Afghanistan Committee on Dec. 9th, 2009

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

The NDP concurs with the motion, by the way.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, is the government saying they don't want to continue up until five minutes to the vote, which is just down the hall?

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Why did you call a vote?

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I didn't call the vote.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

The meeting is suspended.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

It's a government motion, isn't it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

We'll call the meeting back to order.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to note that the reason we did not get to hear from the ministers in a timely fashion was that the NDP put forward a concurrence motion, which is a procedural issue. They created this delay. At the vote itself, the delay was caused in no small part by the NDP, who were taking their own sweet time to stand up and take—

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Who called the vote, Mr. Abbott?

Can we get on with this, Mr. Chair?

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Now Mr. Dewar says that he would like to get on with this.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

You called the vote, Mr. Abbott.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Let's get on with the business. We have a minister here. He was closing in on the end of his presentation.

Go ahead, Mr. MacKay.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

I was saying that it was the government's responsibility and obligation to assure ourselves that we are not transferring detainees, Taliban prisoners, to any location in which there is a substantial risk of abuse. To that end, we improved access. We've had to date over 180 visits to Afghan detention centres. We have embarked on mentoring of officials, both police officers and those working in detention centres. We have invested literally millions in the prison system and the prisons themselves. We've also improved lines of communication with international bodies like the Red Cross.

When I speak of responsibility, I'm speaking in the inclusive whole-of-government sense. While the commander of Joint Task Force Afghanistan holds the final decision on transfers, his decision is informed by a comprehensive understanding of the circumstances, including information based on the monitoring and the diplomatic analysis of the Department of Foreign Affairs. Neither the Canadian Forces nor the commander make decisions in the abstract.

Mr. Chair, I want to use the remainder of my remarks to briefly address two issues that have been raised by members of this committee.

First, I know that there have been concerns with the disclosure of information to the committee as you examine the issue of detainee transfers.

But I cannot emphasize enough that the government has a critical obligation to ensure that the lives of Canadians—civilians and military—are not put at additional risk by the potential release of information that may be of an operational security nature. We must also protect the relationships with our partners in Afghanistan who are so crucial in helping us conduct our mission.

Mr. Chair, to avoid such a situation that would endanger lives, government officials, lawyers, trained officials take a careful review of any documentation that is to be disclosed. Experts from various departments involved have vetted all documents and identified any sensitive information that could lead to danger for soldiers and personnel deployed. This is a well-established procedure within the Government of Canada, and it is free from political interference. I should add that it has also been the subject of review by the Federal Court.

Colleagues, the other issue I want to address before closing is the allegation that I have savaged a diplomat in public. This is, of course, false and completely untrue. I have not maligned or impugned anyone's character or integrity. I simply pointed out what at least seven other witnesses who testified here did as well, and that is there is insufficient evidence to back up claims that were made. I deliberately qualified my remarks at the time by saying they were not personal. I have not made this personal. I have never used the word “Taliban dupe”, although it was attributed to me dozens of times in various broadcasts and publications. This would explain perhaps why certain diplomats have been of the mistaken belief that I have been attacking an individual, and have responded by attacking me.

Finally, colleagues, the other issue I would like to address is the call by some for a public inquiry to be held on this issue. There are already, by my count, three investigations into the exact subject matter, either under way or about to be completed. First, the Canadian Forces convened a board of inquiry to investigate the treatment of individuals detained by the Canadian Forces in April of 2006. The board concluded that the Canadian Forces, without exception, treated prisoners professionally and humanely, and it went on to say, Mr. Chair, that all their actions while dealing with prisoners complied with directives in place at the time of capture and were consistently above reproach.

Second, the Military Police Complaints Commission is currently investigating detainee transfers. The chair, independent of the government, decided to suspend the work of the commission and seek leave to appeal to the Federal Court for a decision affirming its mandate. Last week, however, the Federal Court of Appeal dismissed the application for leave, awarding costs against the MPCC, confirming that the limited nature and scope of the mandate of the commission had to be followed. With the appeal denied, Mr. Chair, I would suggest that we will soon see the commission back underway with their investigation into the matter.

