Afghanistan Committee on Nov. 26th, 2009

[His Excellency David Mulroney]

We recognized in early 2007 that we needed a more robust arrangement. We needed a stronger arrangement. We put in place an arrangement that gave us unlimited access at any time, that gave the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission and the Red Cross unlimited access at any time. We put in a place a program of training and capacity building, and a diplomatic strategy, that saw us working at every level of the Afghan government if we had any concerns about our detainees.

That is, by any standard in NATO, the most robust and best. Our visits are at a higher frequency than any other country in Afghanistan.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you.

Over to the government now, for five minutes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If I have any extra time, I'd like to share it with Mr. Hawn.

Mr. Mulroney, we've heard from Generals Hillier, Gauthier, and Fraser, who've all confirmed that there was nothing in Mr. Colvin's memos prior to the spring of 2007 that would represent a substantial and credible risk of torture.

Mr. Colvin alleges that you were a recipient of these e-mails. Do you share in the generals' assessment?

[His Excellency David Mulroney]

I do.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Mulroney, we heard from the generals yesterday that they looked at a totality of evidence from various sources when making decisions regarding Taliban prisoner transfers and policy. Did DFAIT and Joint Task Force Afghanistan have a similar process in place?

[His Excellency David Mulroney]

That was what we put in place in the spring of 2007. Joint Task Force Afghanistan was at the sharp end of things, actually capturing the detainees, but what we needed in order to really put this in place was much more participation from the civilian agencies, starting with DFAIT but including Correctional Service and the RCMP.

We had to put all of that in place, and we did. We went from having a handful of people in Kandahar in 2006 to more than 80 now. Doing that has enabled us to have the best system for detainee monitoring of any country in southern Afghanistan.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Yesterday General Gauthier stated that the first time he heard of torture allegations was when the Globe and Mail published reports in April of 2007, and then the first field report in June citing credible allegations of torture. Is that your recollection as well?

[His Excellency David Mulroney]

Those were the first allegations of torture against Canadian-transferred detainees.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Okay.

There has been considerable discussion about the numerous reports that were circulating about the potential for torture in Afghan prisons. Had you seen these reports, and if so, what did you see as Canada's obligations with respect to improving these prisons--beyond anything you've already told us today?

[His Excellency David Mulroney]

Well, it was as we suggested; we felt that with the resources we could bring to bear, with the combination of efforts by the Canadian Forces, DFAIT, Correctional Service, RCMP, connecting with our embassy in Kabul, and with lots of money spent on training, we could create, and have created, better conditions for detainees of all kinds, but particularly Canadian-transferred detainees, in the NDS facility and in other prisons in Afghanistan.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

If government officials from Canada see first-hand evidence of torture, what is the chain of command they should follow in order to make sure the right people are informed?

[His Excellency David Mulroney]

That was further clarified, in that there's a process that has them advising the Red Cross, the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, and the Government of Afghanistan. The reports then go back to Canada, where they go to the key departments. When I was in Foreign Affairs, I would also provide a copy of any such report to the minister.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

The 2005 transfer agreement does not specifically include full and unrestricted access to monitor. Is that to suggest that absolutely no monitoring whatsoever was being done between December 2005 and May 2007?

[His Excellency David Mulroney]

There were visits into Afghan prisons and there were interviews with prisoners, but there was no monitoring of specifically Canadian-transferred prisoners. That was a deficiency that we corrected.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Hawn.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you.

I want to clear up one point that came up earlier and I forgot to address it. When we talk about Operation Medusa, which is really when we started taking a lot of prisoners, it was not in the winter and summer of 2006--

[His Excellency David Mulroney]

No, it was late summer--

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

--it was in the second half of 2006, which was well into the time when we were starting to do things.

I want to talk a little bit about the original transfer agreement that was entered into in 2005. I know you weren't there, but that was entered into on behalf of--

[His Excellency David Mulroney]

The Government of Canada.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

--the Government of Canada by Liberal Ministers Pettigrew and Graham and by Prime Minister Martin. That was the Government of Canada at the time.

[His Excellency David Mulroney]

It was the Government of Canada at the time.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you.

The supplemental agreement, and obviously we've already talked about that, greatly improved the situation and so on, with paragraph 10 of that agreement saying that investigation, prosecution, and correction are the responsibility of the Government of Afghanistan. Can you comment on your working relationship with the Government of Afghanistan with respect to that agreement?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Once again, a short response, please.

[His Excellency David Mulroney]

That was a tremendously important part of everything we did, to make sure that it was the Government of Afghanistan living up to its commitments. Part of that involved regular access to the NDS, the National Directorate of Security, at all levels, including the leader, training for them, training for other Afghan prison officials, regular interaction with the director and senior managers of the prison.

When we had our first credible allegation of mistreatment in November, we were in the prison 22 times in the space of two months, so we knew virtually every guard, everybody who conducted interviews in that prison. We did training. We followed up. They knew that Canada was present and would be present on a regular basis following up on our transfer of detainees, and I'm very proud of the system that was put in place.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you.

Over to the official opposition, then back to the government.