Afghanistan Committee on Nov. 26th, 2009

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Mulroney, you indicated you briefed Mr. MacKay. When you were at the PCO, did you ever brief the Prime Minister himself?

[His Excellency David Mulroney]

We had briefings on Afghanistan, but not to my recollection on the subject of detainees in 2006.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

But you were at PCO later on, as the head of whole of Afghanistan. During that period, did you ever brief him on the detainee issue?

[His Excellency David Mulroney]

We would provide regular updates to the Prime Minister on conditions across the board in Afghanistan, including the number of visits we were conducting--

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Including the detainee issue?

[His Excellency David Mulroney]

Including the detainee issue.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

So you would say that when you were working with Minister MacKay, he was regularly briefed on these issues as they arose.

[His Excellency David Mulroney]

Correct.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Then you would also brief the Prime Minister. Can you give us the dates of those briefings, please? There is absolutely no national security issue with that. If you don't have the dates today, I'd like you to send those dates to the committee.

Thank you very much.

I have another question. I want you to look at this document, if it can be passed on. It's approved by Lalani. I can't tell the date, but if you go to page 3 of this document.... You were just testifying how NDS knew that you were visiting more often and they would be careful. Here, in this memo, they said:

The NDS seemed to do their best to identify “our” detainees, but in the result, we only have reasonable confidence that...of the...detainees we interviewed were in fact those detained by Canadian forces.

So you have the best evidence. NDS, under some pressure, knew that Canadians were coming, and would give them reliable information.

If you go to page 5 of that, it says, about five or six lines down from the top:

He said they also shocked him with electricity. He showed us a number of scars on his legs, which he said were caused by the beating.

Then he said it was a “very dangerous place”, and he still had pain in his hands and fingers, and he said he was also blindfolded.

Can you tell me with any real degree of certainty that this was not a Canadian detainee tortured in 2007? Lalani was there in 2007, after the spring of 2007.

[His Excellency David Mulroney]

First of all, this predates the arrangement. So what we did when we heard about these allegations--

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I don't know the date, sir. Do you know the date?

[His Excellency David Mulroney]

I remember the visit to Sederat prison in Kabul, and I believe it was before the arrangement. I can remember the visits that we conducted.

In any event, we would have reported these allegations to the appropriate Afghan authorities for follow-up. But with the arrangement that was signed in May, we began to develop a database where we could track....The problem we had with detainees was that there are many people with the same name in Afghanistan. The record-keeping was poor, and we improved that.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

No, I understand, sir, but can you say with any degree of certainty that this was not a Canadian detainee?

[His Excellency David Mulroney]

We could not identify this detainee, but we reported the allegations to Afghan authorities.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Sir, you haven't answered the question. Can you say definitely that this was not a Canadian detainee we're talking about?

[His Excellency David Mulroney]

I can't say whether he was or wasn't.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Mulroney, Linda Garwood-Filbert, from CSC, accompanied Eric Laporte from your department on many occasions to Afghan prisons and also filed detainee reports. Is that correct?

[His Excellency David Mulroney]

That is correct.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

I'd like to read the following interview that she made in April 2007: “There hasn't been any significant work done with the prisons.” She added that it's too easy for the Canadian and Afghan authorities to forget about prisoners after they're thrown in jail. “It's out of sight, out of mind. We're just as happy that they went to jail.” She said that allegations of torture in Afghan prisons wouldn't surprise her. She said this to CTV, and it was in The Globe and Mail on April 27, 2007.

Mr. Mulroney, can you explain why, unlike Ms. Garwood-Filbert and other officials who were drafting and forwarding these reports, Ottawa—to use her terms—kept the allegations of torture “out of sight, out of mind” and remained naive until November 5, 2007?

[His Excellency David Mulroney]

First of all, we were at that stage in the final stages of preparing our May 3 arrangement with the Afghans. It wasn't out of sight, out of mind. Within about a week or so of that report we were instituting a regular program of monitoring with detailed reporting of what we were doing. I can't explain why she said that, but I do know her to be a capable officer.

I visited an Afghan prison with her. I knew her views, and she was confident in the process we put in place. I have no doubt about that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you, sir.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

I was struck that she said the word “naive” until November 5.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you.

We have to move over to the government, and then back to Mr. Dewar to wrap up.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll just be very quick here.

First of all, I congratulate Mr. Dosanjh. He hasn't lost his Perry Mason courtroom skills.

Now, the people we're talking about are of course self-identified as victims of torture. Is that correct?