Bill C-5

An Act to amend the Criminal Code and the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act

This enactment amends the Criminal Code and the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act to, among other things, repeal certain mandatory minimum penalties, allow for a greater use of conditional sentences and establish diversion measures for simple drug possession offences.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to start, with all due respect and affection, by correcting you. This wasn't a House order. This was a committee motion that is a subterfuge that the Green Party objects to and has objected to since it was first used to deny us the rights we would ordinarily have at report stage. As a result of the motion, in identical language, passed in every committee every time we have an election, we now have—without proper process to change the ways in which the House of Commons works to address legislation—a bad habit, which I'm sure will soon be referred to as some kind of law, that members of Parliament who are either independent or members of parties that do not have recognized party status are required, on a very short timeline, to turn around amendments and bring them to committees without the right to vote on them, without the right to speak much on them and without the right to move them. This is why they're deemed moved, which puts me in an awkward circumstance.

I can see what's happening in this committee. I support Bill C-5, but it doesn't go far enough. We've looked at the Supreme Court decisions. We've looked at many court of appeal decisions all across the country. We know a number of things. I'll go back to when Bill C-10, the omnibus crime bill under Stephen Harper, went through Parliament. I was a member of Parliament. I fought very hard against it because there was absolutely no evidence that mandatory minimums worked to reduce crime rates. There was evidence to the contrary. The State of Texas was already removing its mandatory minimums, while our Parliament was charging ahead to bring them in.

Therefore, I support removing mandatory minimums. All of my amendments, and a few others that are to a slightly different point, seek to do more to remove mandatory minimums. They are expensive and inefficient. They pass the costs of incarceration onto provinces. There are many arguments as to why they don't make any sense. Of course, the arguments we've heard a few times mentioned today are that we see disproportionate incarceration of people of colour and of indigenous people at rates that are well known, so I won't repeat that evidence here.

I will just say that my first amendment, and I can deal with it but I want to also raise a larger point, Mr. Chair, which is that if I could, seeing the painful filibuster that we've seen in the last two and a half hours, I'd say let's just take all my amendments that are inadmissible—

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Clause 5 deals with prohibiting the possession of a firearm, a prohibited or restricted weapon, a prohibited device or any prohibited ammunition “that the person knows was obtained by the commission” of an offence. This makes it very different from some other clauses that we have dealt with and that we will deal with in Bill C-5. This is not just the possession of a prohibited weapon. It's possession of a prohibited weapon that the person knows was obtained in the commission of an offence.

I think that is an important distinction to make. There is a mandatory minimum penalty currently of one year for offenders convicted on this offence when prosecuted by indictment. The same mandatory minimum does not apply if someone is not prosecuted by indictment but is prosecuted by a summary conviction.

I think a distinction has to be made here between this and other clauses, in that “the person knows was obtained by the commission” of an offence is a higher threshold to meet than just being in simple possession—we'll call it that, because that term gets tossed around a lot—of a prohibited or restricted weapon. In this case, the person knows that it was obtained by the commission of an offence.

Now, you may wonder, since I support our having a mandatory minimum penalty in this case.... It seems abundantly clear that there should be one. Our amendment would reduce the mandatory minimum from “one year” to “six months”. The reason I am proposing this is that, as we've seen as we've gone through this clause-by-clause, all the mandatory minimums that have been in the Criminal Code dealing with firearms offences that Bill C-5 has thus far dealt with have been eliminated. The Conservative amendment would maintain a six-month minimum for possession of a firearm while knowing its possession is unauthorized. I think that is a really important distinction to make.

That is my commentary, through you, Chair, to Gary. That's the commentary part. I do have a question, though. I'm going to make that distinction.

Through you, Chair, I'm wondering if our witnesses could comment on whether there is an awareness on that additional threshold, and on how prosecution and police go about meeting that threshold, when this goes beyond other sections in that, first, you have to prove the person was in possession, under the law, of the prohibited weapon, but, second, for a conviction under this section, you have to go further and prove that the person knows it was obtained in the commission of an offence.

Could either of our witnesses walk us through that process? Again, I'm trying to draw the distinction between this and the other section, where a person may have no idea that the weapon was in their possession as the result of an offence. This has another threshold to meet.

