Afghanistan Committee on Nov. 25th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

They aren't exactly the same.

It was just pointed out by the clerk, for clarification, that Mr. Dewar's motion indicates that the committee “requests the following documents prior to the appearance of Mr. David Mulroney”. It does not say the committee “must have in its possession”; it just asks that they be requested before Mr. Mulroney comes.

Mr. Rae.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

I just want to make two things clear to my colleagues.

First, a lot has been said about wanting to stop or block witnesses. Nothing would be further from our intentions or our interests as a party. We want to hear from everybody. But I hope that members of the committee would agree with me that it's a little odd for us to be hearing witnesses who have access to documents to which we do not have access. And we have had the absurd situation today where generals were referring to Mr. Colvin's memos, Mr. Colvin referred to his memos, and the only people who are completely in the dark with respect to what is in those memos are the people who are sitting around this table. You cannot have a serious determination of facts unless you can get access to the information.

So we'll be using every opportunity we can, whether it's in the House or whether it's here, to get access to the information. As a chairman, I hope you'll recognize that we've always tried to move along, to get to the business of the day, to get to the business of the committee, to hear from witnesses, and not use the committee as an opportunity to block any activity. We are really very troubled by this problem of having information.

In addition, the additional problem, which I raised today in the House, is the problem of the fact that Mr. Colvin has now received a legal opinion that is completely contrary to the legal option this committee has received with respect to the extent of parliamentary privilege when it comes to providing information to the House.

I'm not giving formal notice of anything, but I'm going to tell you that we have to get to the bottom of this. This committee has to be able to get to the bottom of things, and right now we're in a position where we simply can't get access to the memoranda. We'll see what happens with the motions that have been passed with respect to our request for information and to what extent the government indicates that they're going to be willing to give them to us.

Frankly, we have a problem. We will never refuse to hear a witness, especially on matters as important as those relating to Mr. Mulroney's role on this issue. We are absolutely ready to hear all witnesses. However, we have a problem in that we cannot see the documents. We will continue to demand the documents that we need and I hope we will be able to find the solution which has so far escaped us.

We have been in a rather strange position during the past two days. We have just heard the generals and, last week, Mr. Colvin referred to all kinds of documents and memos. However, none has been provided to the committee. We only have those documents that are public. Therefore, we are unable to put really valid questions to the witnesses. No judge would ever accept to hold such an inquiry if he did not have access to the basic information. That is the problem we are facing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you, Mr. Rae.

Madam Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

With all due respect to the member opposite, prior to his arrival on the Hill, when the Liberals were the governing party, on many occasions the defence committee requested documents, and one time we finally did get them after several months, and I believe they attributed three months of delay towards just translation, which is why I presume Mr. Bachand offered to receive the information in the original language that it was tabled in.

When we did receive that Chicoutimi report several months later, it was thoroughly redacted. So I can't accept the allegation that this government is willingly holding back any memos or any other documentation, that they have to be scrutinized for the purpose of national security.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you. A number of us were on the committee at that time.

Mr. Wilfert is next, and then Mr. Bachand.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Today we heard very direct and very sincere testimony from three generals. We heard very direct and very sincere testimony from a career civil servant. One of the generals, General Gauthier, indicated very clearly that he hopes we get these documents sooner than later.

I have to tell you, after 12 and a half years in this place, I find it reprehensible that we're asked to do our work to seek the truth—wherever that is and wherever that goes—yet obviously some witnesses have access to the documentation. I assume that nobody around this table has seen the documentation. But the point clearly is that we're presumably going to hear Mr. Mulroney tomorrow, again without the documentation that was referred to.

In the jamming I see by the government, we have a witness coming tomorrow to an unscheduled meeting that we're now rescheduling, which I find quite bizarre. We have a situation today where people are referring to documents that we really cannot validate one way or the other. Both the witnesses today and the witness last week were very sincere and direct when you read the testimony. The truth must be somewhere in the middle--or one of them is obviously not telling the truth. If we're really sincere around the table--politics aside--and are all seeking the same end, which is to get to the bottom of the situation, we need these documents.

I trust that the government will be as forthcoming as it can, notwithstanding any comments we've already heard.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Bachand is next, and then Mr. Dewar.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

There is another basic issue that has not been resolved. When General Watkin appeared before the committee, he explained that his perspective on this matter was of a legal nature. I challenged him on this and said that my perspective was of a parliamentary nature.

