Afghanistan Committee on Nov. 18th, 2009

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

And when was Arif Lalani's involvement in this?

[Richard Colvin]

Well, he arrived at the end of April 2007, so....

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

You mentioned Margaret Bloodworth's name earlier. In what context?

[Richard Colvin]

We knew that The Globe and Mail's reporting was coming in April. We had advance notice, so we had informed Ottawa—other people had to—and they developed a kind of detainee response. It was called a diplomatic contingency plan. That had been signed off by Margaret Bloodworth.

There were a couple of occasions when it seemed like the key decisions on detainees were being taken by Margaret Bloodworth, and I think the discussions on Asadullah Khalid also went to Margaret Bloodworth.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I have one more question. I understand that there may have been what is called a decision memo prepared for Peter MacKay to apprise him of the situation regarding torture in Afghanistan. Were you ever able to see that memo?

[Richard Colvin]

I'm not aware of that memo's existence, even.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

You've indicated that the circulation of the June 2006 and May 2006 reports was far and wide, and eventually, a year later, the circulation became narrower. Have you had any chance to talk to anyone from the upper echelons of the civil service in the government that would tell you that they were aware, other people who were aware, of these allegations of torture—DMs, ADMs—other than David Mulroney, Margaret Bloodworth, or Arif Lalani?

[Richard Colvin]

Colleen Swords, certainly. She was key.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Colleen Swords. Other than that, anybody else?

[Richard Colvin]

The Privy Council Office was copied on a lot of them, so the foreign and defence policy adviser, I suppose.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Did you ever talk to Margaret Bloodworth directly?

[Richard Colvin]

I don't remember if I talked to her on these issues. Not that I recall.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

In terms of General Gauthier, you put him on the e-mail list. Did you ever talk to him personally?

[Richard Colvin]

Yes, I talked to him quite a few times.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

You talked about the allegations of torture and about your concerns?

[Richard Colvin]

No.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Why not?

[Richard Colvin]

He's quite a difficult guy, General Gauthier—somewhat unpleasant to deal with. He was a tough guy to talk to. I preferred to use the official channels rather than try to engage him, where he could simply just be rude for no particular reason. It was just a personal sort of way he had of dealing with people.

Maybe that was my experience, but I think he had that reputation. He didn't really like dealing with the civilians. It was kind of his attitude that, you know, “We're in charge. It's our province and we're not interested in what you have to say.” And that was not across the board, but at senior levels, with some officers, it was quite noticeable. I think General Gauthier, in my mind, was the kind of primary advocate of that approach.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

You've left your colleague 30 seconds.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

That's been duly noted, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

And with that warning, you're out of time, Keith. I'm sorry, we'll have to come back to you.

We're over to the government.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I'll start, Mr. Chair, and then I'll hand it off to my colleague.

I just want to make clear what was just said. There was no action memo, that you're aware of, to Minister MacKay.

[Richard Colvin]

I've never heard of that.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you.