Bill C-53

Recognition of Certain Métis Governments in Alberta, Ontario and Saskatchewan and Métis Self-Government Act

An Act respecting the recognition of certain Métis governments in Alberta, Ontario and Saskatchewan, to give effect to treaties with those governments and to make consequential amendments to other Acts

This enactment provides for the recognition of certain Métis governments in Alberta, Ontario and Saskatchewan and provides a framework for the implementation of treaties entered into by those Métis governments and the Government of Canada. Finally, it makes consequential amendments to other Acts.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you. I really appreciate your repeating that and helping to clarify.

I think that what I do need to say is that treaty-making was never a fair process for first nations. First nations were never heard in the same way we're hearing these three Métis nations in Ontario, Saskatchewan and Alberta. In that sense, Bill C-53 is unprecedented, as first nations during their negotiations did not have the same weight given to their voice by the federal government. When we're hearing about treaties never really being implemented the way they were intended to be, it has been a concern for over 150 years, so when it came to this bill and the concepts of treaty and self-government for Métis, it naturally flowed to the concerns and issues of first nations and other Métis over the last 150 years.

I think that's why this scrutiny was so important, so that when we're seeking fairness, we're seeking fairness for all indigenous peoples and for those first nations that were not given the same opportunities, through words like what you said, Michael—that the relationship with first nations is evolving and that treaties need space to evolve. It opens the doors for first nations to come back to you to make sure that treaties are evolving. When we're talking about treaties that, for example, might have been silent on water, they still need to be allowed to discuss water.

We know, for example, that there have been years of concerns about rights not being respected because of treaties towards indigenous peoples. This conversation helps to open the doors to first nations that have not been treated with equity, to first nations and other Métis who have not been given the same opportunities that we've heard of today.

Having said that and having heard your explanation about what this limits for future treaty-making, those limits existed for first nations, but I will still oppose.... I've changed my position on this provision. I will oppose this amendment because of what we've heard, because of what we need to do to uplift all indigenous peoples.

Qujannamiik.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Okay. I have you on the list.

First, I was asked for the chair's position or ruling on this. After a discussion with our legislative team, I'll give you, just briefly, the ruling on why this is deemed to be in order, as opposed to out of order.

The understanding is that CPC-5.01 reiterates the fact that Bill C-53 does not grant Métis governments and the Government of Canada the ability to enter into treaties regarding any rights or claims that pertain to land or resources. Procedurally, this is interpreted as a limitation rather than an expansion on the scope of the bill. Therefore, the amendment is admissible. If it were to be an expansion, it would not be admissible, but because it's a restriction, it is admissible. That's why it's on the table before us for discussion.

With that, I have Ms. Idlout, Mr. McLeod and then Mr. Schmale on my speaking list.

Ms. Idlout, I go to you first.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Good morning, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting 93 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs. We recognize that we meet on the unceded and traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples.

Colleagues, before we get into the continuation of the clause-by-clause review of Bill C-53 today, I'm going to flag for us that the call is out for upcoming travel for committees. The travel period will be April to June, and our deadline for submission is February 16. I'm not going to take any time on that today, but I'm just planting the idea that the deadline is coming up. Should we finish early today, I may come back to it before we adjourn to see if anybody has anything they'd like to put forward for our clerk and the logistics team to cost out, which we could submit for the Liaison Committee's consideration. Just give some thought to possible travel from April to June, this spring, and the deadline, February 16.

With that, we have a couple of new faces around the table today. I'd like to welcome Michelle Rempel Garner and Mr. Melillo. Welcome. It's always good to have you here.

Today we are continuing with Bill C-53, an act respecting the recognition of certain Métis governments in Alberta, Ontario and Saskatchewan.

I'd like to welcome back our witnesses. We are, hopefully, drawing near the end of the time we'll be spending with you, but we appreciate your continued presence and expertise in helping us move through this piece of legislation.

We're going to pick up where we left off. Where we are right now is with a couple of stood clauses, so we're going to resume with clause 2.

(On clause 2)

CPC-2 was adopted. Therefore, we created a new clause, clause 4.1.