Parliamentary committees possess specific rights. I even said that we could interpret laws according to the needs of the committee. And I remember very well, Mr. Chair, that I stated at the end of the meeting that I strongly recommended to the general to go and meet with his client, the Government of Canada, to see if his client shared his perspective or ours. As long as we do not resolve this matter, as long as we have no guarantee of the primacy of Parliament's right over the legal right claimed by Mr. Watkin, the government will not feel compelled to table this type of document. I would like you to speak to the general.

Are we going to hear all the witnesses only to be told at the end that we will never see those documents? We can compel witnesses to appear but can a committee compel a government or anyone to provide documents? That is a very important matter. I think we will have to look at that. Otherwise, we risk having to hear witnesses without seeing certain documents. We would have a hand tied in our back.

I also want to react to Mrs. Gallant's statement. We have always requested that documents be provided in both official languages and our position has not changed. When we did our study on submarines, for example, we were frequently told that it would take more time because of documents having to be translated.

I am sure you will understand that this is a matter of principle for us and that we will always want to have documents in French. It is not true that it would be a huge task. As a matter of fact, whenever we ask for a translation, we are always told that it will be a huge task. We are told that the committee will be unable to do its work because we will have to wait for the translated documents. However, when it is urgent, the government always finds a solution. Today, I believe that the situation is urgent. The government will have to find a way to provide us with the documents in both official languages and we will have to get a definite statement on the primacy of Parliament's rights over the legal right claimed by the government's representative during our first meeting. I would like you to follow-up with General Watkin. I want to know his answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Mr. Bachand, to that end, item number 4 in the report, which we just adopted today, was your intervention on that. That instructs that it happen, and it will happen.

Go ahead, Mr. Dewar.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, the first motion we passed was very explicit: that we want the documents prior to Mr. Mulroney coming to this committee. I'm just stating that as a fact.

I have to tell you there's a frustration for me, and I'm sure it's shared by members on this side. The idea in our system is that parliamentary committees are able to conduct business without interference from executives. What it feels like right now is that there's interference from the executives.

It's very easy to say, Mr. Mulroney is here; let him speak. Well, why is it, Mr. Chairman, that the government didn't have Mr. Mulroney on the list of witnesses while we were studying this motion? Why is it, Mr. Chairman, that when we were looking at this motion, the government didn't even want to study it? Why is it that when the MPCC was trying to do its work--and we've heard their version--the documents weren't forthcoming, and people weren't able to testify?

This committee should be independent. I'll tell you right now that it doesn't feel that way. I think that for a committee of Parliament--not a committee of the executive branch--this is a very important tenet. It's a very important parliamentary principle. I want to know, as a citizen, that my committee is independent from the executive branch and that when a committee asks for something, we will get it and not get excuses.

Put this in an American context. If this were an American committee and a chair was asked to get documents from government--I'm not saying this about you, Mr. Chairman; I'm just giving an example--it would be done immediately. I'm getting the sense from government that they're not ready to do that. I want to know why not, and I want to establish the fact that we want Mr. Mulroney here, but by golly, we also want the documents here, and that's our right.

I'll stop there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Mr. Dewar, I think the motions passed today, and the one in the fifth report, will do just that.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I know that you will.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

We were going to get Mr. Mulroney here.

However, and this is nitpicking, but the first line of your motion indicates that the documents be requested.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Yes, they will be, by a committee of Parliament independent from the executive. You're darn right.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

That's exactly what's going to happen.

Okay, we're going to have the bells here pretty quickly, so go ahead, Mr. Hawn.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Really quickly, Mr. Chair, I sense the frustration, and it's understandable. We will be making the effort to provide those documents. We will not violate the law, and we will not violate national security. It's as simple as that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Good, thank you.

We have a request for clarification. Go ahead, Ms. Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Just for clarification, there's been a sidebar discussion going on with the clerk here. My understanding from what I've just been advised is that by virtue of our passing this motion, the documents will come to this committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

That's what the motion indicated.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

The issue is the form in which they come.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

That's our understanding.

We'll have Mr. Del Mastro.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to make a statement. I was kind of disturbed by something Mr. Wilfert said with respect to truth. I think today this committee was privileged to hear from three Canadian heroes who lead Canadian Forces, who are all heroes and serve our country with honour and distinction. I think we should always underline that. We should always appreciate it. We should always appreciate those who protect our freedom, and if there's a question of truth, I'm siding with them each and every day, because they stand for me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

We'll have Mr. Abbott and Mr. Rae, and then we're done.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

I'll pass.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Mr. Abbott passes. Mr. Rae passes.

We'll see you tomorrow.

The meeting is adjourned.