Bill C-53

Recognition of Certain Métis Governments in Alberta, Ontario and Saskatchewan and Métis Self-Government Act

An Act respecting the recognition of certain Métis governments in Alberta, Ontario and Saskatchewan, to give effect to treaties with those governments and to make consequential amendments to other Acts

This enactment provides for the recognition of certain Métis governments in Alberta, Ontario and Saskatchewan and provides a framework for the implementation of treaties entered into by those Métis governments and the Government of Canada. Finally, it makes consequential amendments to other Acts.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

It's just something to maybe add to the conversation or just to hear myself talk.

Once Bill C-53 passes, it then puts into effect, in essence, the agreements that were signed between the three organizations and the government.

Right at the beginning of chapter 12, on page 31, it reads, “The Parties are committed to negotiations with a view to reaching a self-government Treaty within two years after the Effective Date”.

I think it's important to realize that Ms. Idlout and Mr. Viersen kind of opened the door to.... There are some legal ramifications after Bill C-53 happens that, through the treaty process, may or may not include that. I'm not saying it does, but if it does, if I get the conversation, I think what they're looking at is to maybe put some barriers in that allow those who have opposing views on this legislation to have some comfort, if you will—if that's the right choice of words.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Good afternoon, colleagues and witnesses.

Thank you to our witnesses for coming back for our meeting this afternoon.

We are now on meeting number 91 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs. I recognize that we are meeting on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples.

Pursuant to the House order of reference adopted on June 21, 2023, and pursuant to the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, October 26, the committee is meeting to proceed with the clause-by-clause of Bill C-53, an act respecting the recognition of certain Métis governments in Alberta, Ontario and Saskatchewan.

We left off this morning on clause 8.

We have a great audience joining us today and, just as a reminder, now that we're in session, there's no photography and there is no recording. That applies to members and, of course, officials. If you want to capture the moment, you'll have to do it afterwards.

We're on clause 8. We left off with me asking if the member wanted to move amendment CPC-3.2. We had a general discussion on clause 8. I had nobody else on the speaking list, so now I'll move to CPC-3.2—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

Next on my list I have Ms. Idlout.

Lori, before I go to you, I just want to say this. Yesterday, as we adjourned, I said that I had requests for resources for the rest of this week. When I went to bed last night, we had not heard anything. I was notified at about 8:30 this morning that the request had come through and the resources we received for today were starting at 9:00 a.m. We therefore could have started at 9:00 a.m. I've been clear that, as chair, my job is to secure resources to enable the discussion to happen on Bill C-53. It's up to members to do with that as they see fit and to have debate.

We talked yesterday, and one of the solutions put out there was for clause 8 to be stood in order to allow members to come up with wording. This would allow us to move on to clause 9. Clause 8 could be held before clause 2 in our proceedings.

It was short notice, but that's what we got. That's what we're working with. I have a request in for tomorrow, just to give you notice. Right now, it's from noon until 6:00 p.m., but I'm happy to extend that until midnight if we want to. We have a request for resources on Thursday and Friday. If we need to keep going into Christmas, I can explore what that looks like as well. As chair, I need to be in town, and I'm willing to do that in order to continue to facilitate the discussion.

That's why we have the resources today, with short notice. I appreciate everyone making it here on short notice. That's where we're at. We're back on the discussion of clause 8.

Next on my list, related to the motion to adjourn with conditions, I'll go to Ms. Idlout.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Good morning, colleagues. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 90 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs. We recognize that we are meeting on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Colleagues, today I was able to get some extra resources. I thank everyone for making it here on short notice. Good morning.

We're meeting to continue our clause-by-clause review of Bill C-53. We left off yesterday on the general discussion of clause 8. That's where we're at. I don't have a speaking list for clause 8.

I had Arnold first and then Gary.

