Afghanistan Committee on Feb. 7th, 2022

[Ali Mirzad]

Thank you for that very valid and important question.

Truth be told, all Afghans are suffering now, yes. The Taliban are an enemy and a danger to all Afghan people.

When people leave the country to go to Iran or Pakistan, for example, just all that travelling and crossing the border are a danger in themselves. Once they arrive in Pakistan, in refugee camps like Quetta or elsewhere, they face many sad realities and dangers all around them. For instance, right now the U.N. has no official presence. They have representation under contract with agencies mandated by the Pakistani government and the U.N. They have to go to these offices to get some kind of registration documents, but the documents don't give them legal status. So they run the risk of being arrested at any time and deported to Afghanistan.

Even crossing the border is no easy task. First of all, there's a crowd. I don't know if you remember the crowds at the Kabul airport, but it's three or four times worse than that.

In addition, people sometimes have to pay Pakistani soldiers to let them cross.

On top of all these risks and perils, once they cross the border they are not out of the woods because they can be caught at any time by the Pakistani authorities and sent back to Afghanistan.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

What I understand from this is that Canada also does not have representatives on the ground to help these people apply for the special programs we have set up.

[Ali Mirzad]

That is true, unfortunately. That was one of the suggestions we made in a number of open letters to the Canadian government. We need official representation in Pakistan, Iran and all other neighbouring countries to engage in a dialogue and set up a process, much like our friends the Germans have done.

The Germans have set up a process and established a dialogue with the Pakistani government. They can inform the Pakistani government that certain individuals are German nationals whose cases they are processing, for example, in which case the Pakistani government is asked not to deport them to Afghanistan.

We would like to see the Canadian government more actively engaging in this kind of dialogue and process or coming to an agreement with Pakistan, Iran and other neighbouring countries.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

So our allies have solutions that could guide us. I'd like to remind everyone that we are here to find solutions.

I will go back now to your appearance before the Subcommittee on International Human Rights in June 2021, Mr. Mirzad. Among other things, you called for support for Bill C‑287, which aimed to ensure that all development assistance Canada sends to Afghanistan contributes to peace and security in the region for all people. However, an election was called and that bill died on the order paper.

Are you still calling for that?

[Ali Mirzad]

I absolutely am, yes.

I feel this bill is even more important in today's environment and more timely than ever. Before the election and before Afghanistan fell to the Taliban, the purpose of the bill was to ensure that financial aid sent to Afghanistan was distributed equally throughout the country, and not concentrated in certain communities or regions. Now that the Taliban is back, it's crucial to ensure that aid sent to Afghanistan doesn't fall into the hands of the Taliban, but instead gets to the people who desperately need it.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

So, you're asking members of our committee to be sure to include a recommendation to reinstate Bill C‑287 in the report. It will be assigned a new number, but it will need to be passed.

[Ali Mirzad]

Yes, absolutely.

I'd like to add one last comment. Over the past few months, we've noticed that when aid provided to Afghanistan by the U.N. or other international agencies has fallen into the hands of the Taliban, it has forced the Afghan people to work for it to gain access to the funds or the food programs that get wheat or rice to the people, for example.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

You're over your time. Thank you.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

That's what I thought.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Now we'll go to Ms. Kwan for six minutes, please.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for their presentations and, of course, for their ongoing work in providing assistance to those who are faced with a humanitarian crisis.

My first question is for Ms. Nasiri and Dr. Oates. It centres around the comments you made about the need to ensure that Canadian organizations that are in Afghanistan right now would be able to provide assistance, whether that be aid to children who are dying of malnutrition or to women's and girls' local organizations on the ground. They're unable to do so because of Canada's anti-terrorism laws.

In the previous panel, I asked the organizations if they would support this. If a legal agreement were to be entered into by the Canadian government and those organizations that are long-established here in providing humanitarian aid, would that be sufficient for them to provide humanitarian aid in Afghanistan? That is to say, the Canadian government would provide some sort of measure outside of legislative changes to ensure that staff would not be prosecuted and the organization would not face repercussions in relation to any potential violation of the Criminal Code.

Ms. Nasiri can answer first, and then I'll go to Dr. Oates.

[Khalidha Nasiri]

As I mentioned, we've heard concerning reports directly from smaller humanitarian charities working on the ground that they're receiving resistance from banks here domestically and having problems in Afghanistan with getting aid and goods there because of this law.

We think an MOU would be an acceptable temporary measure, although we need to make sure that some explicit guidance is publicly provided as well, so that banks, for example, can be reassured that it wouldn't count as criminal activity and smaller charity groups that have been operating for a long time would not be excluded from such measures.

[Dr. Lauryn Oates]

I would echo that. There are models we can look to, like the exemptions or licences that are issued to organizations by the U.S. government to be able to continue their work on the ground.

We make our own agreements with the vendors and partners we work with to ensure that no funds of ours end up in the hands of the Taliban. That would be a very important measure.

