Afghanistan Committee on Jan. 31st, 2022

[John Aylieff]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's my pleasure to answer the question from member Mr. El-Khoury.

As I say, we're grateful for Canada's financial support, not just to the World Food Programme but to all humanitarian agencies working on the ground.

I want to point out that with humanitarian operators, assistance provided by donors goes through us directly to the people. We adhere very strictly to principles of independence. No money or assistance is channelled through the Taliban or through government structures, if you will. We have insisted from day one on full independence of our actions. That means that any assistance is based on an independent assessment of needs, that our assistance is distributed only by our implementing partners, and that monitors are present at every single distribution. This allows us to keep our operational independence as part of our broader humanitarian principles.

The Taliban on the whole have facilitated humanitarian operations across the country. We have better access than we did when the war was going on, and they've respected, largely speaking, the rules of engagement.

In the aftermath of the takeover on August 15, there was a sort of crackdown on humanitarian workers, female humanitarian workers coming to work in certain areas. Bit by bit and through soft diplomacy behind closed doors, we have renegotiated that now, and I can happily say that all women workers from WFP and many, I believe, humanitarian organizations are now back at work without conditions. Some of them have to have a male escort in certain areas, but I would stress that that was the case in certain areas before the takeover of the Taliban.

So it's challenging to work with the Taliban, but we're finding a way through, insisting on the humanitarian principles and particularly on our independence.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you.

Mr. Hamilton, go ahead, please.

[Patrick Hamilton]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you also to the honourable member for the question.

I have a very similar answer to Mr. Aylieff's. Again, I say a huge thank you to the Canadian government for the $4.5 million Canadian that funded the ICRC's programming in Afghanistan during 2021. We equally seek to spend that ourselves directly, through the different programs we have in Afghanistan, while trying to ensure that all of that money gets directly to those for whom it is intended.

In the wake of the Taliban takeover, we have insisted to them and the authorities that we will continue to insist on our independence and on being compliant with all of the standard ways in which we generally tend to operate as a neutral, impartial, independent humanitarian organization.

Talking in particular about the hospital support project and program that I referenced previously, we actually signed an MOU with the Taliban, with the new ministry of health authorities, let's say, with the understanding that we would not be channelling any of our financing through the ministry itself but would be paying directly the money in salaries, for example, to the doctors, cleaners and health staff in all of these different hospitals ourselves, to each individual staff member. We have our own International Committee of the Red Cross monitoring mechanisms but we have also engaged a German-Dutch third party monitoring company that is also carrying out monitoring for us independently to ensure that the funding that we put through that program is delivered directly to the intended recipients. We are very aware of the need to act in compliance with the various legal parameters and we take with great seriousness the need to ensure that we are in compliance with those.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you, Mr. Hamilton.

Mr. El-Khoury, we have only 15 seconds left if you have something to add quickly. Otherwise I'm going to the Bloc.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Yes, please.

I'm glad to hear that you negotiated something behind the scenes that benefits women.

In terms of your activities in Afghanistan, are there any long‑term programs specifically designed to support the rights of women and girls in the country?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Witnesses, we can come back to it and you can answer it at some point, or quickly, Mr. Aylieff or Mr. Hamilton, if you want to say something in 30 seconds.

[John Aylieff]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Very quickly, for WFP—it's a very good question—we are engaged in school feeding, where we aim to give one million girls incentives to come back to school. I would stress that's mainly at the primary level at the moment, but also, in eight provinces, we're also giving incentives for girls to attend secondary schools, some of which, as you know, are open.

Secondly, we're doing vocational training for women. This is something that we were doing before the takeover, but we have managed to continue that program critical to give these women a sense of hope for the future, if I may put it like that.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you.

I'm going to the honourable Bloc member, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Please go ahead for six minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to start by thanking the witnesses who are here today.

As you may know, this committee was created to focus on the current humanitarian crisis. It's about looking beyond the political games and really focusing on the present and the very short term future to help the people who are suffering. We really want to see concrete recommendations and results quickly. That's what this committee is all about.

I'll try to ask my questions quickly. They're for both of our witnesses.

