Afghanistan Committee on May 9th, 2022

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you very much for being here with us today.

Thank you, Deputy Minister, and the members of the leadership of the armed forces, for being here today.

We're here to talk about Afghanistan, but I want to take a moment, if I could, to express my thanks to you, Minister, and to everyone here—the deputy minister and the leadership of the armed forces—for all the work you are doing to support our friends in Ukraine to defend their own sovereignty, but also, indirectly, by helping them to do that, you're helping them to defend our own security here in Canada, Europe's security and our allies' security today and for the future. I want to express my sincerest thanks for all you've done in that regard.

There have been some suggestions, Minister, at our previous meetings, that Canada is treating Afghan refugees and Ukrainian refugees differently. Some of your colleagues who have been here have pointed out that there are important factors and challenges that are creating very different situations.

Given the role of the armed forces in Poland, I wonder if you can speak to those differences from an operational perspective.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you so much for the question.

First and foremost, I'd like to point out that there are significant differences between these two situations. In each case, the Canadian Armed Forces are working extremely diligently and with the responsibility and devotion that they bring to the table every single time there's an operation. I, as minister, could not be more grateful on behalf of our government for the fortitude and dedication that the Canadian Armed Forces show every single day in domestic and international operations, whether it be in Afghanistan, Ukraine or here at home, dealing with floods and fires.

To directly answer your question, first and foremost, our relationship with the Ukrainian government is extremely close and co-operative. That obviously was not the case, and continues not to be the case, in Afghanistan, given that the Taliban is a known terrorist organization.

Secondly, the Ukrainians are actively assisting their citizens to escape the terror being inflicted on them by Vladimir Putin, whereas the Taliban—as I said, a known terrorist entity—is actively oppressing its citizens. There's a fight for democracy in the one country, Ukraine, where there is clearly not a fight for democracy in Afghanistan.

Furthermore, in Ukraine, there are borders shared with close allies. In particular, I would point out the Polish border. Poland is a very close NATO ally. When we deploy Canadian Armed Forces personnel in a peaceful operation—as we have by sending 150 Canadian Armed Forces personnel to Poland to assist with the influx of refugees—we do so with the consent of the host nation.

I would say that our efforts in Ukraine are facilitated not only by the government and the leadership there—as shown by Prime Minister Trudeau's visit to Ukraine yesterday—but also by NATO allies that surround some parts of this country.

There are, therefore, marked differences between the situation in Afghanistan and Ukraine, and those differences should not be overlooked.

Thank you.

Wayne, would you like to add anything?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

I'll add that our role in Poland is one of a humanitarian nature. We are there supporting the Polish Territorial Defence Forces in the staffing of their reception centres.

Some have asked why we weren't there right away. The simple answer is we weren't needed. The Poles didn't ask. We were ready, right from the day of the invasion, to send in a force to help the Poles. However, when the Poles asked, we were there in very short order. That work continues.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Minister, I think I have about a minute and a half left, so I'll ask my question and we'll see how much we can get through.

We have heard a variety of testimony about the number of people who were on flights, as well as some criticism that Canada could have evacuated more people. We also understand that the situation on the ground was incredibly challenging. We've heard about that here at this committee.

My question is, what kinds of constraints were CAF personnel on the ground, including RCAF crews, facing?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Your question raises a very important piece of context for members of the committee with regard to what was happening on the ground.

As we know, the Taliban was advancing very quickly, much more quickly than anyone expected. As a result, many thousands of Afghans were converging on the airport more or less at the exact same time. Many of them, understandably, were terrified. This caused obvious challenges in maintaining order and the pressure that our armed forces personnel were operating under.

As mentioned in my opening remarks, the government at the time also placed limits on the number of foreign aircraft allowed to land. We were given one specific time—only one—per day that we could utilize to evacuate Afghan nationals. The fact that we had not had a military presence on the ground since 2014 but were, nevertheless, able to bring our aircraft in to evacuate Afghan nationals—and to do so to the amount of 3,700 people—in my mind is absolutely remarkable.