In addition, I'd echo that the challenges from the Canadian banks are very significant in terms of being able to move funds. If that could be alleviated at all, it would go a long way as well.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I'd like to turn to another question, related to the situation on the ground. We've heard from presenters about refugee or immigration measures, how it's almost impossible—in fact, in many cases it is impossible—for people who are still in Afghanistan to get to safety. The suggestion was to ensure that the Canadian government brings in special immigration measures, such as issuing temporary residence permits to those who need to get to safety immediately, as well as waiving the requirements for documentation.

I'd like to hear from the organizations about this. Is this something you would call on the government to enact immediately?

Go ahead, Ms. Nasiri.

[Khalidha Nasiri]

The short answer is, absolutely. One of the members mentioned that a 10-year-old girl who was eligible to come under one of these programs died because her application was delayed. Last week, we heard of an unnamed brother of a Canadian embassy worker who was killed, presumably by the Taliban in Afghanistan, and whose application was delayed because of paperwork.

Absolutely, we think these measures would work.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

I'd like to go to Dr. Oates and then to Mr. Mirzad on the same question, please.

[Dr. Lauryn Oates]

Absolutely, we need to forge agreements with other governments. Again, this is something the U.S. has done. We have followed suit in so many U.S.-driven policies in Afghanistan that had bad outcomes for Afghans, so it would be good if we also emulated some that could have good outcomes.

I would emphasize that the danger is not in leaving Afghanistan; it's in staying in Afghanistan. That was tragically exemplified in the case of the girl in Kandahar who was killed while waiting to come to Canada.

We, as a small NGO, have been able to get eight families out on our own, without any assistance from the government. I can't say it was easy, but we did it, and many other organizations have done the same. If we had the government supporting us to do the same, we could do so much more. We could get people out.

[Ali Mirzad]

Absolutely. I would echo what our friends Ms. Nasiri and Ms. Oates said. There needs to be a dialogue. I said earlier that the presence of Canada on the ground in Pakistan is, in its way, one form of dialogue that Canada must have with Pakistan. In a similar fashion, Canada can have a dialogue not directly with the Taliban but through an intermediary, such as Qatar or the UAE, to forge an alliance that can help people get out, like the programs the Americans have established.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you very much, Ms. Kwan.

I will go to Mr. Ruff and then Ms. Damoff, for four minutes each. I'll then come back to Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe and Ms. Kwan, for two minutes each.

Mr. Ruff, you have four minutes, please.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

Thanks to all the witnesses for coming. Your testimony is phenomenal, and I really like that you have all provided some great recommendations on the way ahead.

As I told the previous panel, if you're not aware, I spent a year-plus of my life over there in uniform. I left six of my own soldiers over there. What keeps me up and still has me so concerned is the future, especially for the women and children in that country under the Taliban. For those who need to get out, we need to do what we can to get them out now. That's the key focus. Again, the strong leadership that's required by our current government to make decisions and to work around this is essential in all aspects.

I'd like all the groups to weigh in quickly, in particular, on the need to utilize international organizations and other groups that have boots on the ground to get feedback to the Canadian government in order to get these people in need out as quickly as possible, as well as the need to streamline the whole refugee process in this case and to have some exceptions.

We can go to the Afghan Youth Engagement first. Ms. Nasiri, go ahead, please.

[Khalidha Nasiri]

I wasn't clear on what the question was, but I believe you're asking about measures to accelerate the exit of women and girls.

The quickest and most impactful thing would be to waive documentation requirements. That's the number one reason we're hearing about delays. Refugee status determination cards, passports, tazkiras, which are the official ID cards in Afghanistan, biometrics and medical exams, all those things should be waived. They should be worked on once individuals and groups are evacuated and have arrived in Canada.

In short, that's the main measure we think can make a big impact.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Thanks, that's perfect.

Mr. Mirzad or Professor Maley, go ahead.

[Ali Mirzad]

I'll add a comment, and then I'll let my colleague Dr. Maley answer.

Thank you so much, honourable member, for your question, and for your service to my country. We owe you a debt of gratitude. It's unfortunate that despite your sacrifices, the country has come to the state and shape it is in today.

To answer your question, I'll echo what my friend Ms. Nasiri said. It's the documentation, and the nuances of the processes. We're dealing with a country that's surrounded by the Taliban, governed by the Taliban. There's no electricity. There's no Internet. We're expecting people to fill out forms, and do this with the lack of technology.

People are using WhatsApp, which is very risky, because the Taliban's intelligence units are now cracking down on people. We've heard horror stories of people fleeing the country and having their phones confiscated and hacked. The Taliban 2.0 is not the Taliban of the 1990s. They are smarter [Technical difficulty—Editor] the technology to be a threat. We need to remove those nuances and get people out of danger.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Mr. Maley, answer very briefly, please.