Evidence of meeting #15 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was detainees.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Well, you know what? I'd suggest that the minister is there to do a job, and if I were the minister and something were that serious or you were that serious about it, then I would expect you to come and tell me about it. So I have to cast some incredulity on that.
I'll give it to Mr. Abbott.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
The four transferees that you interviewed, were they captured by Canadians?
4:55 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
I don't know.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
4:55 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
Oh, it's very important, yes.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
Okay. Hang on a second. You were telling us that you were interviewing four detainees who had signs of abuse, and you don't even know if they were detainees who had been put into the system by Canadians, much less do you know that they received those signs of abuse through torture, and we're supposed to take you as being credible. That's amazing, sir. That's absolutely amazing.
I wonder if you've arrived at the conclusion you wanted to arrive at. You referred earlier to a pointed tool of torture that was left in the corner under the chair by an interrogator. Now, that could be taken as evidence of torture, or a tool that might have been used for self-abuse, or it could have been put there just for your benefit.
I'm sorry, this is really quite incredible, sir.
4:55 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
On the October one, I should say, I wasn't there for that, so I just heard about this monitoring visit.
The problem we had in Kabul was that the information we were given was so hopeless. We went to the prison and we said: “We're looking for these four people. These are the names and they were all taken in Kandahar. Could you produce these people?” So they produced people who had names that were more or less similar and we tried to figure out if these were the people we were looking for. We settled on four who more or less matched the criteria we'd been given.
Later, we got much better information, a full package, including photographs and the proper names, and when I looked at that, I concluded that of the four we had met, only one was the right person. But this was really a function of the record-keeping. It was very poor--very, very poor.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
But with the greatest respect, sir, it's not a function of the record-keeping; it's a function of the credibility of your testimony. Those three people who you've said were abused in prison as a result of being turned over by Canadians, you have just told us, were not turned over by Canadians. What else can I say?
4:55 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
Yes, you're probably right. Maybe one of them was.
On the monitoring visit, I didn't really want to do the monitoring visit. It's not really my job, you know, but we didn't have anyone else.
But the reporting I had sent on detainees, which went back to June 2006, wasn't based on first-hand interviews. It was based on meeting with organizations that in our judgment were credible, did have access, and had reliable information. So the concerns were drawn from those organizations, of which there were several. I can't really name names in this forum, I'm afraid.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Thank you, Chair.
I have to just follow on a little bit with Mr. Abbott and go back to everything we've heard today. There have been a lot of assumptions, a lot of allegations, and nothing first-hand. It's all second-hand.
You had opportunities to speak to people in authority if you were concerned enough about something, as you expressed, and we're all concerned about those kinds of activities if they're going on. You didn't take the opportunity to do that. All of your information is, at the very best, second-hand. So I really do have to question, as my colleague has done, whether this is really credible testimony in the direction that people want to take this.
You can comment on that or not, but I'm a little bit skeptical.
5 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Rick Casson
Would you like to respond?
That's more a statement than a question.
5 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thanks again to our guests.
I want to come back to the procedure that was in place. You were saying that we didn't have people on the ground to monitor, so when we hear questions about that from the other side.... Your whole point was that we didn't have people to actually monitor. However, you also gave evidence to say that both the British and the Dutch had a very accountable process--within 24 hours, with the British. Is that correct?
5 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
What did you hear from the British and the Dutch? Did you have any communication with them about the behaviour, about what was happening in the prisons about torture? Did they reference torture to you?
5 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
Yes. If I can generalize it, I met regularly with our NATO allies, a number of countries, and we discussed those kinds of issues, and I got information from them as well.
5 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
So they referenced their concerns about handing over detainees and what would happen to them when they were handed over?
5 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
Yes, that's correct.
5 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
When we look at the process that was put in place, one of the concerns was to monitor prisoners after they were released. Was that a concern you had during the time you were there? In other words, when prisoners were sent out, were there any monitoring processes in terms of where they went?
November 18th, 2009 / 5 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
When they were handed over, or after they were released?
5 p.m.
First Secretary, Embassy of Canada to the United States of America
No. We didn't even know--usually--what had happened to them, whether they were in the prison or had been released. We didn't follow up with them at all once we handed them over, so there was no information at all on that.
5 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
You said in your testimony that there were concerns around a number of things, referencing torture in various manners. In fact, in one of the documents you said that when you interviewed someone you asked how they were treated. You said that when you asked about one person's treatment, he had said that he was hit on the feet with a big wire and forced to stand for days, and he had marks on his back and ankles, etc. You noted that there was a red mark on the back of his ankle. It basically said that's how NDS interrogated him.
Was this a typical way of treating prisoners?