Evidence of meeting #6 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was afghanistan.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michel Gauthier  Commander , Canadian Expeditionary Forces Command, Department of National Defence

6:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pierre Lemieux

Colleagues, I'd like to welcome you to the sixth meeting of the Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan.

For those of you in our viewing audience, we are fortunate to have with us today Lieutenant-General Michel Gauthier, who is currently the commander of the Canadian Expeditionary Force Command, known as CEFCOM. General Gauthier also served in Bosnia, and he commanded the Joint Task Force South West Asia in 2002, which included Afghanistan.

General, it's a pleasure to have you with us this evening. I thank you for taking time out of your schedule.

I would ask that you open the meeting with a preliminary statement, and then we'll move to rounds of questioning.

Colleagues, I'm going to suggest tonight that we have two rounds of questioning, one round of seven minutes and a second round of five minutes, as we have committee business to conduct once we're done hearing the testimony of General Gauthier.

On that note, General, please go ahead.

6:35 p.m.

Lieutenant-General Michel Gauthier Commander , Canadian Expeditionary Forces Command, Department of National Defence

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, I thank you for the opportunity to speak with you about the Canadian Forces contribution to the government's mission in Afghanistan.

Canadian Expeditionary Force Command, or CEFCOM as we call it, has been the national focal point for this mission for the Canadian Forces since the command first came into being on the first of February 2006.

CEFCOM was created as one outcome of a broad transformational process for the Canadian Forces, designed in part to improve the way operations are conceived, led, and supported.

My role and CEFCOM's role is threefold: first of all, to exercise effective command oversight over our operations around the globe; second, to shape and guide the conduct of the mission over time, consistent with stated government objectives and strategic guidance from the Chief of the Defence Staff and working closely with our whole of government partners; and third, to work closely with force generators--the army, the navy, the air force--to do everything I can to set the conditions for our men and women deployed in harm's way to succeed in what Canada is asking them to do.

Essentially my role is to provide clear guidance and then to orchestrate support to the mission, leaving the task force commanders, such as David Fraser, Tim Grant, Guy Laroche, and, more recently, Denis Thompson, the freedom to execute their mission in a flexible manner and in a way most responsive to changing circumstances on the ground.

In broad terms, The Canadian Forces mission in Afghanistan is founded on three pillars or main areas of effort. These are to conduct security operations; to build Afghan security force capacity, which will ultimately allow them to assume full responsibility for their own security; and to enable and support the efforts of our whole of government partners to contribute to reconstruction, development and government capacity-building efforts in support of the Afghan people. Our men and women are engaged in all three of these efforts concurrently, but the relative emphasis and concentration of resources among them has clearly evolved since the early days in the south and will continue to as progress is achieved, geographically and seasonally.

I'll now say a few words about our progress over the past 22 months. Many of you have had the opportunity to hear General Hillier make observations about this in the past month or so, and far more eloquently than I ever could. But I can say that I've personally been involved in and focused on the Afghanistan challenge virtually continuously for the past six and a half years.

I was named to this position almost three years ago. Before this, as chief of defence intelligence for three years, Afghanistan was a major focus for me. Of course, before that, as the chairman mentioned, I commanded the national joint task force that included the 3 PPCLI deployment into Kandahar back in 2002, as well as a number of ships and air units deployed to the region in the aftermath of 9/11.

I've had dozens of opportunities to visit our troops in Afghanistan over this period, particularly in the south, and I can say unequivocally that with the Afghans, the international community, and our whole of government partners, we are making progress, though at times it's slower and more uneven than many would wish or expect.

We're under no illusions about the toughness of this mission. The geography is often inhospitable and challenging for operations. Complicated historical and cultural factors need to be understood and accommodated. We've learned that the annual extremes of climate and harvesting periods lead to cycles of intensity in insurgent activity. When the fighting tempo predictably increases after a winter lull, as we're seeing today in the south, this sometimes creates a perception of a setback or of a mission that's not accomplishing what it should be.

I think you'll understand that Afghanistan is one heck of a complex challenge. In our world of 15-second sound bites, it's far easier to bring attention to what's not going well in the mission, because there simply will not be any instantaneous results readily reportable in that 15-second sound bite.

