Afghanistan Committee on April 25th, 2022

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Although there were some people who were talking about the deteriorating situation in Afghanistan, I think you saw the world community of like-minded nations respond at about the same time. I'll be the first to say, though I wasn't in this position at the time, that the fall of Kabul happened more quickly than I had anticipated. We can talk about the different levels of relative presence on the ground, but if I put it into perspective, I think the United States had 110 planes on site. Canada, at the time, having ceased our military operations a number of years before, had two, and one of them wasn't in great working order.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Minister, we've heard testimony in this committee that, in fact, there was Canadian intelligence on the ground for months before who were informing our embassy and this government as to the movement of the Taliban and what was happening, yet we also heard testimony from the ambassador that it all seemed to happen within a day or two.

There's conflicting testimony at this committee, but anyone watching the Taliban's movements would have seen them on the move. Certainly people in the official opposition and veterans were telling your government, “This is happening, and we have to get these people out.”

We seemed completely ill prepared, and now we're in a situation where your department—now you are the minister—seems to expect these allies and their families to apply online for any amount of assistance. How do you expect them to do that when the Taliban is in control of the country? They can't just go to an Internet café. They can't use cellphones or computers because they're being hunted down.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Give a quick response, please.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

There was a lot wrapped up in the question.

One of things you come to realize when you take over the helm of an effort like this is that there are very real challenges that people who are trying to access your programs have. You do what you can to accommodate as many people as possible.

The things that keep me up at night, despite the fact that you get an immense reward when you meet people who have come and have a new lease on life in your country or your community, are the people who aren't able to access the program. That stays with you.

There are going to be challenges. There are going to be people who don't make it into the program, but we do everything we can to facilitate people's participation in the program, whether it's by setting up dedicated service lines to call or email, or where we have access to them in person to make exceptions to those practices. You try to respond to the individual needs of the people you're trying to help as best you possibly can.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Madam Findlay.

Now I will go to Ms. Damoff for five minutes. Please, go ahead.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Minister, thank you for joining us tonight and for the work you and your team are doing in Afghanistan, Ukraine and around the world.

We had a number of NGOs here early in our committee meetings that talked about the terrorist financing rules that Canada has in place and the issues they have caused in delivering aid, education programs and many other things to Afghanistan. I'm wondering what you're seeing in terms of immigration, because we have heard a lot about Afghans being unable to leave the country, and whether that terrorism financing legislation is causing issues on the immigration side as well.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you very much for the question.

One of things that's a bit odd is that this is a law that was developed a number of years ago in response to a very different circumstance. I would hazard a guess that the drafters weren't contemplating a scenario of its application where a terrorist organization would seize control of a country and assert its authority to govern.

It has created certain challenges. I think you've heard testimony from other witnesses more on the humanitarian aid point of view. There are some things.... My chief obstacle right now is more tied to safe passage. In theory, when you start to think about the different kinds of operations you could have—should you gain access to the country—if there are some taxation issues where the Taliban's trying to collect funds, it could pose challenges.

It's something that we're looking at. It seems to be more of an immediate concern on the humanitarian side of things, but it's not without application in the immigration context, so we're keeping an eye on it and looking to see if there are solutions we can advance before it starts to cause greater challenges. It's something we have to watch closely but, to date, the far bigger challenge I'm facing is the safe passage of Afghans throughout the country and then onward for travel to Canada.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

On safe passage, one of the groups to whom I spoke has said they could assist with that safe passage if they were able to get funds on the ground.

Have you heard that, Minister?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

In the early days of my tenure in this position, there were some conversations—I risk stepping on the toes of one of my colleagues—about the role of Global Affairs and partnering with some groups like that. It hasn't been a frequently cited challenge that has come up for those who might be able to facilitate safe passage.

I'd also point out that we are partnering with groups right now that have now moved almost...very soon, it will be nearly 3,000 people outside of the country. There are ways to work where we don't have fears that this particular challenge will be engaged, but it is something, in case other solutions present themselves, that we need to consistently look out for.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Minister, you talked a lot about the challenges with third countries. Even for people who are able to get out of the country, it has been a challenge. We heard testimony from people who asked, “Can't Canada just give them their documents?” Ms. Kwan was asking you a similar question.

Are these countries, like Pakistan, accepting Canada's documents? It sounds like a good solution when you hear it, but on the ground, does it help people get out of the country safely?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I'll ask your forgiveness in advance. There's no clear answer for any given individual when they show up at the border of a third country from Afghanistan. The requirements seem to shift over time, depending on which mode of transportation they've used or whether they've crossed in accordance with local laws. As Ms. Kwan pointed out, many people seek to cross contrary to local laws in order to protect themselves. All of these factors impact how a country will respond to the different documents they have on hand.