Canada currently considers the Taliban regime a terrorist entity. On the ground, does this affect humanitarian aid?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

We will have Mr. Hamilton and then Mr. Aylieff.

[Patrick Hamilton]

Thank you very much indeed for the question, honourable member. It's a key question.

We see the authorities in Afghanistan, in light of their previous role, as a party to the conflict in Afghanistan, and therefore, within the scope of international humanitarian law, as a belligerent party with whom we, as a neutral, independent humanitarian organization, are obliged to engage with, precisely to try to protect and assist the people who are affected by the hostilities they are engaged in with the other parties to the conflict. Then, secondly, also now that there is the de facto government of Afghanistan, whose de facto governance clearly has a very substantial impact on the people living in the territory that they currently de facto govern.

Our programming, our presence in Afghanistan, is clearly driven by the humanitarian needs that exist amongst the Afghan population and the desire, the obligation, to respond to those needs. Clearly, on the one hand, we are very conscious of the need to avoid trespassing over the various sets of counter-terror legislation by providing any types of direct material supports to the Taliban as an entity. At the same time, clearly, in these circumstances, we are obliged to engage with them to try to ensure that for the people we need to assist and protect, we can assist and protect them by having access to them, and by having the agreement from those authorities to be able to carry out our work in the way that we do.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Go ahead, Mr. Aylieff.

[John Aylieff]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and my thanks for the question from honourable member Brunelle-Duceppe.

I think that just to underline the fact that the Taliban are a terrorist organization reintensifies our need to remain independent. I spoke about independence in answer to the last question, but that makes this even more critical.

The sanctions carve-out by the UN Security Council has helped immensely to give us the space to operate, and that's all we really needed: the space to operate in a context of where even paying the utility bill of our offices, just to give an example, would otherwise have been at risk of breaching sanctions. The humanitarian carve-out given to us by the Security Council has been critical.

I would just really belabour one point, however. The fact that the Taliban are a terrorist organization—designated—does immensely complicate the current situation, because it has led to the suspension of development aid and the freezing of foreign reserves.

I make no comment on that as a measure. My obligation there is to point out, as has Mr. Hamilton, that the economic crisis, which has been precipitated by that suspension, is very real. As we've said, people cannot find jobs. The levels of hunger and poverty are going up. By mid-2022, if we remain on this current trajectory, there will be almost universal poverty in Afghanistan: 97% of people will be under the poverty line.

We need to find ways, without recognizing the Taliban, without getting away from the fact that they are a terrorist organization, to breathe some oxygen into the economy. Otherwise, humanitarian needs are only going to rise.

Thank you.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

At that point, this—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you have one minute—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Go ahead. You have one minute.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay. Sorry, Mr. Chair. It's just that the responses are really insightful.

At that point, what can we do? Obviously, it's difficult to get the Canadian people and the people of Quebec to accept that our government no longer considers the Taliban terrorists. On your end, this doesn't help you either in terms of the humanitarian crisis.

What's the solution? Do you have any suggestions?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

You have 20 seconds to propose them.

We have Mr. Aylieff and then Mr. Hamilton.

Please keep the time in mind.

[John Aylieff]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would say that we operate first on the levels that are acceptable and that we can control. That means a fully funded humanitarian program. We recognize that the bill for that is immense, at over $4 billion for 2022, but that is the fundamental starting point.

Second is investing in some of the basic services work that Mr. Hamilton of the ICRC was talking about and which organizations like the ICRC are engaged in. If we can't ensure that more than 20% of the health clinics are open, we are going to have an even deeper crisis.

I think these are the starting points that are less controversial while we try to grapple with an admittedly incredibly sensitive and difficult issue of how the economy will be supported in some shape or form.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you.

Mr. Hamilton, you have 15 seconds if you want to say something. Go ahead, please.

[Patrick Hamilton]

Very quickly, I think our hospital program represents a very interesting model that is potentially scalable in terms of, on the one hand, doing some kind of deals with the Taliban as governance, whilst at the same time ensuring that funding is not channelled to them whilst it is channelled into the essential services that are so needed. That needs doing also for the central bank, so—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

I will go to Madam Kwan from the NDP.

You have six minutes, please.