizing by default force that is used to reasonably control a misbehaving student does nothing to encourage efforts to recruit educators.

That is a very real issue right now. For example, a Radio-Canada article written by Alexandre Duval last year stated that in 2021, “education centres in Quebec reported twice as many violent acts as in 2018-2019, before the pandemic”. There is no denying that increase, and we cannot add to teachers' mental burden by increasing the risk of lawsuits and taking away their ability to intervene if situations get out of hand. The article states the following:

At the Centre de services scolaires des Affluents in Lanaudière, reports of physical and verbal violence more than doubled over the same period, from 757 to over 2,000. This represents an increase of 164%. A comparable increase of 141% occurred in cases reported at the Centre de services scolaires de la Beauce-Etchemin. Just over 400 violent acts were reported in 2021, compared with 979 last year.

I would like to share a personal story. Before I was elected, because I love children so much, I was lucky enough to work as a monitor in an elementary school, where I had to deal with various situations. I had a ball thrown at my face, which broke my glasses. I saw children in crisis attacking their classmates. This was clearly a safety issue for the student involved and for the others. That is to say nothing of all the times I walked into a classroom and the teacher was trying to get some of the more unruly students under control. I witnessed some pretty disturbing scenes.

This bill would make it difficult for staff to intervene. In fact, I myself would have had concerns about intervening to restore a sense of security in such situations. We have to be extremely careful because the law already exists and we cannot use excessive force on a child. We obviously do not want to harm a child. Earlier I mentioned the 2004 ruling on section 43.

The research I did in preparation for this speech also led me to a report from the Institut national de santé publique du Québec that focused on violence and health and addressed the issue of bullying and violence at school. Violence can occur between students as well. Staff have to be able to take reasonable action if the other students are in danger.

In conclusion, the Bloc Québécois believes that our schools can be safe places for everyone and that our teachers play a key role in preserving a harmonious environment that is conducive to learning. We need to have a legal framework that is respectful of parental and teaching authority, provided it is used reasonably. It is a matter of education, but also of safety. As I was saying earlier, it is also a matter of knowing how we want to intervene with children, but it needs to be done reasonably. That is why we are voting against Bill C‑273. Again, the NDP is proposing an idea that is not as good as it seems and that might end up criminalizing the behaviour of parents and teachers who are acting in good faith.

I would like to point out one last thing. We all want the best education for our children, but we need to keep the tools that we have for taking action and protecting them. No one wants to use excessive force against a child. If there is a problem, then we want the justice system to be able to do its work. What we are seeing right now is that there are risks involved in repealing section 43. There is the risk of additional pressure on staff and the risk of error on the part of some parents. For all of these reasons, once again, the Bloc Québécois will be voting against this bill, which addresses this extremely sensitive issue. Let us remember that, first and foremost, we want to make children's welfare a top priority for elected officials in the House.