I'm just asking if they could speak to that.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The fact that the Liberals are repealing mandatory jail time in respect to this particular Criminal Code section, which deals with mandatory jail time for not first-time offenders, as Mr. Moore, Mr. Brock and Mr. Morrison have pointed out, but persons who were convicted twice and subsequent times of a serious firearms offence, means that Bill C-5 is not as advertised.

The Liberals had advertised this bill as being about first-time offenders, people who make a mistake and might have been caught in the wrong set of circumstances. In those cases, rehabilitation and seeing that such persons are not incarcerated might be a better course, but, Mr. Chair, that isn't what this section deals with. This section deals with mandatory jail time for a serious offence of persons who were convicted more than once. It's not a case of a one-off. It's not a case of someone just making a mistake. It's not a case of someone who was caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's a case that provides for mandatory jail time for recidivists.

It's interesting, on this theme of Bill C-5 not being as advertised, with the Liberals saying one thing and doing another, we have a government that likes to talk a lot about firearms. They obsess about firearms. There's good reason to be concerned about firearms being used out on the street by people involved in gangs and organized crime that have impacted and undermined the safety and security of our communities.

One would think that if one is concerned about public safety that one would go after folks who go out and commit serious firearms offences, who commit crimes with guns. The Liberals take exactly the opposite approach. Their approach is to go after law-abiding firearms owners while giving those who go out and commit crimes with guns a free pass. That's what this rollback, this repeal of this particular section of the Criminal Code with respect to the mandatory jail time provided for in it, would do. It would give criminals a free pass.

There is some level of consistency with the Liberals. In the last Parliament, my former colleague Bob Saroya introduced Bill C-238. Bill C-238 would have increased mandatory jail time for criminals convicted for being in known possession of smuggled firearms. We hear about the fact that most of the firearms that are used in the commission of firearms offences are smuggled, illegal firearms from the United States—around 80% or so. Bill C-238 would have demanded increased accountability, but the Liberals defeated Bob Saroya's legislation.

I think some are newer members, but others are not. One thing about Bob Saroya is that he always was a tireless advocate for his constituents. He represented a part of Toronto that had experienced serious issues with firearms-related crime. He put forward a common-sense bill to hold criminals accountable—criminals who are knowingly in possession of smuggled firearms—having regard for the fact that smuggled firearms are really the root of the problem when it comes to firearms crime.

What did the Liberals do? Being soft on crime, they voted against it. Now, consistent with that soft-on-crime approach, they want to eliminate mandatory jail time for those who are in knowing possession of an unauthorized firearm, for criminals who are convicted not on their a first offence but on their second and subsequent offence.

It underscores, Mr. Chair, just how misplaced the priorities of this Liberal government are and how their rhetoric doesn't align with their actions. They talk a good game and a lot of Canadians buy into it. When one actually looks at what they put forward in the way of legislation or how they respond to legislation introduced by then-Conservative member of Parliament Bob Saroya, it's very different from what you would think they would do based upon what they portray in public, on the campaign trail and in their talking points.

Mr. Chair, again, it's a case of a bill that is not as advertised. It's a further example of how misplaced the priorities of the Liberals are.

We as Conservatives believe that firearms aren't the issue, but those who go out and commit crimes with firearms are the issue. That was repeatedly emphasized at committee by law enforcement. Several witnesses were asked that question and in every instance they said that was the problem, but the Liberals want to go after the people who obey the law. They're not really interested in dealing with those who are recidivists, who commit offences and who intentionally and knowingly possess smuggled or unauthorized firearms.

Mr. Chair, I'm hopeful that the members opposite will spend some time and really reflect on what is happening. I would encourage them because I don't think we're going to get through the clauses in the 25 minutes that we have left today. I would really encourage the members opposite to spend some time going through the testimony of what some of our witnesses who came before the committee—from law enforcement and victims—had to say about the impact that firearms-related offences have. Then they could ask themselves how eliminating mandatory jail time for criminals who commit two, three or four offences helps and makes sense.

I would be very interested in hearing how they would say that does make sense and how it squares with their false advertising that this bill targets people who were caught up in the wrong place at the wrong time and who made a one-off mistake. This specific rollback mandatory jail sentence in terms of subsection 92(3) is not an example of that. It's quite the opposite.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

There is a section in my code—and I don't think Martin's has this so you may want to reconsider this, Gary—that's an offence table. Mr. Naqvi can appreciate this. Whenever you look at an obscure offence...and I'll be the first to admit there are a lot of firearm offences and they're nuanced. You have to be very careful with the language and in terms of how you screen a file to see what options you have available to you.

