Afghanistan Committee on April 4th, 2022

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

With respect to this intelligence sharing at the time leading up to this, a lot of concern has been expressed that the government could have acted more quickly and started evacuation more quickly.

Mr. Chair, does the minister agree that evacuation efforts should have started earlier?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

You have 25 seconds to respond, Minister.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Chair, our evacuation started as soon as we felt the situation was deteriorating. Keep in mind that we had never had a footprint on the ground. Sending that team in gave us far more of an understanding of what was taking place. Evacuations started as quickly as possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

Thank you, Madame Findlay, for your questions.

I will now go to Mr. El-Khoury for three minutes, please.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, and welcome to this committee. Thank you for the good job you did when you were minister of defence.

You're doing a great job in your new portfolio. With the announcement you made last week, which you spoke about in the chamber, you're really doing a great job.

Your presentation gives us a clear idea. By your illustrations and the way you're answering questions, we have a very good degree of understanding of what is going on and the urgency of the situation.

For my first question, Mr. Minister, due to the fact that I am from Quebec, I would like to speak in French here. Feel free, if you want to answer or your deputy minister....

What steps could the international community, including Canada, take to mitigate the economic and financial crises plaguing Afghanistan?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Chair, first of all, I look forward to one day conversing with you in French as I work to improve mine.

We have to look at the immediate crisis that's before us. Right now, it's making sure that people have enough food. That's what we're really focused on. The numbers are extremely dire, so we're strictly focused on that.

We also have to be extremely mindful that there is a Taliban regime currently in power. Absolutely, we're moving full-scale ahead on the humanitarian support that we're providing. We're also mindful that any actions that we take do not inadvertently legitimize the Taliban.

We want to make sure that we hold the Taliban to account for its actions right now. What we're seeing right now is not something we want. We want to make sure we're sending a message that we're here to support the Afghan people. That's exactly what we're doing right now. If the Taliban regime allows all girls to unconditionally go to school, regardless of grade and including post-secondary, that will make it better for them in terms of what further steps we as an international community can take for Afghanistan.

Right now we're focused on humanitarian needs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

You have 30 seconds, Mr. El-Khoury.

[Fayçal El-Khoury, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

What difficulties were caused by the Taliban on the ground that hampered your efforts to continue distributing food or any other assistance?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

From our reports right now from the World Food Programme and some others, we are able to get the food out to the various places. In fact, they're able to go to places they weren't able to go before, which were originally controlled by the Taliban.

The concerns right now are about the Taliban leadership making decisions to not allow girls to have secondary education and that they must have a chaperone when they have to travel a long distance. That's unacceptable to us.

As we provide humanitarian support, which we're able to get through now, we still have to be mindful of everything else that's going on. Our message has been very clear. We will be there to provide humanitarian support for the—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

I'm sorry to interrupt, Minister. The time is up.

On behalf of all members of the committee, Minister, thank you for appearing.

Thanks to the deputy minister, as well.

Thank you for your presentation.

I'll suspend the meeting for a few minutes, so that we can get ready for the second hour.

In the meantime, Minister, you can interact with the members, if you have time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

I call the meeting back to order.

Thank you again to all of the members for being very respectful during the first hour.

Now we'll go to the second hour with the officials. I would request again, members, that you please respect the time and mention who you are putting your question to.

The first round is six minutes each. We'll start with Mr. Ruff, and then we'll go to Mr. Baker, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe and Madam Kwan.

Mr. Ruff, please go ahead for six minutes.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

My first question will be to the ADM, Mr. Thoppil.

How long have you been in your position? Were you in the position you're currently in during the fall of Kabul last August?

[Paul Thoppil, Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia Pacific, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Mr. Chair, yes, I was.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Could you explain who was involved in the decision to pull out our embassy staff and shut the embassy down in mid-August?

[Paul Thoppil]

Mr. Chair, I believe the minister explained that our ambassador had the delegative authority. All of our ambassadors, based on protocol globally and depending on a crisis, have the delegated authority to make the decision of whether or not to close the embassy. It depends upon the situation on the ground.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Thanks.

My next question will be to Ms. Loten.

Can you explain the current ongoing threat a bit more? I'm assuming, based on your position, that you understand the crime and the terrorism links into Afghanistan, but what is the current threat to those Afghan minorities, Afghan women and children in Afghanistan as it stands right now with the Taliban back in control?

[Jennifer Loten, Director General, International Crime and Terrorism, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

The Taliban represents the threat inasmuch as it has a fundamentalist ideology that is very anti-women's rights. It's also a very dangerous regime from an anti-terrorism perspective.

The other thing that's important to keep in mind is that it's a volatile and dangerous situation, where several violent extremist organizations are also on the ground and active in Afghanistan.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

I will not disagree with you.

I have first-hand experience on the ground in Afghanistan. I know how terrible the situation was, even in the best of times, under a legitimate, democratic government, and the challenges in that country. I've seen what the Taliban is capable of doing. That's why I think it's so vital that Canada does everything in its power to get these Afghans who are facing prosecution by and threat from the Taliban out immediately. The focus needs to be on getting them out of the country.

Before I get to my next question, but still to you, Ms. Loten, what is your professional assessment of the risk of Afghanistan becoming a safe haven for increased terrorism, terrorist cells and other organizations?

[Jennifer Loten]

It's a very complicated question. We work very closely with Five Eyes partners and a range of other intelligence partners that monitor specifically those situations and provide ongoing reporting. As to whether or not the Taliban is likely to become a safe haven, I think is going to be as a result of a range of factors. It's looking currently for legitimization from international actors and from neighbours around it, and the degree to which it can organize itself to make deals in those environments would have to do with what arrangements it makes with the terrorist organizations at play in Afghanistan.

One thing I can say—based on the intelligence, and I'm sure that you're aware, as well, sir—is that several of the terrorist organizations currently on the ground in Afghanistan have no interest in the Taliban's ability to develop the capacity to govern and to become a stable presence. In addition to the possibility of it becoming a safe haven for organizations like al Qaeda, we also have to be looking out for violent situations and volatility that are generated from tensions between these organizations.

I hope that answers your question. Again, there are many complex factors at play, and it really is an intelligence-based question.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

That helps, especially your point about the other outside influences to keep the country destabilized.

When did you first become aware of the potential threat of the Taliban retaking Afghanistan writ large or taking the capital?

[Jennifer Loten]

I would suggest that is a question for military intelligence. The degree to which they were in a position to overtake the country was something that took, I think, everybody by surprise. On the timing, certainly ADM Thoppil may have more to say about this.

The speed with which the U.S. departure from Afghanistan converted into a situation where the Taliban were in control surprised, I think, the entire world. I won't go so far as to say it also surprised the Taliban, but I don't think any of us would have predicted an August fall of Kabul.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Well, I'll agree to disagree, I guess, on that. It did fall a lot faster than a lot of us thought it would. I personally was disappointed in how fast it happened; however, I know, as somebody who wrote about it publicly a month in advance of the actual fall and said that we had two weeks at that time to get everybody out, I was disappointed we didn't.

I guess my final question, again to you, Ms. Loten, is: What is your assessment of risks?

One of the push-backs we're getting and what we're hearing, especially from IRCC, is that we can't do...the failure or lack of biometrics. The threat is different, when you compare Afghanistan to Ukraine, to get these Afghans out.

What is the real risk? I don't accept that risk of these cells coming out, of these women and children out of Afghanistan coming into Canada to get them out...if we could create the corridors to get them out of there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

You have only 10 seconds.

[Jennifer Loten]

Can I just ask you to clarify your question, please?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sukh Dhaliwal]

You have only 10 seconds.