From a Canadian Forces perspective, as successive rotations of our men and women return to Canada, they bring with them a seasoned understanding of the mission's dynamics and help to set internal expectations at the right level. We also have a very successful lessons-learned framework that ensures that we're able to adapt quickly in this very dynamic environment. I can assure you that every new element deploying is better trained and better equipped than the last to understand mission dynamics and to respond to the conditions they will face at the time of their deployment.

We are making a difference. Recall that in the late summer of 2006, in the Zhari and Panjwai districts west of Kandahar, we were facing a determined, well-organized force numbering upwards of 1,000 insurgents who were determined to cut off the major highway in the south to isolate Kandahar City and, ultimately, to make NATO and the Afghan government look weak and powerless to stop them. Civilians had fled the area, and fighting over the subsequent months devastated this key agricultural area. That was 20 months ago.

Today, in an area where we then had the better part of a battle group holding a ribbon of land protected under millions of sandbags for several months, we now have tens of thousands of civilians who have returned and resumed their farming. We've assisted with their agricultural infrastructure. We're building roads and causeways, and creating employment for hundreds of Afghans.

Beyond these signs of qualified progress, I believe our greatest success story of the past two years has been the advances we've made with the Afghan National Army and, to a lesser extent, the Afghan National Police. It's crystal clear to us that the military end-state in Afghanistan will be founded on the Afghan National Army, the police, and other security forces being able to protect and defend Afghan citizens without outside assistance.

Where the ANA, in particular, is concerned, we've witnessed a progression from having no formed units to work with two years ago, to one infantry battalion, or kandak, as we call them in Afghanistan, 18 months ago, to a full brigade of three infantry battalions, a combat support battalion, and a combat service support battalion.

We've adjusted our own force structure over the course of the past 18 months from having only 15 or so personnel involved in training and mentoring to the roughly 220 Canadian men and women who are now engaged full time in training and mentoring ANA and Afghan National Police elements. Our forces now regularly conduct partnered operations side by side with Afghan units and, increasingly, they are leading and we are enabling and supporting their efforts. By western standards their numbers are still small. They aren't as well equipped as they need to be, and it will clearly be some time before they are a self-sustaining force, but they are growing steadily. They're absolutely committed to the defence of their nation. They are tough—as tough and as fearless as any soldiers we've worked with—and most important they're eager to step up and assume responsibility for security, with our help.

Policing has proven to be a more complex challenge, as a rule of law environment is slower to take hold. It is more difficult to mentor these much more widely dispersed forces, which are also more vulnerable to insurgent targeting. Nevertheless, government of Afghanistan initiatives such as the Focus District Development Program, where police training and administration have been revamped, are showing signs of progress.

Through our own Police Operational Mentoring Liaison Teams CIVPOL efforts, we are working hard to reduce police vulnerabilities and help them along the path to thorough and much needed community policing.

All of this is to say that I'm satisfied that our men and women are accomplishing at least as much, if not much more, than we can reasonably ask of them in Afghanistan, keeping in mind that progress, as we define it, will naturally ebb and flow over time. Just over the past weeks, as the poppy harvest has come to an end, the insurgents have resumed their disruptive terrorizing activities. We aren't seeing hundreds of them in one place, as we did two years ago, but we are certainly seeing them in groups of 5, 10, and 15 or so.

It's not completely safe by any stretch of the imagination, and it won't be any time soon. Some parts of Kandahar province are safer than others, and we have been focused on the key districts where a majority of the population of Kandahar lives. Kandahar City, with its large urban setting, will inevitably be vulnerable to indiscriminate suicide attacks for a long time, but by and large it's a busy, bustling city, where people are getting on with their lives despite what is perhaps an undercurrent of fear.

In outlying districts, such as Zhari and Panjwai, the insurgents have most often resorted to indiscriminate IED attacks, as you well know. From time to time, particularly during this time of the year, they will target our forces more directly, sometimes with the tragic consequences we've seen over the past 24 hours. But the pattern of the past months has much more frequently been for them to focus on softer targets, such as the Afghan National Police, who are less able to defend themselves, and to intimidate and prey on more vulnerable civilians, all of this aimed at undermining confidence in and support for the democratically elected Government of Afghanistan. This, of course, is why we all need to continue to confront this challenge squarely and help consolidate the government's presence, along with our Afghan brothers in arms.