Under the offence table for this particular matter, it says that a first-time offender, for this particular section, is eligible for a conditional or an absolute discharge, the most lenient of sentencing options available to judges across this country. That way, if someone asks a person, “Do you have a criminal record?”, the person can respond lawfully, “No, I do not.” The only exception would be if a person were to ask or an employer were to ask, “Have you been convicted of a criminal offence?”, then the person would be lawfully required to say, “I have been discharged.”

That is available. Moving up the ladder of offences for a first-time offender is a suspended sentence, which is commonly known as probation. You mind your Ps and Qs, don't engage in any further criminal activity and, depending on the length of that suspended sentence, your sentence is complete. There's a fine. There's no minimum and no maximum fine. There's a fine and probation or the conditional sentence, which we know Bill C‑5 talks about.

Again to my point and to reiterate and highlight and support my colleague Mr. Moore, the section already achieves what Bill C‑5 is designed to do and, in particular, with respect to the emphasis and the talking points to try to reduce the overincarceration, there is a built-in safety mechanism already in place.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

I will speak to that really quickly.

For this section of the code, what our amendment would do, again, is replace the one-year mandatory minimum with a six-month mandatory minimum.

Mr. Cooper reminded me of something that I think is important that I put on the record. In no way, shape or form would I want anyone to think that I think the mandatory minimum should be reduced in these serious firearms cases. What we're attempting to do is to salvage some form of statement from Parliament denouncing the very serious firearms offences we're talking about here.

These are current in the case of a first offence under Section 92(3):

Every person who commits an offence under subsection (1) or (2) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable

(a) in the case of a first offence, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years;

(b) in the case of a second offence, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years and to a minimum punishment of imprisonment for a term of one year; and

(c) in the case of a third or subsequent offence, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years and to a minimum punishment of imprisonment for a term of two years less a day.

I think we are talking here about some of the serious firearms offences that we're seeing in the headlines today. Just to be clear, we're talking about the commission of an offence with a firearm and these are some of the more serious offences. Not all of these are exactly the same. There's not just a series of mandatory minimums that this Bill C-5 eliminates. We have to put each and every one of them into context.

We have seen two clauses carry. I'm hopeful that on some of these clauses we might take a look at what the impact is, and we might give that some thought and say, “Do you know what? In this case, we should maintain a clause that perhaps has been in the Criminal Code for half a century.”

I'm going to ask a question of our witnesses to walk us through the process under this particular section, because I want to draw to the attention of the committee the fact that the minimum punishment in the present section is only triggered on a subsequent offence. The escalated minimum punishment, a term of imprisonment for two years less a day, is only triggered by a third offence.

We heard testimony from police, from community members and from victims' groups that their concern is not with the one-time offender, the person who innocently got caught up with a bad crowd and committed an offence. What we're talking about here is an individual who is deeply involved in serious crimes that, by definition, cause harm to their fellow Canadians.

It's bad enough to be charged and found guilty of one offence, but even at that threshold, it's not until you get to a second offence.... You have committed a crime under this section. Now you have gotten out. You have committed the same crime. You victimized another Canadian, and only now are we saying, “Okay, now you need to serve one year in prison.” It's one year in prison, and that's not after the first offence. That's after the second offence.

Now, picture that same individual. They have been found guilty twice of a serious firearms offence that involves the victimization of fellow Canadians in our communities, whether rural or urban. They were out again on the street, having been afforded the opportunity for rehabilitation and course correction. Now there's a subsequent third offence, for which they have been found guilty under our Criminal Code with the full benefit of our Charter of Rights and the full benefit of a fulsome defence under our charter. They've been found guilty a third time, and all we are saying as a Parliament is that for a serious firearms offence involving victimizing other Canadians, there should be a minimum of two years. Even that is being stripped from our Criminal Code by Bill C-5.

The reason I'm speaking about this, Mr. Chair, is that I think it's really important for committee members to think about it, because I know not all of us dwell on each of these clauses every day. We're all busy. We all have constituents. We have people who are calling in because the passport they went to get back in February still hasn't arrived. The point is that we're all busy people and we all have diverse challenges, and I think this is that moment—when we're at this table—when we draw our attention to the really profound impact that we have on Canadians' lives through the Criminal Code.