Now we have CPC-1, which is Mr. Schmale's amendment. I'll ask Mr. Schmale if he'll move CPC-1.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Good morning, everyone. Welcome back. I call our meeting to order.

This is meeting number 92 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

We recognize that we're meeting on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples.

Pursuant to the House order of reference adopted on June 21, 2023, and pursuant to the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, October 26, 2023, the committee is meeting to proceed with the clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-53, an act respecting the recognition of certain Métis governments in Alberta, Ontario and Saskatchewan.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. We have only members online today. They know how to run things remotely, so I'm going to skip over the rest of that part.

I would like to welcome some substitutes today. We have Monsieur Lemire from the Bloc, and Heath MacDonald and Jenica Atwin for the Liberals. Welcome.

I'd also like to welcome back our officials from the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs. We have Michael Schintz, federal negotiations manager of negotiations—central for treaties and aboriginal government, and Blake McLaughlin, director general of negotiations—central for treaties and aboriginal government.

From the Department of Justice, we have Julia Redmond, legal counsel.

It's good to see that everybody's back here with us after Christmas and the holidays. Welcome back.

(On clause 13)

We'll now go through the continuation of Bill C-53. We're in clause-by-clause, and we left off with a discussion on clause 13.

I don't have anybody else on the speaking list. Does anybody want to speak to clause 13 before we move on?

Ms. Idlout, we'll go to you first.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

She's going onward and upward.

We've been very fortunate to have Ms. Davies with us.

I'd also like to take the opportunity to wish everyone a very merry Christmas and happy holidays. Best wishes for 2024.

We don't know what our time slot will be for the new year. As soon as we get that, we will be returning.

The intention is to suspend. We'll be carrying forward the meeting until we conclude the deliberations on Bill C-53. When we suspend versus adjourn, it means that we won't be sending out new notices with rooms and all of those good things. You'll get an email letting you know where we'll be, so watch for that. I will do my best to touch base with everybody before we come back to make sure you know where we are on what day. Also, talk to your whips.

For now, thank you so much for the work. We're getting there. There's more work to do in the new year.

Safe travels.

We are suspended.

[The meeting was suspended at 5:32 p.m., Thursday, December 14, 2023]

[The meeting resumed at 11:06 a.m., Monday, January 29, 2024]

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We'll now return to Bill C-53 clause-by-clause.

We're moving to a new clause, 8.1, which has resulted in NDP-4.2.

(On clause 8.1)

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

On the advice of my legislative clerks, I'd like to indicate that Bill C-53 provides for the recognition of certain Métis governments as defined in the bill. Moreover, clause 8 of the bill provides that “the Métis collectivity set out in column 2” of the schedule “holds the right to self-determination, including the inherent right of self-government recognized and affirmed by section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982.”

This amendment seeks to introduce the possibility of a dispute resolution process “If a Métis collectivity or an Indigenous governing body raises an issue in relation to the authority of a Métis government set out in column 1 of the schedule”. As House of Commons Procedure and Practice, third edition, states on page 770, “An amendment to a bill that was referred to a committee after second reading is out of order if it is beyond the scope and principle of the bill.”

In the opinion of the chair, the introduction of a dispute resolution process between a Métis collectivity and an indigenous governing body is a new concept that is beyond the scope of the bill.

Therefore, I rule this amendment inadmissible.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Good afternoon, everyone.

Welcome back to the continuation of meeting number 92. We're working on the clause-by-clause study of Bill C-53, an act respecting the recognition of certain Métis governments in Alberta, Ontario and Saskatchewan.

Before we get into the meeting today with some of the procedural things we need to do, in the spirit of the season and with the goodwill we saw the other day, I have a little box of Merci chocolates that I'll pass around the table. Officials are welcome to join in. Staff, please make sure that they get to you.

For those who have joined us at the back, we'll make sure that you get some chocolates as well to celebrate the progress we have been making on this bill and that we will hopefully continue to make today.

It's a little token of gratitude from—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Good afternoon, everyone. It's good to be back for meeting number 92. I call this meeting to order.

