Evidence of meeting #17 for Special Committee on the Canadian Mission in Afghanistan in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was detainees.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Excellency David Mulroney  Ambassador of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

3:55 p.m.

Ambassador of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

His Excellency David Mulroney

No, we did not anticipate the ferocity of the insurgency that we faced when we got there.

The death of Glyn Berry in January was a tragedy to all of us, but it also set back our efforts to deploy more civilians for many months as we looked at duty-of-care issues and how to deploy them safely.

By the summer of 2006, the Canadian Forces were facing the Taliban massed in the hundreds, and were fighting in some of the biggest engagements since Korea. So it was a very, very chaotic year. It was a terrible year. At the same time, DFAIT and DND were working out the delineation of responsibilities on detainees. DFAIT was engaging with the relevant international organizations. Correctional Service Canada had started to do its first visits into Afghan prisons to determine what they needed by way of additional capacity.

Should we have moved even faster in that period? Should we have put in place in 2006 the agreement we had in 2007? Afghanistan was an evolving theatre of war, and we realized in early 2007 that we needed to make changes. I arrived in late February, and by early May we had a new arrangement in place.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rick Casson

I'm sorry, time's up. We're having to keep to a close schedule so everybody gets an opportunity here. I apologize for that.

Mr. Bachand, seven minutes.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Mr. Mulroney.

November 26th, 2009 / 3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Could you please share the time allotted to you?

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Yes, I will be sharing my time with Ms. Lalonde.

Mr. Mulroney, I have two documents here. One was disclosed yesterday by the CBC network and the other is an excerpt from the Attaran vs Canada (Foreign Affairs) case. I will begin with the document reported on by CBC. I would like you to note my two questions and then answer afterward.

First, the document revealed by CBC yesterday is signed by Richard Colvin and Margaret Bloodworth, who I am sure you know. Do you know these two people?

3:55 p.m.

Ambassador of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

His Excellency David Mulroney

I think it might have been signed by Richard Colvin and Catherine Bloodworth.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

It's Mrs. Bloodworth.

4 p.m.

Ambassador of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

His Excellency David Mulroney

No. Margaret Bloodworth is Catherine Bloodworth's mother. Margaret Bloodworth was the national security advisor; Catherine Bloodworth was an officer of the embassy in Kabul.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

They say here “Colvin” and “Bloodworth”, and you say it's Cathy.

4 p.m.

Ambassador of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

His Excellency David Mulroney

It's the daughter of Margaret. It's Catherine Bloodworth.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Did Ms. Bloodworth report to you?

4 p.m.

Ambassador of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

His Excellency David Mulroney

When is this document dated?

4 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

It is dated 2006.

4 p.m.

Ambassador of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

His Excellency David Mulroney

At that time I was not responsible for Afghanistan. I was in PCO as foreign and defence policy advisor.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

This document was cc'ed to David Mulroney. Were you with PCO at that time?

4 p.m.

Ambassador of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

4 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

All the individuals and institutions whose names appear on this document: Ms. Swords, Mr. Laporte, CEFCOM, National Defence Headquarters, Sinclair, you know them all.

In this document, acts of torture are mentioned on several occasions. I will quote certain passages that I will have to interpret, because many of them are redacted. This is what the document says:

Of the...detainees we interviewed...said...had been whipped with cables, shocked with electricity and/or otherwise “hurt” while in NDS custody in Kandahar. This period of alleged abuse lasted from between....

They don't say here.

The document goes on like this and does contain complaints from prisoners, which were pointed out to you by Mr. Colvin and Ms. Bloodworth in a cc.

That's not all. It continues:

He said that, while being detained...he came and spoke with him once. He, and others, told the...that three fellow detainees had had their “fingers cut and burned with a lighter” while in NDS detention. ... When we asked about his own treatment...he said that he was hit on his feet with a cable or “big wire” and forced to stand for two days, but “that's all”.

Did you obtain a copy of the document that I am reading to you, as a cc, approved by Ambassador Lalani?

4 p.m.

Ambassador of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

His Excellency David Mulroney

That document.... I believe that in 2006 Arif Lalani was not our ambassador; it would have been David Sproule. But I would have to see the document to see who approved it at the bottom.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

It says here, “Approved: Lalani”.

4 p.m.

Ambassador of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

4 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Yes.

4 p.m.

Ambassador of Canada to the People's Republic of China, Embassy of Canada to the People's Republic of China

4 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

I'm sorry. The date is even slashed.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

We don't know what the date is.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

We don't know what the date is, but your name is on it, and you had a copy of this.

Have you seen this report?