There is, of course, the work of this committee. I welcome your decision and your deliberations on this matter. The government is fully supporting the work of this committee, and as you can see, you have three ministers before you today, prepared to answer questions. In addition, you have heard from eleven witnesses, including all of the senior officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs and the military, most in close proximity to the time in question in the mission in Afghanistan. I can assure you, Chair, that our government will continue to fully cooperate with the committee on this issue.

Finally, let me conclude, colleagues, by recalling the way in which the situation has changed on the ground and the adjustments that we made and that our international partners are continuing to make to ensure we are doing the right things in terms of building security and promoting development and governance when dealing with the issue of Taliban prisoner transfers.

We have never denied concerns regarding the conditions within Afghan detention facilities. In fact from 2006 onward our government and officials were continuing to improve the system and invest millions of dollars in ensuring that their capacity continued to rise. We are constantly re-evaluating our approach in consultation with our allies, and of course with Afghan authorities.

Mr. Chair, the Canadian Taliban prisoner transfer regime that we have in place now is rigorous and thorough, and as you have heard from a number of witnesses, including Linda Garwood-Filbert of the Correctional Service of Canada, we are continuing in that endeavour. It is consistent with that of our allies and what they are doing, and consistent with what we have tried to achieve as a government, and with the Government of Afghanistan, in terms of respecting their sovereignty and of course developing their capacity to govern themselves and elevate their human rights.

Our Canadian team in Afghanistan is doing extraordinary work in a difficult and dangerous and sometimes horrific mission. We all know the costs that our soldiers have paid and their families have paid on this mission, Mr. Chair. They continue to perform exceptionally, and in my view are the epitome of grace under pressure.

Mr. Chair and colleagues, the Government of Canada takes its responsibilities in all aspects of this mission extremely seriously. Let there be no mistake: the work that has been done by the Canadian Forces has been done with dignity and with integrity, and I am proud in every way to associate myself with their actions.

Colleagues, I look forward to your questions. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you, Minister MacKay.

Minister Cannon.

[Lawrence Cannon, Conservative, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

When I became Minister of Foreign Affairs on October 30^th, 2008, senior officials in the department told me of a series of issues related to my portfolio. This included bilateral relations with the international community, particularly with the United States; multilateral issues such as the economic crisis, disarmament, human rights and, in particular, terrorism; international forums such as the Commonwealth, the Francophonie, NATO, the United Nations and the G8; the Arctic; fragile states; management of consular issues; and of course our priority, the Canadian mission in Afghanistan including the situation concerning prisoners.

Since that time, I have been regularly informed on the various issues, as I should be.

At your invitation, I will give a summary of our policy and how it applies to the transfer to Afghan authorities of prisoners captured during military operations. I will gladly answer your questions at the end.

First, I want to remind the committee that Canada is in Afghanistan to help the Afghans rebuild their country and to make it a stable, democratic and autonomous society. We are there along with over 60 other states and international organizations, at the request of the Afghan government in a mission headed by NATO, pursuant to a UN mandate.

Canada's objective is to promote six specific priorities in keeping with the Afghanistan Compact, a five-year agreement that was ratified by the international community and the Afghanistan government in early 2006.

As you know, the Canadian government publishes quarterly reports on our engagement in Afghanistan. The sixth of these quarterly reports will be released this week, and I invite members and all Canadians to consult these documents. They will see that considerable progress has been achieved in a number of key areas, thanks to the dedication, courage, and professionalism of our soldiers, diplomats, and public servants.

In addressing the issue of the transfer of prisoners by Canada to Afghan authorities, I feel that I must begin by reminding you of the nature of the work being done by our Canadian civilian and military representatives who are deployed in Afghanistan. These individuals work day after day in a country that is dealing with a very dangerous armed insurrection and pursuing the goals of the Canadian mission with professionalism and a dedication that we should all be extremely proud of.