As the M. Manley's Panel has recognized, reconstruction and development both depend on security and contribute to it. Certain initiatives can be progressed in the presence of security threats, while others must await a level of confidence by non-military contributors, particularly international organizations and NGOs, that they can operate within their risk tolerances.

On the other hand, projects that meet the daily needs of Afghans engender their confidence in government and reduce their support for and tolerance of insurgents, and an insurgency without local support is ultimately destined to fail.

The government's decision to extend the mission until 2011 has all of us seized with the need to do everything we can at the strategic, operational, and tactical levels to set the conditions for our whole of government efforts to succeed. The increasing Canadian civilian presence in theatre, the numerous impending capability enhancements for our forces to improve security and force protection, and the declared plan to augment our forces in Kandahar province with allies, together will help shape the mission as we move forward. In a general sense, the Canadian Forces will continue to carefully adjust and adapt our approach to the mission, according to Government of Canada policy priorities and emerging programming plans, and consistent with the conditions on the ground as they evolve.

I returned from my last trip to Afghanistan less than three weeks ago, where I joined the Clerk of Privy Council, and David Mulroney, and Rob Fonberg for a portion of their visit. Increasingly what I am seeing over my many visits is the capacity amongst the civilian military team over there to speak the same language and to have a shared view of what needs to be done and what's achievable where and when. After each visit, I walk away inspired by the resilience, dedication, commitment, and professionalism of all mission participants, whether civilian or military, even in the face of adversity and, occasionally, tragedy.

This is a tough challenge for the military and for Canada, but collectively we're absolutely up to it. I think it's safe to say that we've all taken the Manley panel's very sensible work to heart, and much good work is going on here in Ottawa and overseas to give effect to the government's renewed commitment to this mission.

Thank you.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pierre Lemieux

I thank you very much, General Gauthier.

You had mentioned that you were just in Afghanistan. You're probably aware that members of our defence committee travelled to Afghanistan approximately a week and a half ago, and three members from this committee travelled with them. That is just for your information.

I will turn to the Liberals for the first round of questioning.

June 4th, 2008 / 6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will be splitting my time with Mr. Ignatieff.

First of all, General, it is good to see you. It's been a little while, but I am delighted to see you before us.

As one of those who returned from Afghanistan, I have three quick questions. Then Mr. Ignatieff will put his questions on the table and we'll go from there.

Why are we finding more IEDs lately? How much is the success in southern Afghanistan based on eliminating the insurgent leadership cadre? And finally, as long as the FATA region of Pakistan is open to the insurgents as a sanctuary, is it realistic to expect any real progress in eliminating the insurgency threat in the Kandahar region?

And now, Mr. Chair, I will go to Mr. Ignatieff for his questions.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Ignatieff Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON

My questions relate to the training of the Afghan National Army. When I was in FO Base Wilson at the end of January, I saw some impressive work. I want to get a sense of benchmarks going forward: the number of Afghan National Army you expect to train, over what period; your estimate going forward of how soon they will be able to step up and take active combat roles; and the sense in which they will be able to stand up and we will be able to stand back. I am really looking for a sense of benchmarks in that process, a sense of how you see that stepping up over the next years.

The motion that commanded the support of Parliament put a very large amount of emphasis on this point. That is to say, it said the focus of our military presence in Afghanistan from 2009 to 2011 should be heavily focused on essentially finding a replacement for us after 2011. I want to be clear on whether the Canadian Forces understand the motion to mean that and whether they are focusing military effort on the training process with a sense that this is what Parliament wants you to do; this is where we want the military effort to focus, on the training piece of the army.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pierre Lemieux

General Gauthier.

6:50 p.m.

LGen Michel Gauthier

I have challenges with both short- and long-term memory. I actually missed the very first question, Mr. Wilfert. I did not hear it.

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

The first question was why are we finding more IEDs lately. Why are we finding more of them now? This seems to be the major problem obviously in terms of our ability to combat the battle there.

6:50 p.m.