We heard witness testimony from victims. It was bothersome sometimes when some witnesses came and spoke for their introduction but they never mentioned victims. In virtually all of these cases, there's a victim involved. When we listen to the victims, of course.... I will not deny that when we listen to the criminal defence bar, they say, “Get rid of these mandatory minimums that are so troubling to my client. We don't want them.” However, when we listened to victims, they said it's an absolute affront to them that we would reduce the mandatory sentence that the person who victimized them would receive.

The question I have, through you, Chair, to our witnesses, is to distinguish subsection 92(3) from some of the others, so that the minimums we're dealing with here are not for first-time offenders, but for repeat offenders who, in some cases, are on their third offence.

The other thing I'll say.... I throw this out to committee members. I mentioned the case that we just heard about with NHL star Mitch Marner and the carjacking that happened. Do you know what? He's no more important than every other Canadian. The only reason we're talking about that is because we all know who he is. He's famous. What about the people who aren't Mitch Marner who had their car jacked from the same parking lot the week before? They're important too. They're Canadians too.

The point I'm going to make, and I'm guessing it's 100% true, is that if someone was convicted a first time, they committed an offence. They were caught by the police, had a trial, were found guilty and sentenced, and then there was a second time and a third time. If I asked every one of these committee members if they truly believe that those are the only three significant Criminal Code offences that this individual had committed, I don't think anyone would say they believe that.

These are the ones people are caught doing. It's one thing to get caught. It's another thing to get convicted under our system. They've been caught and convicted not once, not twice, but three times. Those are the minimums we're talking about.

Through you, Chair, to our witness, could you walk us through this clause and its application a bit? What are the triggers at each stage and the consequence of those triggers?

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just quickly on this, in the context of the debate on Bill C-5 and Bill C-22 before it, this is not to be partisan in any way, but to illustrate that the idea of the concept of Parliament sending a clear message to Canadians, to victims, to criminals and, yes, to the judges presiding over sentencing, is not a Conservative notion in some way exclusively.

Before we take what I think is a drastic step and possibly eliminate a mandatory prison sentence for some of these section 85 offences on using a firearm in the commission of an offence, I want to quickly note that the minimum was first introduced as far back as 1976. In 1976 and forward since then, some of these have been on the books. That doesn't mean we can never make changes—I get that—but some of these sections have lived on through Liberal governments, Conservative governments and so on, all of them agreeing to keep these provisions in place, and all the while, these provisions, although challenged, many of them were upheld.

I think it's important to contextualize that, because if you listen to the debate, you would think that all of these mandatory minimums—I'm kind of lumping a bunch of them together here—somehow came from the previous Conservative government when, in fact, I've taken the time to look at all of the mandatory minimums being eliminated, and virtually all of them pre-existed the previous Conservative government.

In fact, on the mandatory minimums that we brought in under the Safe Streets and Communities Act or previous legislation, the current government has chosen to keep those on the books, to not eliminate them.

It's important, before we make a change like this, to recognize that some of these have been on the books for the better part of 50 years. It's not something that just is a recent invention but something that we should really consider really very weightily as we deliberate on each of these clauses and on removing what could amount to the only barrier between someone who has committed a serious offence and their being right back out on the street.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I wish to speak in support of this amendment. I have to say that if it were a choice between maintaining the status quo or going where the Liberals and NDP want to go, which is to eliminate mandatory jail time for some pretty serious offences, including the very serious offence of using a firearm in the commission of an offence, I would prefer the status quo.

That is where I hope we arrive at, but looking at the submissions that were made by certain individuals who came before the committee, by the Liberals and the NDP, and hearing some of the comments made by my colleagues throughout the rather limited number of meetings that we have had, I'm not optimistic that we're going to go there.

Instead, it seems that, blinded by ideology, the Liberals and the NDP want to move full steam ahead and simply eliminate these mandatory jail times, despite some very compelling testimony from witnesses, witnesses who were victims of offences, including firearms offences, and from law enforcement.

So much testimony came before the committee calling on the members of this committee to put a pause on rolling back mandatory jail time for, specifically, firearms offences that I think it would be helpful to remind committee members of some of that testimony. There's a lot. It's tough to know, frankly, where to even begin.