Again, I would like to thank our Canadian Armed Forces for putting themselves in harm's way to sacrifice what they did in order to help evacuate Afghan nationals alongside our allies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you, Mr. Baker. Your time is up.

We'll move now to the Bloc and Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

You have six minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My sincere thanks to all the witnesses for being here today to take part in this important study.

As you know, the Bloc Québécois's position is that the committee should focus on the current humanitarian crisis and our immediate response. I'm talking about the very short term. Clearly, there will be lessons learned, but I want to focus on what we can do now to help, not only the Afghan people, but also all those who provided support, including Canadian soldiers, and who are still in Afghanistan.

Ms. Anand, you said that you did not meet personally with representatives of the National Resistance Front of Afghanistan, but did members of your caucus or the government meet with them?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I was not privy to those conversations given that I was not the minister at the time.

I will ask my deputy minister or the chief of the defence staff if they'd like to—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

What I want to know is whether members of your caucus met with representatives of the National Resistance Front of Afghanistan. I imagine you would know if I do.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

We are, of course, very much open to continuing to meet with members of any Afghan resistance. I have met them myself, informally, though not in the Government of Canada precinct.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I understand, but my question is very straightforward. I would like to know whether members of the Liberal caucus met with representatives of the National Resistance Front of Afghanistan.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I am not aware of any.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

That's too bad, because I heard that members of your caucus had met with them. I was going to ask you whether you had spoken to those members, but I'm afraid I won't be able to get any further answers. I must say, I'm surprised, but I'll move on.

As I was saying to you, one of my priorities as a member of this committee is to examine what we can do now for the Afghan people. Canada's terrorist financing laws are a major hindrance to humanitarian assistance on the ground.

Has your department issued any opinions on the application of those laws given the current situation in Afghanistan?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Mr. Matthews, please go ahead.

[Bill Matthews]

Thank you for your question.

I would just like to point out that all legal analysis is provided by the Department of Justice. The answer for my department is no.

The chief of the defence staff may have something to add regarding the judge advocate general.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

General Eyre, please go ahead.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

The deputy minister is right. We have not received an opinion on that.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

That's actually quite normal.

Minister, should those laws or the Criminal Code be amended in fairly short order to make it easier for non-governmental organizations, NGOs, trying to help the Afghan people?

That's what we want to do—help them—but the NGOs are telling us that Canada's Criminal Code is throwing a wrench in the works.

Don't you think that's a problem?

Where do you stand on that?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you for your question.

The Taliban are on the Criminal Code list of terrorist entities, as you pointed out. Currently, no mechanism is available to exempt humanitarian or other such activities from the anti-terrorism measure set out in paragraph 83.03(b) of the Criminal Code.

Our government is working hard to find ways to keep aid flowing effectively to the Afghan people and to support their resettlement, without compromising national security.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Quite right.

The Bloc Québécois agrees that the Taliban should remain on the list of terrorist entities, but we want to make sure that NGOs can provide humanitarian assistance to Afghans without fear of prosecution. We know that the humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan is one of the worst on the planet right now, along with what is happening in Yemen and other parts of the globe.

The UN changed its tune, as they say, by adopting resolution 2615, which provides protection to NGOs that deal with the Taliban, while maintaining the Taliban's designation as a terrorist entity.

The committee has heard from ministers who told us that they would be waiting for our recommendations on Afghanistan. With all due respect, I would say that, if everyone agrees that there is a problem, they don't need to wait for the committee's recommendation in order to do something. Action could be taken immediately because people need help as we speak.

Is it really necessary to wait to see what the committee recommends? I'd like to hear your view on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, even though your time is up, I'll give Minister Anand time to respond.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Go ahead, Minister.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you for your question and your interest in this issue.

My fellow minister, the Minister of Justice, would be able to answer that better than I can. What I want to make clear right now is that Canada has no intention of recognizing the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Minister.