Indigenous Services

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Mr. Chair, Bill C-29 was introduced on the last day of the June 2022 session, which was about the National Day for Truth and Reconciliation. Bill C-38 was introduced on December 14, 2022, and not revisited until 11 months later, again on the last day of a session. Bill C-53 was introduced on the last day of the session in June of 2023, and today we have the introduction of water legislation, not on the last day but the last week of a session.

Does the member believe that the government is serious about its promise to indigenous people when, at the last moment and at the end of the last four sessions of Parliament, the government chooses to introduce indigenous legislation?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Madam Chair, I thought the member was going to talk about Bill C-53.

Nonetheless, I would note that the Alberta government has been one of the few governments in this country to put together a fund so that indigenous communities could have an equity stake. They can use that fund to pursue equity stakes in major energy projects. This has brought economic reconciliation to first nations across northern Alberta, ensuring that all Canadians get to participate in the economy and ensuring prosperity for everyone.

When people can take home a powerful paycheque, it gives them the freedom to live their life in the way they feel is necessary. I will never apologize for ensuring that we can have full economic reconciliation in this country.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I guess I'm not feeling more informed about what feels like a fast-tracking of one Métis right to self-government as opposed to another in the same territory. It would be so useful to understand how that worked and in what way the Metis Settlements General Council formed part of the decision-making as to what would happen with Bill C-53. I don't know what limitations you have to share that information.

When we need to recognize, unfortunately, through this process that Métis have the right to self-government, I am very concerned with what's going to happen in Alberta, based on the testimony that we heard, because individuals can choose who they want to represent them. What will happen with the citizenship of the Metis Settlements General Council because of what's happening with the recognition of the Métis Nation of Alberta?

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

When you're talking about core Métis governance in Alberta, and Bill C-53 seeks to recognize the Métis Nation of Alberta, setting aside that there are separate negotiations, do you think that...?

Also, this bill talks about UNDRIP and when the duty to consult would be triggered. Have you analyzed whether free, prior and informed consent has been triggered, considering that core governance in one territory would be impacted against another?

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

That flows logically to my next question.

When you were talking about your partners in developing Bill C-53, was the Metis Settlements General Council considered a partner in this codevelopment process?

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Qujannamiik.

Uplaakut. Good morning.

I don't get to say “uplaakut” to this group very often. We normally meet in the afternoons.

I do appreciate the line of questioning from the Conservatives this morning.

Based on the responses from the table, from the witnesses, I do have some questions that I want to get clarification on. In Canada's history, with Canada's colonial history, what Canada did to get rid of not just our cultures, not just our languages but our governments is still felt today.

I think the fact that we have to use legislation to recognize their self-government is what's frustrating, and that's what we've heard from first nations and Métis throughout this study. The fact is that legislation recognizing an indigenous governing body is still a form of colonialism.

Having said that, I've always tried in this study to make sure that I'm founded in the fact that Métis do inherently have a right to self-government. Through this study, we've learned that there have been a lot of infringements and valid concerns about what this Liberal government has done to get Bill C-53 on the table. Because of that, we've heard that a lot of division has been created, not just between first nations and Métis, but Métis against Métis, which is the most disrespect that I've seen.

It's so unfortunate that we learned through this study that while MNA, the Métis Nation of Alberta, was doing great work to be recognized as a self-governing body, at the same time, the Metis Settlement General Council was being ignored and was not a part of these discussions. To see that division in Alberta between the Métis is a huge injustice, and that's what we're grappling with here today. That's what we, as parliamentarians, are trying to reconcile, because we should not be seen to be trying to diminish the good work of the MNA because of what it will cost to the Metis Settlement General Council.

We do need a lot of clarifications if we're going to support this bill because we do not want to.... I know I do not want to play a part in creating more division among indigenous peoples.

When you were responding to Mr. Vidal about indigenous governing bodies, one of the responses from you was that Bill C-53 was codeveloped with partners. Can you talk more about what that process was and why it is that your partners are so adamant that “Indigenous governing body” be included in clause 8?