We are here today to do clause-by-clause on Bill C-53, an act respecting the recognition of certain Métis governments in Alberta, Ontario and Saskatchewan, to give effect to treaties with those governments and to make consequential amendments to other acts.

Now that we're in session, I'd like to remind everybody that there are no screenshots and no photos allowed.

I'd like to give a big welcome to everybody who has come to see us today, all the members of the public who are here. Welcome.

As always, welcome back to our officials. We appreciate your being here again today.

(On clause 8)

Colleagues, when we left off, we were on clause 8, and I had Mr. Schmale on top of the speaking list from the last meeting.

I'll turn it over to Mr. Schmale.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I thank Sébastien for his motion and his sharing with me previously. I think we've gotten some answers. I'm wondering if we can't table it at the next meeting so we can refine and amend what we've already provided to you, and then have a conversation about the substance of the first part of it for the next meeting. It doesn't appear like we're going to make any progress that draws the Bill C-53 clause-by-clause to a debate.

I'm wondering if it's okay to discuss this at the next meeting, as time is running short. It would be nice to get to one vote before we close tonight.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Since there’s five minutes left in the meeting, I just want to seize the opportunity and table the motion I sent to the clerk so that it can pass.

I was quite surprised by the speediness of the response sent to us before the committee’s meeting, and I want to highlight that.

You’ll understand that the second part of this motion can be deleted, but I will still read out the first part:

That the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs call upon the Government of Canada (1) to clarify how the Crown intends to conduct future negotiations with the Métis of Ontario, Saskatchewan and Alberta with respect to the inherent rights of section 5 of the Constitution Act of Canada, and to confirm that no overlap will be created as a result of such treaties on First Nations territories without having their free, prior and informed consent on these issues and on the territories of Quebec;

During a previous meeting of this committee, Mr. Justin Roy, councillor of the Kebaowek First Nation, talked about the lack of true recognition of title and rights. In response to one of the questions posed by my colleague, Marilène Gill, he said:

If this bill were to go through, it would have large impacts on our unceded Algonquin territory, only because we have been the rights and title holders of these lands since time immemorial.

This seems to me to be a fundamental issue that merits clarification. I think my role as a legislator also means acting as an intermediary to communicate the needs of my community.

I’m ready to take a step to facilitate voting on Bill C‑53 and passing it, but I have to provide clarification to the first nations in my community in order to get their support.

For example, it must be specified in writing that Bill C‑53 does not apply to Quebec’s territories, because that is at the heart of the Algonquin Anishinaabe nation. Mr. Roy testified to convey that.

In the case of the Chalk River site and consultations held by the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission, tabling the bill took four or five years because Indigenous peoples had to be consulted. Obviously, it was too late by then, and the Commission recommended that the project go forward. There was an impact on their ancestral lands and it could have an impact on the very safety of all citizens.

In my opinion, situations that potentially involve an overlap between territories do indeed require this kind of clarification. They are part of the determining factors to review before supporting or rejecting Bill C‑53.

Currently, the chiefs of first nations communities back home, who are Algonquin, are asking me to oppose this bill.

I therefore suggest you support the motion you received by email. Obviously, when it comes to the second part of it, thank you once again for the answer you provided.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will refrain from making any lame jokes.

It asks that Bill C-53, in the schedule, be amended by replacing the portion of item 1 in column 2 on page 11 with the following:

Métis Communities of Alberta that consent to be represented by the Métis Nation of Alberta

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to move the amendment. I think this is more housekeeping than anything.

We're asking that Bill C-53 be amended by adding after line 17 on page 10 the following new clause:

26 If Bill S-13, introduced in the 1st session of the 44th Parliament and entitled An Act to amend the Interpretation Act and to make related amendments to other Acts, receives royal assent, then, on the first day on which both section 1 of that Act and section 3.1 of this Act are in force, that section 3.1 is repealed.

This is something I believe we all agreed on. It's more of a housekeeping issue than anything.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

While you're saying that, it's actually referenced in the preamble of Bill C-53. It's the “recognition and implementation agreements”.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

It was just more to add some context. I think what they're talking about is the legally binding agreement that comes into effect once Bill C-53 passes.