Evidence of meeting #5 for Afghanistan in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pakistan.
A video is available from Parliament.
8:20 p.m.
Conservative
Alex Ruff Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON
I'd like you to expand on that a little. Why was that occurring? Was it a lack of coordination among the different departments or the lack of one minister or department being in charge?
As well, there have been rumours and stuff—and I don't know if you have any first-hand knowledge. Was there any sort of interference in the prioritization of who was getting out on certain flights?
8:20 p.m.
As an Individual
Well, IRCC was the department that applications would go through, and they were the ones who were calling people to the airport by email. The Canadian Forces were, in my understanding, manning the gates, and GAC had to approve the people who would get inside. So you had three different departments that weren't all talking to each other. We had folks getting called to the airport, but when they got there, their visa had the names of only some of the people, therefore GAC wouldn't let them in. You had IRCC not talking to GAC; CAF being told—and I spoke with several MPs, including Mr. Mendicino, who told me that the Canadian Armed Forces on the ground would have discretion at the gate. That never occurred. If your name wasn't on a GAC list, you did not get through the gate.
Furthermore, I think there should be an investigation into prioritization of non-Canadian nationals by the Canadian Armed Forces. I have heard that rumour.
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Thank you very much, and thank you, Mr. Ruff.
We will go to Mr. Dong for four minutes.
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
Before I begin, I just want to address a point my honourable Bloc colleague brought up earlier. In my experience at committees, members may choose to use their time for a preamble to a question or may ask questions directly. It is entirely up to the member, according to the Standing Orders. I'm always respectful to my colleagues and to witnesses, but just for the record and for the benefit of the viewers, I want to point this out. I think MP Damoff actually made a few good points in her preamble. One of them was about looking forward, because I think that's a very important part of this study. It's looking forward at what kind of positive changes we can bring to the system.
With that, I want to thank the two gentlemen in the witness panel tonight for their service and for their time in actually sharing some of their views and their experience in evacuating Afghan people who helped Canadians.
Captain Shelson, you mentioned earlier on that there is quite a bit of bureaucracy. You think the system can be improved. Can you elaborate on that? Do you have any specific suggestions as to how the government can make our public service more flexible or more ready going forward?
8:25 p.m.
As an Individual
My question would be “What's the incentive?” What type of incentives are we currently putting in place inside of our government departments to get people to be more efficient?
8:25 p.m.
As an Individual
I find it interesting that Ms. Damoff and Mr. Dong had quite a large preamble at the beginning. I did not even get to speak to Ms. Damoff.
8:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Mr. Shelson, you don't need to make those comments. Just answer the question, please.
8:25 p.m.
As an Individual
How do we improve it? There have to be incentives within our government departments to improve that, and right now, what I have observed within the IRCC during the application process is that there is very little accountability between different levels of management within government bodies. IRCC representatives that were spoken to couldn't even get answers from their bosses. It would take a week to get an answer about what to do with a specific application, and it was all being done remotely, through Microsoft Teams.
Again, if this were a private business, we would be out of business.
8:25 p.m.
Liberal
Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON
Could it be because of the COVID situation that they were working from home, or...?
8:25 p.m.
Liberal
Han Dong Liberal Don Valley North, ON
I mean, you did give credit to the public service. I agree. You gave credit to the public service and frontline workers, and I too have numerous times shown my appreciation for their work during COVID. It's been very difficult. Some of them work 16-hour days to get the work done.
I will take your point back, though, because I'm also on the public accounts committee.
You also mentioned in public that in your view, Canadian soldiers were not given as much flexibility or latitude as their colleagues from some other countries were. Can you talk about what kind of flexibility you meant in those interviews?
8:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Mr. Dong, thank you. Your time is up.
Now I'm going to go to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe. You have two minutes. Please go ahead.
8:25 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Earlier, I simply said that I would be giving the witnesses more time to answer. I didn't say that was better; that was how the member took it.
Now I'll jump right into my questions, seeing what a limited amount time we have.
Mr. Shelson, I asked you earlier what your top priority was, and you said that members should stop yelling at each other and do something. That's great. I am seen as someone who can work with members across party lines. I want to work with all members to come up with solutions.
I want to know what your number one priority is in the very near term, so we can start helping our Afghan friends on the ground immediately.
8:25 p.m.
As an Individual
Well, the folks are still there. Their applications still need to be processed. I can tell you, as a matter of fact, that most of them are backlogged. I don't know where the backlog is. I can't see into that. I would ask this committee to figure out where that backlog is and get it taken care of so that these applications start moving through.
We moved two individuals to Qatar about 12 weeks ago. We have not been able to move anybody since. Everything has completely ground to a halt.
8:25 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Shelson.
Quickly, Mr. Peddle, can you tell me what your top priority is to help on the ground?
8:25 p.m.
As an Individual
Get them out on civilian flights if the Taliban will let them leave, and then go through the process of integration at a third location or here in Canada, under controlled circumstances.
8:25 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
If things continue in the same manner, do you think we'll be able to bring 40,000 Afghan refugees to Canada by next year, as promised by the government?
8:25 p.m.
As an Individual
Right now I would say no. I think the number of folks we got out since September 1 has been abysmal. I do not believe for a moment that we're going to achieve those numbers unless we change things up.
8:25 p.m.
Bloc
8:25 p.m.
Liberal