As I said before the House of Commons last week, “they are the glory of their generation, as were the heroes of Vimy, Dieppe and so many other theatres of war where Canadians fought to defend our values and our freedoms. These men and women are also putting their lives in danger to secure a better future for a country that is trying to ward off the threat of totalitarianism, sectarianism and extremism”.

I would like to remind those who are fixated on the well-being of individuals who are suspected of being our enemies in this conflict that our men and women often put their own lives at risk in trying to treat these people as fairly and humanely as possible.

I would invite members to ponder again what Mr. David Mulroney told this committee:

We had no doubt that the detainees captured by the Canadian Forces posed a real threat to Afghans, and more than that, in some cases had Canadian blood on their hands.

With regard specifically to the transfer of Taliban prisoners, it's important to remember that they were first transferred to the Afghan authorities under an agreement reached between the Canadian and Afghan governments in December 2005.

As you all know, over two and a half years ago, we reached a supplementary arrangement with Afghanistan to replace that inadequate agreement on the transfer of prisoners that we had inherited from the previous government.

Since the beginning of our commitment, Canada has always insisted to the Afghan authorities on the need to treat prisoners according to international law. I myself raised the issue of the importance of respecting human rights during my meetings with President Karzaï and with the Afghan Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Spanta.

Can we, however, assume responsibility for everything that happens in Afghan prisons, between Afghans? Obviously not.

The mission that we accepted—our government and the government that preceded us—is not full and permanent oversight of the judicial and prison systems in Afghanistan. I would state however that although there had been nothing before, our government is now investing in development programs in terms of policing, and the legal and correctional systems, in order to improve the Afghan government's capacity in those areas.

The supplemental arrangement that our government put in place has allowed the implementation of an oversight and follow-up mechanism that ensures protection of the rights of prisoners transferred by Canada and it is considered a model to follow.

This arrangement states that Canadian representatives will have unrestricted access to those prisoners, as my colleague, the Minister of National Defence, Mr. MacKay, mentioned.

This has enabled us to conduct nearly 200 visits, since the implementation of our new agreement, to verify that prisoners who had been transferred were treated in accordance with our values and principles and international law.

If, during those visits, Canadian officials hear of allegations of mistreatment, Canada immediately alerts the International Committee of the Red Cross and the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission, in keeping with their mandate, and raises the issue with highest Afghan authorities to ensure a due diligence investigation.

Let us remember what Linda Garwood-Filbert, a 28-year veteran of Corrections Canada, who conducted nearly 50 visits, many of them unannounced, to Afghan prisons, said: "I personally never saw any signs of physical abuse or torture."

Have allegations of torture been made? Of course, and we should not be surprised by this, if we read any al-Qaeda manual, and particularly the one that was discovered by British police in a raid of an al-Qaeda member's home and which was produced earlier this year at a terrorist bombing trial in New York. In chapter 18 of the document, the first two recommendations given to al-Qaeda prisoners are, and I'm quoting from the text, (1) “At the beginning of the trial, once more the brothers must insist on proving that torture was inflicted on them by State Security (investigators) before the judge”, and (2) “Complain to the court of mistreatment while in prison".

Mr. Chairman, if I were asked to choose between the testimony of a Corrections Canada official and an al-Qaeda tactic, I would pick Corrections Canada ten times out of ten.

Not only do we monitor and follow up with Taliban prisoners we captured because our men and women were posed with an immediate threat, but we've also put in place capacity-building programs to help improve conditions for all prisoners. We are providing training and mentoring to Afghan correctional officers and senior management. Since 2006 we have committed $7.7 million towards correction reform projects in Afghanistan.

During my visit to Afghanistan with Minister Day in March of this year, we saw first-hand Sarposa prison and a training centre for the Afghan National Police and we witnessed concrete achievements. We announced then a contribution of $21 million to strengthen the rule of law with a focus on policing.