With respect to certain travel documents that would permit a person to travel onward to Canada, we have made a decision that, before they get permission to travel to Canada, they need to be approved under the process and complete the process of getting here. We don't want to shortcut the process by issuing a travel document that gets a person to a third country but not on to Canada. We do want to make sure that, when a person gets that travel document, it's to come to Canada.

There are other things we're willing to do to work with people as they get partway through the process, such as completing their eligibility screening and getting their initial biographic details. We can provide information to that applicant about the status of their application. If they want to try to use it, they're free to, but we can't consistently say that a certain document entitles them to enter or exit a different country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much, Ms. Damoff.

We'll move to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for two and a half minutes, please.

Go ahead.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to continue with Ms. Damoff's line of questioning. The fact that the Taliban are designated as a terrorist entity creates certain challenges. NGO representatives who appeared before the committee told us that it was hard for them to carry out their work on the ground—provide humanitarian assistance—because they were afraid of being prosecuted under Canada's Criminal Code. They made that very clear to the committee.

I put forward a motion in the House calling on the government to simply reassure NGOs that they would not be prosecuted for doing the important work they want to do. Every party except yours supported the motion, Minister. If I put forward the motion again, would you be able to convince your fellow members to support it the second time around? I believe a number of members in the Liberal caucus wanted to support the motion.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you.

You'll have to forgive me if I don't have the fine details of the motion.

I would want to make sure that we move forward.

Just for the sake of clarity, I would like to make sure that this legislation doesn't prevent humanitarian aid from going to vulnerable people or potentially interfere with other aspects of the Government of Canada's efforts in Afghanistan. Whether it's the proposal that your motion identified or not, I would want to make sure I have the benefit of legal advice. I would hate to create what feels like a great solution before the House of Commons, where we all feel good about having tried to do something positive, but which potentially doesn't actually solve the problem.

I think we want to get the legal solution the right way.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

You are in cabinet. This is something NGOs are asking for, and even your fellow minister Mr. Sajjan told us that there still wasn't a legal opinion on the matter. Meanwhile, the situation has been going on for eight months.

How is it that your government hasn't sought a legal opinion to address the situation and really help people on the ground, when it would be so easy to do? Do you see that as a problem?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I can't speak to what conversations were had about this going back to the very beginning. I think it's the kind of thing that we should continue to look for a solution for. Whether it requires a legislative fix or whether it's something that can be avoided by the nature of the activities we conduct ourselves in will depend on a bit of further analysis we need to conduct.

I don't have time to get into a full answer because I'm running out—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Why hasn't it happened already? That's my question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

We'll move to Ms. Kwan for two and a half minutes, please.

Go ahead.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

The minister's answer to Ms. Damoff is actually contradictory. On the one hand, Afghan interpreters' families have said that they are told they need to get to a third country. Then when they get to a third country, they're asked what they are doing there and told that they need to actually be in Afghanistan because they can't be guaranteed passage if they're in a third country. On and on it goes in a circle, and nobody can actually figure out what the right thing to do is.

People have used all different kinds of measures as best they can in survival mode to try to access safety. I would urge the minister to use flexibility in terms of addressing these issues for these families instead of the rigid approach where they have to go through A, B and C in order to get to D. Otherwise, people will not be able to get to safety.

I also have this question for the minister. Human rights defenders have received written messages from GAC indicating that their applications have been deemed eligible by GAC for the special immigration measures and have been forwarded to IRCC for processing. That was eight months ago, yet IRCC has not even acknowledged receipt of the application. What is the holdup?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

You asked two questions or made two points.

On the first, with respect to third countries, my understanding is that people are, by and large, being told they should try to get to a third country in accordance with the laws of that country. In this conversation, the documents we are talking about issuing don't typically entitle a person to enter another country. A journey document to Canada doesn't necessarily mean that you get into another country.

Similarly, exit controls that a third country may put in place may depend on what documentation a person has. If they haven't entered in accordance with local laws, I understand this can be a factor that interferes. It looks like you want to....

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Minister, you have 30 seconds to answer my other question. Please don't repeat the same stuff over again.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

With respect to the individual circumstances.... On the referral piece, I would typically have to dig in to see the status of an individual case file. Once somebody is referred to our program, we would typically start processing it.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I'm happy to pass that information on to the minister, but it's not just one case. There's a class or group of people who are getting stuck and not getting to move forward with their application. They are stuck with IRCC. It is the red tape that is being created.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you, Ms. Kwan. I appreciate your intervention.

Now, I would love to welcome the Honourable Erin O'Toole again. I'm sorry for the mix-up in the last meeting. I was a bit emotionally impacted.

Mr. O'Toole, you have a full five minutes today. Please go ahead.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.