Afghanistan Committee on April 25th, 2022

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks, Minister, for appearing before this committee.

Minister, there has been a lot of confusion among the public and at this committee about the differences between the situations of people looking to leave Ukraine and those looking to leave Afghanistan. Could you briefly explain some of the differences, such as Canada's ability to operate in each country and the ease with which people can leave each of those two countries?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I think that's a fair question to ask, but what I see when I look at the different challenges with the effort to bring Afghan refugees to Canada and Ukrainians who are seeking temporary safe haven, is that there are some similarities, in that people are fleeing conflict zones at the hands of evil. In terms of the logistical challenges and the appropriateness of different immigration measures, there are some unique facets that I think are worth exploring.

Some things that make Ukraine, from a logistical point of view, somewhat simpler, is that we have operations in and around that region. We've had the opportunity to move equipment into the region because we have long-established presences throughout Europe. I think we have 34 locations where we have visa application centres and biometrics kits, etc. We were able to move people to the region to prepare for this ahead of time.

Similarly, even today there are still significant numbers of people who are seeking to flee Ukraine who can flee westwardly. Although it's very dangerous compared with a Canadian standard, people are able to exit the country to the west and travel throughout Europe to other locations where we may have a presence. That's not true in Afghanistan. We don't have a military or diplomatic presence there now. We don't have access to people for the purpose of collecting biometrics.

The other big difference, and this is a really difficult one, is that when I speak with Afghan refugees who've made it to Canada, they love their homeland just as much as I love mine and just as much as Ukrainians love theirs, but the really heartbreaking piece to the conversation is when they share with you that they know it's not going to be safe for them to go back. They need to have a permanent resettlement program. With respect to those who are coming from Ukraine, we hear time and time again that the people who are seeking to come here need a safe place to stay while the war ravages their homeland, but they intend to return to Ukraine when it's safe to do so and want very much to be part of the rebuilding of Ukraine on the back end.

These different scenarios create different challenges. At the end of the day, though, I think it's important that we use the right tool for a unique job in each circumstance.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Minister, my next question is with regard to the situation of Afghan refugees who are currently in Pakistan, one of the bordering countries that has accepted refugees from Afghanistan. A large number of Afghans are presently in Pakistan.

Could you please discuss the challenges facing Afghans who want to enter this country and how long Afghan refugees are able to stay? What is needed from these refugees? What can Canada do to allow them to travel to Canada? How can we make that process easier for them?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you for that. Obviously when you just look at the geography, Pakistan provides one of the handful of places people have been able to get to since this mission began. We actually are seeing significant numbers of people move through Pakistan now and onward to Canada. In fact, the flight I mentioned that landed in Calgary last week with some of those who made a contribution to our mission came through Pakistan. I believe one of the two landing this week is also coming from Pakistan. Therefore, we are seeing significant numbers of people moving.

It's not that simple for everyone who has made it to Pakistan. One of the challenges I find really difficult in this position is that, in different third countries, there are sometimes exit controls put on a person's ability to travel, and those requirements somewhat change by times. Sometimes there are controls on their entry based on what documentation they need. Sometimes it depends whether they've travelled by road, walked across the border at an irregular point of entry or come in by air. When you have changing criteria to enter the country and exit controls that are beyond the control of the Government of Canada, it can make it a real challenge. We continue to have conversations with our partners in the region, organizations that have relationships on the ground, to do whatever we can to prevent the circumstance where people get to a third country but then face the potential that they might have to go back before they can be eventually resettled in Canada.

It is not an easy problem to solve, but I'm very encouraged by the recent flight that landed and the one that will be landing this week.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Okay. Quickly, can you please discuss the sponsorship agreement holder organizations that are willing to sponsor people, privately sponsored refugees? Is there any plan that their quota will be increased specifically for the Afghan refugees or do they have to remain within their specified quotas for the year?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I don't have much time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Minister, you have two seconds.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

We'll keep looking at options to do more with our partners as sponsorship agreement holders. They're excellent partners to work with when it comes to private resettlement, and we'll keep looking at options to do more in partnership with them.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you, Mrs. Zahid. Your time is up.

Now we'll go to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for six minutes.

Please go ahead.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the minister for making himself available for two hours today. That is very generous of him.

Minister, the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration issued a press release calling on you to waive the UNHCR refugee determination.

Will you be following that recommendation, yes or no?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Indulge me for 30 seconds, because it's a little more complicated than an ordinary decision to waive the refugee status determination.

I'm looking at the 40,000 refugee commitment. We have nearly half that group. It's likely to be made up of those who've made a contribution to Canada. We've already waived that requirement for that group. We're working with sponsorship agreement holders who are largely resettling people who are outside the country. They don't need refugee status determination already if it's a sponsorship agreement holder working with people outside the country.

I'm looking at the extended families of the previously resettled interpreters who came in 2009 and 2012. They don't need one either. When I'm looking at our suite of programs, I don't see that there will be a need to waive, because the people who are going to make up our program don't require it already.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Minister, I gave you 30 seconds to answer my question.

I was looking for a yes or no answer. The request was made by the committee, which your parliamentary secretary sits on, by the way.

I gather that you can't provide a yes or no answer.

The Liberal members of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration support the request. Have they at least reached out to you about it?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I'm sorry. Are you asking whether they made a request?

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

It was a news release issued by the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Yes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

The Liberal members were supportive of the news release.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

From my perspective, we don't need to, because we already have for the groups that are coming in. There's a unique issue around other private sponsors—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

All right.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

—but we don't currently have a plan...for those other private sponsors.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

You're saying you don't need to.

You also said that Canada had welcomed many Afghans under the government assistance program. Why did the UN not provide any of its available annual spots so that the applications of Afghan refugees could be forwarded to Canada?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

We're working with different referral partners. The UNHCR has had a bit of a challenge, because its capacity in the region over the last number of years has dwindled significantly. It is starting to ramp up operations in the region in the last couple of months. However, our referral partners are not just the UN. We work with the United States and non-profit partners.

For the people who made a contribution to the government's mission in Afghanistan, we use DND and GAC. The UNHCR is one of the referral partners we use, but not the only one. That's perhaps why it may have a smaller number in this particular effort compared with other traditional refugee resettlement programs.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

We've heard from many groups on this next issue, and you've probably met with some of them.

Can you tell us why you have not recognized the Hazaras as a persecuted group?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Hazaras could qualify on the basis of referrals into our program with some of these organizations as a religious or ethnic minority that is discriminated against by the Taliban. They could be eligible, but we do rely on the referral partners that we work with to assess their vulnerability before they are entered into the program.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Are you considering that at all? It's a measure that would make a big difference for members of the community right now.