For example, André Gélinas is a retired detective from the intelligence division of the Service de police de la Ville de Montréal. He said this in general about Bill C-5: “There will be no deterrence.” He said, “The message this sends to the police who confront these criminals”—the criminals he's speaking of are criminals who go out and commit offences with firearms—“will only fuel discouragement and disengagement from these police officers.”

Mr. Gélinas also said:

This does not bode well for our collective security. As a society, we are facing an abdication and a retreat that is certainly not a solution to the overrepresentation of the communities [supposedly] targeted by this bill.

He said, “People who live in neighbourhoods where gangs and organized groups are very active feel totally abandoned by Bill C‑5.” He also stated:

Just imagine how you would feel if you were the victim of an assault with a firearm.... I don't think you would feel any safer in your community knowing that this person would not be subject[ed] to...minimum...sanctions.

That was Mr. Gélinas, who has very extensive experience in law enforcement on the front lines, dealing with perpetrators who go out, who commit serious crimes with firearms, who undermine public safety and who terrorize communities and leave victims in their wake. He certainly said, as a starting point, don't go where you want to go, where the Liberals and NDP want to go. I agree with him.

Anie Samson is a municipal elected official and represents an ethnically and culturally diverse area in Montreal that has been hit hard by firearms crimes perpetrated by criminals who use illegal firearms. She said before our committee that, “[These] weapons have destroyed families, friendships and lives.” She also said, “The message being sent at present is that because certain mandatory minimum sentences have been abolished, a criminal can commit a crime and get a reduced sentence, while the victim may be traumatized for the rest of their life.”

Stéphane Wall, another retired police officer, again from the city of Montreal, said—again, generally about Bill C-5 as it pertains to firearms offences—that Bill C-5 would “trivialize” the possession of arms for further use in criminal activities. It would give the “wrong message” to these criminals. She said, she didn't think this would coincide with the reality as we find it in the streets.

Members of street gangs already feel completely immune prepassage. They are going to be supported in a number of crimes. They are already laughing at the justice system. They just mock it

Then there is Sergeant Michael Rowe, who came before the committee representing the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. I saw the Minister of Public Safety earlier today, or perhaps it was yesterday, citing the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police in answer to a question in question period. Sergeant Rowe said:

For police officers, victims of crime, members of the public and even the offenders themselves, the circumstances that result in a criminal charge for most firearms offences often result in a real threat to public safety, exposure to stress and trauma that has a lasting impact on mental health and the erosion of public safety.

In that regard he spoke and raised serious concerns about mandatory jail sentences being rolled back by Bill C-5.

As Mr. Brock noted, when we're talking about individuals who are charged under this particular section, we're not talking about folks who are going to walk away with a conditional sentence. We're talking about folks who are going to be spending some time behind bars in most cases.

Having regard for the evidence that came before our committee about the prevalence of illegal firearms and the fact that crimes are being committed by people who are often involved in gangs and organized crime.... Having regard for the fact that these witnesses told us that, as it currently stands, there is a need to provide for denunciation, and having regard for the impact that these types of offences have on victims and on the collective sense of security in communities, particularly communities that have a wide array of social issues, this is not where I'd like to go, but again, it is a matter of saying there should be at least some maintenance, some assurance that if someone goes out and commits the crime using a firearm in the commission of an offence, there ought to be, at the very least, a mandatory jail time, at least some preservation of that, and that's what this amendment does.

On that basis, given where this committee appears to be going, I think it's.... I hate to use the word “compromise”, but that's essentially what it is, to maintain at least some level of accountability in place.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I want to start off by highlighting the talking points that the government repeatedly used when this bill was introduced at first reading and at second reading, what we've heard from the government committee members in their questioning of witnesses and, in particular, how the Attorney General, the highest legal officer in this country, has said that the whole purpose behind Bill C‑5 is to make a significant step to once and for all address the overincarceration of indigenous offenders and other marginalized individuals in the country.