In conclusion, Mr. Chairman and colleagues, to those who strive mightily to find fault with the actions of the men and women who are defending freedom, justice, and security in the most dangerous place in the world, I would like to say, nobody could do better. I remind this committee that all they hope for in return is the encouragement and respect of their fellow Canadians.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you all.

We had indicated at the beginning of the meeting, without knowing how long the bells were going to take, that we were going to stop this portion of the meeting at 5 o'clock to deal with some committee business from 5 to 5:15. There will be bells at 5:15 again, so we only have 20 minutes left to do all of what we need to do. I want you to keep that in mind, but I'm going to have Mr. Dosanjh open the questioning, because we have four minutes to go before 5 o'clock.

Mr. Dosanjh, the floor is yours.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you.

First of all, it is not the actions of our men and women on the ground that are in question, it's the actions of this government or their omissions that are in question.

Secondly, when the minister says he will pick a particular testimony, perhaps he could pick the statement of General Natynczyk today and the braided electrical wire that was found when the transfers were stopped. I just want to bring ourselves to ground here rather than engaging in rhetoric.

The question I have is to the Minister of Defence. Whether it's the UN, the U.S. State Department, our own human rights Canada reports, Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, we have a compelling body of evidence that there has been a substantial risk of torture when we transfer detainees to Afghan jails. Sir, you have been saying that there is not a scintilla of evidence of detainee torture. You've said that repeatedly and the Prime Minister in fact also said that.

I have a question for you in terms of our international obligations. This is not about people on the ground, not the military, not the men and women. It is about civilian responsibility. Civilian leadership has a responsibility. When you knew there was a compelling body of evidence and you were in denial, you continued to allow the transfer of Canadian detainees to Afghan authorities at substantial risk of torture.

Sir, I think you stand indicted in the public domain and in the court of public opinion of turning a blind eye, of being wilfully blind. Ignorance of facts is no defence. You don't need actual knowledge of torture; you need the circumstantial evidence in the international court. So I ask you, sir, to step down and relieve yourself of your responsibility, and answer the question whether or not you put our men and women at risk by allowing the transfers to continue at potential risk of torture?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Mr. Minister.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let me begin by saying that we, the government, have never denied that there were concerns regarding the circumstances of prisons and prisoners in Afghanistan. Those were general concerns that we shared with other countries, based on, of course, information that we received from a number of sources, including some of those that Mr. Dosanjh has listed—that is, international bodies, other countries, certainly our men and women in the field, from the Department of Foreign Affairs, and our military personnel. So from our initial transfer arrangement, we went about receiving that information, making decisions about how we would improve upon the failings that were there, left and inherited by our government.

We had a transfer arrangement that was inadequate, clearly, because it didn't allow for sufficient access—that is, Canadian officials being able to go into prisons to follow up. So as Minister of National Defence.... As other ministers have previously stated, we acted. We acted upon the advice and the information that was being received from a number of sources, including our own, and we were also, as has been noted, reporting. The Department of Foreign Affairs reports regularly with annual human rights reports. So we were aware, painfully aware, of the fact that conditions in Afghan detention facilities needed to be improved, generally, broadly.

On this subject matter of specific allegations—and I know my honourable friend wants to blur this issue and try to suggest somehow that I've denied that there were concerns over the general conditions within prisons—when the specific allegations arose concerning detainees for whom we were responsible, we acted. There were decisions made by commanders in the field to stop transfers.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Sir, you don't need specific allegations, you need circumstantial evidence.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Mr. Dosanjh—

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

There's abundant circumstantial evidence. Why did you not act, sir? Where is the law that you point to that you require specific allegations to act on in the international arena?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

I'm going to have to intervene, Mr. Dosanjh. From now on, all questions will have to be put to the chair and I will recognize the speaker. And I'm asking the people who control the microphones not to turn them on until I have recognized that person.

We have come to the point in the day where we said we were going to suspend this part of this meeting and move on to committee business. I'm going to leave what we do in the hands of the committee. Do we want to continue in this vein for the next 15 minutes?

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Yes.