LGen Michel Gauthier

On the first question, to be as brief and succinct as I can, this is not to make light of your question, but actually the more IEDs we find, the better. If we're finding them rather than detonating them, then we're saving lives. Actually, I'm not sure that you meant the question that way, but a part of the answer is that we actually are finding more by virtue of the equipment capabilities, by virtue of our tactics, by virtue also of support from the local population. The number of IEDs that are reported to us by the locals is on the rise. So in that sense, finding more IEDs is a good thing. Not finding more IEDs, but striking more IEDs, is a bad thing.

There is a dynamic between opposing forces where there's action, reaction, counteraction, adaptation, back and forth, and of course we have done that both with our tactics and with our equipment. The insurgents have done the same thing. There are periods--depending on where they are in their adaptive cycle and where we are in our adaptive cycle--where there will be more or less IEDs. I would actually say that, frankly, over the last two, three, or four weeks, there have been quite a few less IEDs. But in the previous period--if you look at the month of April of this past year and compare it to the month of April last year--there were more.

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Those are other elements of what I was looking for, so you've answered that part.

6:50 p.m.

LGen Michel Gauthier

Your second question was to do with the importance of success in eliminating the leadership cadre of the insurgents. That's just one element. There is so much more to this because what we have seen over time is that as you eliminate whatever level of leadership, the effect you have is relatively short term. In some cases it's longer lasting if you have a particularly effective individual who gets replaced by a lesser individual, or you have someone who's particularly key in the chain of command. He might not be a leader, he might be an IED facilitator or a financier or a logistics supporter or whatever. That's just one piece of this. We clearly recognize that this enables success, but it's by no means the be-all and end-all.

The be-all and end-all to winning the counter-insurgency and nation-building effort is to have a capable Afghan government, with effective national institutions, that has and sustains the confidence of its people. That's job one for us in terms of what we need to be supporting, and an element of that is the Afghan National Police and the Afghan National Army. As I'm sure you've heard, our soldiers over there do get that. They understand that clearly.

The third question was about Pakistan. Tough challenge; there are policy dimensions, political dimensions, development dimensions, and to a lesser extent, military dimensions to the solution to the problem. They involve the international community working with Pakistan, facilitating relations between Afghanistan and Pakistan. They also involve what we are engaged in, which is direct engagement with both at the tactical level and at the operational level to try to facilitate meetings. And that occurs on the ground in Spin Boldak where you have Afghans, Pakistan military, and international officers brought together.

Can I keep on going with the answers to the other questions? Do we have time?

6:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pierre Lemieux

We're a bit over time, so we should move on to the next questioner.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Can I ask, Mr. Chairman, to get in writing any answers that are not addressed?

6:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pierre Lemieux

Yes. Thank you.

Ms. Barbot, you have the floor.

6:55 p.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

Mr. Chair, I will be sharing my time with Mr. Bachand.

You told us that progress has been made, in particular in the Zhari and Panjwaii districts, but it is difficult to determine what that means exactly. You referred to people who had left those districts and who have since returned.

What proportion does that represent in comparison to all of the provinces that are not safe?

6:55 p.m.

LGen Michel Gauthier

Do you mean the population that has returned to Zhari and Panjwaii?

6:55 p.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

Yes.

6:55 p.m.

LGen Michel Gauthier

I am not sure. I would say perhaps about 5 to 10 per cent of the population, no more. These are two out of seventeen districts.

6:55 p.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

Are the other districts safe?

6:55 p.m.

LGen Michel Gauthier

I discussed that a bit. They are not completely safe. Some areas are safer than others. That is the nature of the environment. We do what we can with the Afghan army, police and local chiefs, both on the civilian and military side, to try to ensure their protection and encourage them to take responsibility for their own safety, up to a certain point. We are getting there, but the situation varies from village to village.

6:55 p.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

So there are encouraging signs, but no major progress.

6:55 p.m.

LGen Michel Gauthier

Everything is relative, Madam.

6:55 p.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

That's what I'm trying to figure out.

6:55 p.m.

LGen Michel Gauthier

Given the challenges we face in Afghanistan, I think that progress has continued and is stable. However, things are moving forward very slowly, and it's clear that it will take some time.

6:55 p.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

Could you give us an assessment of where we will be in 2011?