My colleague Mr. Naqvi, in his previous capacity as the Attorney General of Ontario, was my boss, and certainly in his tenure would give us instructions from time to time to be ever-cognizant of that particular fact and to look at ways in which prosecutors in Ontario—I can speak only for Ontario—would be afforded the additional tools to exercise the appropriate discretion. As Crown attorneys, we are vested with an enormous amount of power when we receive a case. When we receive a case, there's a Crown brief. There's an indication of what the accused's name is and what the offence is and perhaps a summary of the salient facts, but apart from a particular Crown attorney such as me being familiar with a surname that could be the same as that of an indigenous offender in my community or unless someone has experience as a prosecutor and knows repeat offenders, they may not know whether or not that particular accused falls within the class of individuals who this bill is designed to assist.

We take a position. We take a screening position as to what we believe the offence is worth, but through the process of the prosecution for an offence such as a section 85 offence.... For the non-lawyers on this committee, section 85 offences are most often committed in an armed robbery scenario. They are extremely violent offences that impact community safety. They're quite often committed as a result of an addiction someone has as a quick scheme to acquire money to feed that addiction, quite often targeting convenience stores and vulnerable members of our community. We take a very stern approach that this cries out for a significant denunciatory sentence. However, the process could take upwards of a few years to resolve. Quite often individuals charged with this offence will acquire defence counsel, and defence counsel will bring to the attention of me or other Crown attorneys some of the other factors that we should be considering when we exercise our discretion.

This is a long, roundabout way of my saying to this committee that something no one has spoken about in the House, and something I have tried unsuccessfully many times to bring up, is that it completely ignores the discretion that Crowns in Ontario—and, I would like to think, across this country—have reflected and are doing in their work to ensure that we are addressing the overincarceration issue. When you're dealing with an offence like the ones in subsection 85(3), the serious nature of which I have highlighted—and this is to Mr. Garrison's point—with all due respect to Mr. Garrison, I completely disagree with his interjection, because a message must be sent to like-minded offenders. The sentencing provisions in the Criminal Code mandate principles that a judge must consider.

This is over and above factoring in the indigenous background or taking a look at the court of appeal decision in Morris, when you take at look at the impact of being a Black Canadian in an urban centre and whether or not that can be taken into consideration by a judge.

The fact of the matter is that there is much jurisprudence, and I'm sure my colleagues at the DOJ will back me up when I say that the predominant sentencing principles for this type of offence is denunciation, general and specific deterrence and, most importantly, separation from society. These are individuals who will not be getting a conditional sentence. These are individuals who, regardless of an indigenous or a Black background, will end up in jail. In my view, this sets the appropriate bar, sending out a message to like-minded individuals that should you engage in this activity, you're not going to “pass Go”, to use the Monopoly metaphor. You are going to jail, no ifs, ands or buts. However, with Crown discretion, there are ways of adapting and taking a look at the overincarceration issue.

The last thing I want to highlight—and my DOJ colleagues can confirm this—is that this particular offence has been charter-proofed by the Ontario Court of Appeal 2013 decision of Meszaros, post-Nur, and the Al-Isawi decision by the British Columbia Court of Appeal in 2017. Both cases stood for the proposition that this particular section and the mandatory minimum penalties did not infringe upon section 12 of the charter.

Thank you, Chair.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I have to say, Mr. Moore, by your own logic, this would make the Conservatives soft on crime, because you have always argued that the mandatory minimums do something to affect crime.

What we heard repeatedly from witnesses, and what we know from all of the peer-reviewed literature in criminology, is that mandatory minimums do nothing but increase jail time. They do not have a deterrent effect. They do not, by increasing jail time, make people less likely to offend. In fact, if anything, the literature shows that it makes people more likely to reoffend.

I think you're right in identifying that everybody around the table is interested in keeping the community safer and preventing more victims in our society. What we disagree on is whether mandatory minimums [Technical difficulty—Editor].

In this case, I'm of course going to vote against your amendment, because it restores a mandatory minimum that Bill C-5 would [Technical difficulty—Editor].

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Recognizing that it seems to be the will of this committee, I don't want to be presumptuous, but based on the last vote it would appear that the mandatory minimums that are in place are at risk of being struck down, which, in my view, puts our communities at risk, particularly when there is a recidivist element and repeat offenders who are committing the same crimes and the same types of crimes over and over.

What our CPC-1 would do, in an effort to compromise, is reduce the mandatory minimum penalty from one year to six months. For virtually all of the minimums we deal with in Bill C-5 and Bill C-22, which came before it, I think the lowest minimum is one year. I don't think there were any that were below one year. Some of them were more than a year, but the majority of them were a year.

