Evidence of meeting #15 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was detainees.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Mr. Chair, we have Mr. Tinsley here now. That was the agreement reached by the steering committee, by this committee. I suggest we follow on with the plan we all agreed to.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
Mr. Chair, he has referenced the steering committee; we usually don't, but he has. You may recall we said that we would use as much time as we needed for Mr. Colvin.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
Well, the committee gets to decide that. Anyway, I'll stop talking and we can continue on with our witness.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
4:40 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Mr. Colvin, first of all, a few weeks ago, there were questions about paying your lawyer's bill. I see that she is here, incidentally. She seems to be a nice young lady and she should not have to volunteer her time.
Has the government finally accepted our arguments and agreed to pay her? Has she received the fees for work on your behalf to date?
4:40 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
She has not been paid yet, but there is an agreement to that effect. One problem remains, however, in that they are always trying to limit the number of hours that she works. The amounts they provide are small. They have to be convinced and we have to fight, in a way, for the payments to be approved.
4:40 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
So I can only conclude that, not only were the military uncooperative in not forwarding information to the elected politicians, but also that the politicians are uncooperative in that they want to prevent you from testifying. They are nickel-and-diming with your lawyer's fees at the moment, probably in order to keep you quiet or in order to get you to step out of line so that they can then discredit you.
Does that interpretation make any sense to you?
4:40 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
I would say it does.
4:40 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Mr. Colvin, can you tell us if you received any directives from the government that were intended to stop you from talking, not only to the Military Police Complaints Commission, but also to others such as the media, members of Parliament, or to us here today? Did you receive any directives preventing you from doing that?
4:40 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
Yes, actually, I was told that I could not go before the commission because of section 38 of the Canada Evidence Act . I was also told that the same section 38 also applied to testimony before this committee.
4:40 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
It is important that we talk about section 38 of the Canada Evidence Act. We had discussions with General Watkin who said that there could be legal recourse or that the legality of it all could be reviewed, but that there is a degree of protection before a committee like this one.
Mr. Chair, I have to say to those listening to us that it is likely easier for the government to put an end to an inquiry and to prevent it from proceeding than to prevent a parliamentary committee from proceeding with a study. That is why we are forced to do this today. We are happy that we are able to get to the bottom of things.
I would like to add that I feel sure—and it is something I would like you to confirm—that no Canadian soldiers tortured Afghan detainees. You are an expert in international law, you are a diplomat. Are soldiers vulnerable when they transfer detainees to people who are strongly suspected of inflicting torture? Is this a violation of the Geneva Convention? Is your interpretation the same as mine?
4:45 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
Yes, it is the same.
4:45 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
So the Canadian government and the Canadian military are leaving themselves open to legal proceedings against them when they transfer detainees to authorities who they know full well are going to torture those detainees. Is that how you read it too?
4:45 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
It was said that 5,000 or more people have gone to Afghanistan and you are the only one to have raised this issue. To your knowledge, and knowing the military structure as you do, are soldiers free to speak out when they have been ordered not to?
4:45 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
Not to speak to whom?
4:45 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
To the media, or to anyone else. If people have seen, or think they have seen, people being tortured but they have been ordered not to talk about it, do you think that they can do so anyway?
4:45 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
I feel that it is difficult for them because of the way in which information travels.
4:45 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
The structure is very rigid. I could write whatever I wanted and send it. They do not have the right to do that. There is a process that limits information when it is sent to military superiors.
4:45 p.m.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Are you the only one to have denounced this ill-treatment or did other diplomats in your circles say that they could not be silent about the situation? Have people other than yourself provided reports?
4:45 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
Among the Canadians?
