Evidence of meeting #5 for Afghanistan in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pakistan.
A video is available from Parliament.
8:30 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Mr. Shelson, I didn't get a chance to ask you or get your response on the question around biometrics. Do you mind answering that question now, please?
8:30 p.m.
As an Individual
Do it in a third party country. It's already happening. Have a plan if those folks don't pass, because you're going to have a really hard time dropping them back off in Afghanistan.
8:30 p.m.
NDP
8:30 p.m.
As an Individual
We're doing chartered air flights right out of the Kabul airport.
8:30 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Should the Canadian government engage NGOs on the ground there to help with that work?
8:30 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
I think there are severe limitations with respect to that at this moment as well.
You raised many concerns in terms of what's happened, and some of them you've cited at this committee. We don't have time to get all the examples of where things went wrong. Would you be able to submit to this committee the documentation outlining that?
I think part of the issue here is this: In order to move forward we also have to know what happened in the past. That's how we learn from mistakes. That's what I've been taught, anyway. Is that something you'd be able to do for our committee?
8:30 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Thank you.
My last question, then, is for Mr. Peddle. I think I'm going to run out of time very quickly. In terms of government actions with respect to the backlog, one issue we've learned is that with the Ukraine crisis right now the government's not putting additional resources into addressing that issue. That means IRCC's using the same resources it currently has. Do you think that's going to be a problem?
8:30 p.m.
As an Individual
Yes. Just like in warfare, we can surge; we can reallocate resources to get a robust response in a limited amount of time, even if we're not capable of sustaining that over the long term. I don't understand why we can't do that in other government departments as well.
8:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Thank you very much.
I want to thank both witnesses, Mr. Peddle and Mr. Shelson, on behalf of the committee members, for being here today and for the information that's very pertinent for our committee report and study. All the best.
I am suspending the meeting for a few minutes before we get to the next panel.
8:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
I call this meeting to order. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Should any technical challenges arise, please advise me, as we may need to suspend a few minutes to ensure all members are able to participate fully.
Witnesses should be aware that translation is available through the globe icon at the bottom of the screen. Please select whether you want French or English audio, or none. We will be working, simultaneously, in both official languages.
I would now like to welcome our guests on behalf of the committee members.
From Concordia University, we have Julian Spencer-Churchill, political science professor; from Vector Global Solutions, we have Brandi Hansen; and from Women Leaders of Tomorrow, we have Friba Rezayee.
Welcome to all. I will give each and every one of you an opportunity to speak for five minutes. Please be on time, because we need members to ask questions.
We'll begin with Professor Julian Spencer-Churchill, for five minutes.
8:40 p.m.
Dr. Julian Spencer-Churchill Professor, Concordia University, Political Science, As an Individual
I'd like to thank Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe and the other members of the committee for inviting me today to discuss the issue of assistance to Afghan refugees.
I have taught at Concordia University, in Montreal, since 1998. I have never been to Afghanistan, but I carried out research in Pakistan and on Pakistan for 10 years, from 1999 to 2011. I interviewed close to 100 members of the military, intelligence personnel, police officers and politicians, and I have been to every province in Pakistan, except for Baluchistan.
Over the past 25 years, my western and Pakistani colleagues and I have been struck by the clearly low likelihood of success of NATO's mission in Afghanistan. I will speak more about that later. Our views were published numerous times, but our recommendations were systematically disregarded.
I want to draw your attention to three key points.
First, the economic development of Afghanistan depends on Pakistan, which is the gatekeeper for Afghan exports to India and abroad. Iran and Central Asia lack the infrastructural connection to a viable market. Pakistan has implemented ad‑hoc measures since the expiration of the Transit and Trade Agreement signed in 1965 and updated in 2010.
Second, the Afghan foreign aid community has consistently attempted to sideline the role of Pakistan, with the help of western states, as part of an unrealistic and unsustainable effort to make Afghanistan independent of Pakistan.
Third and finally, the common narrative that Afghanistan’s troubles began with the 1979 Soviet invasion is a false one, and is perpetuated by all actors for various reasons. The Soviet Union invaded to consolidate a regime that was quickly falling victim to rural revolts sponsored by Pakistan, one that would have probably fallen in 1982.
I'll explain why. The border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, delimited by the McMahon Line, is still not recognized by Kabul. In 1948, Afghanistan's defence minister—
8:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Yes. I would like to suspend the meeting for a few minutes to check translation.
8:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
I would like Mr. Spencer-Churchill to go ahead for three more minutes, please.
8:45 p.m.
Professor, Concordia University, Political Science, As an Individual
Thank you.
I was saying that the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, delimited by the McMahon Line, is still not recognized by Kabul. In 1948, Afghanistan's defence minister, Mohammad Daoud, threw his support behind the separatists of the North-West Frontier Province and Baluchistan, which led to a border dispute with Pakistan, lasting until 1963. The equivalent of a battalion was lost by Pakistan in a few years. Afghan trade was seriously disrupted, moving from the north to the Soviet Union.
In 1963, further to a blockade, Mohammad Daoud was dismissed by Afghanistan's king, Zahir Shah. This was followed by a decade that marked the culmination of Pakistani–Afghan relations. Transit and trade across Pakistan resumed. Afghanistan provided transit for Iranian weapons bound for Pakistan, and Kabul served as a base for Pakistani aircraft during the India–Pakistan wars of 1965 and 1971.
In 1973, Mohammad Daoud—
8:45 p.m.
Liberal
8:50 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Mr. Chair, before we go any further, I'd like to know whether we can extend the meeting in light of the technical difficulties.
8:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Don't worry. I'll give you time, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe. You will have your whole time.
8:50 p.m.
Professor, Concordia University, Political Science, As an Individual
Thank you.
In 1973, Mohammad Daoud overthrew the King of Afghanistan, declared support for Pakistan's separatists and triggered a series of internal coups d'état. The Pakistani Prime Minister, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, responded by reaching out to Afghan decision-makers, including the Muslim Youth organization at Kabul University, giving them refuge, money and weapons training.
A revolt sponsored by Pakistan and led by Faizani failed in 1974 and 1975. The failure of agricultural reforms accelerated Pakistani assistance to insurgents, resulting in a massacre of Soviet military advisers and Soviet intervention in late 1979.
The war in Afghanistan was set off by Pakistan, not the Soviet Union or the CIA, contrary to what Hollywood movies and conventional wisdom online claim. I have had countless public disagreements with U.S. and Canadian intelligence officials about that very thing.
Although Pakistan is not capable of influencing the government in Kabul, whatever it may be, Pakistan remains one of the main actors in the mess that is Afghanistan's economy. Until Pakistan is treated as a partner, any investment in Afghanistan's development will be wasted, like every penny spent over the past half-century.
Pakistan is simply asking for a return to the normalcy that prevailed from 1963 to 1973.
Thank you.
8:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal
Thank you very much [Technical difficulty—Editor]
Now we'll go to Ms. Hansen for five minutes.