What this would do is acknowledge what appears to certainly be the will of this committee to deal with mandatory minimums but also acknowledge the cry from the public right now that there be real consequences for serious crime. This amendment would be an effort to extend the olive branch and say, if one year is too much, then six months would take someone off the streets, hopefully get them some of the help they need and also show that there is a level of confidence in our justice system that if you commit some of the serious firearms offences and other offences contained in Bill C-5, we as a Parliament say that if you commit an offence like that, there needs to be some period of incarceration.

This amendment would lower the mandatory minimum penalty from one year to six months for using a firearm in the commission of an offence.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 18 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, March 31, the committee is meeting to study Bill C-5, an act to amend the Criminal Code and the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.

I'd like to welcome our two witnesses today. We have Matthew Taylor, general counsel and director, criminal law policy section, and we have Andrew Di Manno, counsel, criminal law policy section. They are both here to answer any questions any of the members have as we do clause-by-clause.

I'd like to start with the clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-5. I would like to provide the members with some instructions and a few comments on how the committee will proceed with this.

As the name indicates, this is an examination of all the clauses in the order in which they appear in the bill. I will call each clause successively, and each clause is subject to a debate and a vote. If there is an amendment to the clause in question, I will recognize the member proposing it, who may explain it. The amendment will then be open for debate. When no further members wish to intervene, the amendment will be voted on. Amendments will be considered in the order by which they appear in the bill or in the package each member received from the clerk. Members should note that amendments must be submitted in writing to the clerk of the committee.

The chair will go slowly to allow all members to follow the proceedings properly.

Amendments have been given an alphanumeric number in the top right corner to indicate which party submitted them. There is no need for a seconder to move an amendment. Once moved, you will need unanimous consent to withdraw it.

During debate on an amendment, members are permitted to move subamendments. These subamendments must be submitted in writing. They do not require the approval of the mover of the amendment. Only one subamendment may be considered at a time, and that subamendment cannot be amended. When a subamendment is moved to an amendment, it is voted on first. Then, another subamendment may be moved or the committee may consider the main amendment and vote on it.

Once every clause has been voted on, the committee will vote on the title and the bill itself. An order to reprint the bill may be required if amendments are adopted, so that the House has a proper copy for use at report stage.

Finally, the committee will have to order the chair to report the bill to the House. That report contains only the text of any adopted amendments as well as an indication of any deleted clauses.

Are there any questions? Are we all good to start?

We're fine. Okay, I will begin.

(On clause 1)

Go ahead, Mr. Moore.

Justice

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Mr. Speaker, it is Victims and Survivors of Crime Week, but the Liberals refuse to do even the bare minimum to support them. The government has abandoned its responsibility to victims of crime, but it remains a champion to its friends, the criminals. The Liberals' Bill C-5 would mean lighter sentences for violent gun crimes and that offenders charged with human trafficking and sexual assault would be able to serve their time from the comfort of their own homes.

Why will the Liberals not provide the same sense of security to victims and survivors of crime?

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister is deliberately conflating two different matters. We are talking about Bill C‑5, which would change the law so that the offences of using a firearm during a robbery, discharging a firearm with intent or being in possession of an unlawful firearm will no longer carry a minimum sentence.

Street gangs are making fools of us all. This is sheer hypocrisy. Can the minister talk about Bill C‑5 and stop talking about the other gun problem?

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we are seeing more and more shootings by street gangs. There were three in Laval last week.

The Quebec association of police chiefs does not support Bill C‑5, and for good reasons. In addition, the Montreal police service reports that there has been an incident involving a firearm every two days since the beginning of 2022.

Does this mean that the Prime Minister follows expert advice only when it suits him?

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like my colleague to tell that to Laval's chief of police, who stated, “The people who are willing to commit such offences are hardened criminals. It is fine to be an idealist, but they will not stop when they get out of jail.”

Here is what one person had to say. “We can no longer go out. My wife is very nervous and she is afraid.”

Another stated, “My daughter was lucky, but in broad daylight with children.... There could be a stray bullet the next time”.

Here is another fact. With Bill C-5, the Liberals want to leave these criminals on the streets with the support of the Liberal MPs from the Montreal area.

Why is the Prime Minister defending criminals and not victims?