That's my first question.

[Julia Redmond]

To clarify, Bill C-92 contemplates a broader set of possible indigenous governments than is covered in Bill C-53.

Bill C-53 concerns only Métis governments. We're talking about a particular category. It's a subset of indigenous governments. Because Bill C-92 is broader, the definition of “Indigenous governing body” makes sense in that it would capture a broader set of indigenous governments.

They're trying to do two different things.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Good morning. I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 89 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

Let me go through my introductory comments.

We recognize that we are meeting on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples.

We're continuing to meet on clause-by-clause of Bill C-53, an act respecting the recognition of certain Métis governments in Alberta, Ontario and Saskatchewan.

We only have members online today. The members online know how this works. I'm not going to go through all of the interpretation and muting and things.

I'd like to welcome back our officials who are joining us on a lovely Monday morning. Thank you for being here.

For clause-by-clause, I think everybody knows how it goes now. With regard to the point that was raised last week, I'll make sure I give an opportunity for people to weigh in, if they want to weigh in on any given clause.

Where we left off was with debate on clause 8 and amendment CPC-3.2.

I'll ask, from the Conservatives, whether a member would like to move CPC-3.2.

Mr. Zimmer.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

I'm going to provide a ruling from the chair. I'll ask for your indulgence as we go through this.

Clause 5 of Bill C-53 provides that treaties entered into by a Métis government and His Majesty in right of Canada may be brought into force on a date fixed by the Governor in Council, once the Governor in Council is satisfied that the conditions for the coming into force of a treaty by the Métis government and the Government of Canada have been met.

The amendment proposes that both Houses of Parliament must affirm, by resolution, that the requirements for the coming into force of a treaty have been met before the Governor in Council can fix the date on which a treaty can come into force and add the necessary information to the schedule.

As House of Commons Procedure and Practice, third edition, states on page 770:

An amendment to a bill that was referred to committee after second reading is out of order if it is beyond the scope and principle of the bill.

In the opinion of the chair, subjecting the coming into force of a treaty to the affirmation by resolution of both Houses of Parliament is a new concept that goes beyond the scope of the bill as adopted by the House at second reading. Therefore, I rule this amendment inadmissible.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I have explained it in what I just read. Briefly, it's beyond the scope of the bill passed at second reading. That's where we have exceeded the.... We're beyond it.

Bill C-53 seeks to recognize the right to self-determination of certain Métis collectivities. This amendment is contrary because it would not recognize any right or claim of any Métis collectivity that's represented by a Métis government set out in column 1 of the schedule. That's where it exceeds.

With that, there's no debate allowed once we get into it. That's the explanation, so we'll call the required vote with our clerk leading that.

The question is whether to sustain the chair's ruling that NDP-2.1 is inadmissible.

(Ruling of the chair sustained: yeas 6; nays 5)

(On clause 4)

This leads us to clause 4.

First up, we have CPC-1.4. Would the member like to move this amendment?

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

On this one, there is a ruling I'd like to share with the committee.

Bill C-53 seeks to advance the recognition of the right to self-determination, including the inherent right of self-government, recognized and affirmed by section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982, of certain Métis collectivities and the recognition of the authority of Métis governments to act on behalf of those collectivities.

The amendment seeks to clarify that “nothing in this Act is to be construed as recognizing any right or claim of any Métis collectivity that is represented by a Métis government set out in column 1 of the schedule”.

As the House of Commons Procedure and Practice, third edition, states on page 770, “An amendment to a bill that was referred to committee after second reading is out of order if it is beyond the scope and principle of the bill.”

It is the opinion of the chair, since Bill C-53 seeks to recognize the right to self-determination of certain Métis collectivities, that the amendment is contrary to the principle of the bill; therefore, the amendment is inadmissible.

That's the ruling of the chair on NDP-2.1.

Mr. Viersen.