Afghanistan Committee on May 26th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you.

We're going now to Mr. Paul Dewar, with the New Democratic Party. He will be asking questions for the next seven minutes.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our guests. Doctor, it's good to speak with you. I would like to thank you for the work you've been doing and letting us know the status of women in Afghanistan, which is so very important.

For my first question, I want to go back to the history of the review of the Shia law. In your comments you mentioned that this is something that has been in the works for a while but you were surprised when it came to Parliament and then to the president's desk to be signed. You mentioned that you had been in touch with members of the international community, and I know you were quoted in the press as saying that the international community had failed to support women in terms of this law. At the time the review was being done and the legislation was going through, were you in touch with any Canadians on the ground to let them know that this law was being planned? And if you had been in touch with Canadians, what was the response?

[Dr. Soraya Sobhrang]

I apologize that we lost this moment and we didn't have any meetings with Canadians, only UNAMA and also the European Union.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you for that clarification.

I noted that you did write a report. You've written many reports. One is called “Women's Situation in Afghanistan in 2008”. In that report, your organization states that even though there has been progress in terms of the electoral law to have more women in Parliament, the actual role women play is weak and symbolic, and they have less impact on major decision-making in the country.

Were women involved in the drafting of this law? What role did women have in the drafting and review of this Shia family law?

[Dr. Soraya Sobhrang]

This draft was written only by men. Also, this is Ayatollah Mussini, a student in Mashhad in Iran. After that, he brought this to Afghanistan and through the Justice Ministry it went to Parliament. Never was one woman involved in this process.

Inside Parliament, the first woman to combat this problem was Shinkai Karokhail. And another woman after Shinkai Karokhail was Sabrina Saqib--only these two persons. The first person who really did a lot of work in this process was Shinkai Karokhail. She did a lot, but she could only bring changes to three articles.

Women in Afghanistan and also in Parliament are not independent. There are a number of warlords and others inside Parliament and there are different parties, so these women in Parliament are under pressure. They are afraid, because inside Parliament also, they are given ultimatums. The only woman who wasn't afraid of any ultimatums was Shinkai Karokhail.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

When it comes to the training of the police and the army, but in particular the police, are you aware of any training that is happening, particularly in Kandahar, on women's rights and human rights? In other words, are the Afghan police getting training on the rights of women and on the human rights of Afghans?

[Dr. Soraya Sobhrang]

Yes, this is in our action plan in all our regional offices and also in provincial offices. Every month, maybe two times or one time, they organize workshops and seminars about human rights education. There's very good coordination between the human rights commission, the police, the army, and different positions. We have very good relationships. They always come to the seminars and workshops.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

How many people do you have?

You're doing the training with the police. You're coordinating that with the police.

[Dr. Soraya Sobhrang]

Yes.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Do you have enough people to do that?

[Dr. Soraya Sobhrang]

Yes.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

You don't need more resources for that particular job?

[Dr. Soraya Sobhrang]

You know, I think every organization needs this, because we have to do a lot. Every day we are getting new responsibilities. For the work, if you're working 24 hours, this is not enough. So we always need resources. Also, we need new experience. We need advisors. They bring knowledge and new experience to us on skill-building and capacity-building. We need this everywhere in Afghanistan and in our organization also.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I think it would be helpful for our committee if you were able to send us a written note, an e-mail, about what resources you need help with the most, because we are looking at how we can help in Afghanistan.

I'll just close by thanking you. If you want to follow up with the committee by providing us with some ideas, we can help more with the work you're doing.

Again, thank you for being here today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

That's very good. Thank you.

We have time to get into the second round--for a couple of spots, anyway--before we have to go.

We'll start with Mr. Hawn, on the government side, for five minutes.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you, Doctor, for being here. We really appreciate your efforts today and what you're doing.

Religion plays a very important role in Afghan society, and relations and understanding among religious leaders would probably help the situation. What efforts are you putting towards furthering understanding among religious leaders of different sects and so on? What strategies are you using there, and is there a way we can help with that?

[Dr. Soraya Sobhrang]

You know, in Afghanistan, before the 30 years of war, always they lived together without any problems and had very good coordination. They lived together freely. During the war, it was also, I think, a new thing in Afghanistan. The population didn't have any problem. Now also they don't have a problem. Who has a problem? It is the people in high positions in government, in some parties, who are in power. Society and the population don't have any problems.

For example, if you're going to a village and are talking with the women and the men, they have very good relationships. They don't know about these problems. This is also between Shia and Sunni and others. This is for some leaders, those who are in power, some commanders and those who are in government in very high positions. It is coming from that direction.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you.

From what you said, I would gather there's a level of understanding among average Afghans about human rights and women's rights in Afghanistan, and that if they just left it to the people themselves, they could solve it themselves or they'd be further ahead. Is that a fair statement?

[Dr. Soraya Sobhrang]

Yes. They need some awareness about that. They need awareness and they need capacity-building. They have to know more about national unity. They need to get some awareness of that. I think women are like a centre. For example, during the war in Afghanistan, they played a very good role to bring peace. For peace-building also, a woman's role is very important.

In relation to United Nations resolution 1325, the government in Afghanistan promised that after this war, it would bring the role of gender into the process of security and peace in Afghanistan, but really, after the war in Afghanistan they forgot the women of Afghanistan. When there was a jirga or some regional conference, they absolutely ignored the participation of women in this process, so this is also a big problem.

The international community can also, through our government, bring this idea. Without women's participation, without gender participation, any process for peace and security will not be successful in Afghanistan.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you.

I think we got that message loud and clear. All the women in the room are smiling.

How important are literacy and education to this process, and how do you see the prospects for that in the near and long terms, especially for young women?

[Dr. Soraya Sobhrang]

I explained about that earlier. In the constitution, women and men have the same rights and there is a special positive discrimination for women for education, but every day they are getting ultimatums and the enemy also burns their schools. As well, without security, they now have to stay at home and not attend school. We have a lot of guards within the schools, but with no security, how can they go to the schools? We are really concerned about that.

Maybe next year we will not have any educated women graduating from grade 12, and we are really concerned about that. For example, in some provinces up until now we didn't have guards at school. In high schools, we didn't have them. We only had guards up to the sixth grade, but sixth grade or ninth grade is not education.

If we want women to participate in politics and in the economic life in high positions and making decisions, they need higher education. They need to go to university. In this situation we have no security. They also have economic problems. How can they go to school? How can they go to university?

Today I got a piece of news, but I'm not sure about it. It was from Herat Province. In a sharia faculty women organized in the first class were divided in their teaching--this one is education, another is law in fiqh. But women do not have permission to go to fiqh in the law. This is really discrimination against women. We have to do something about this decision.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you very much.

In the few minutes that we have left, we're going to finish up with the official opposition. Mr. Wilfert will ask you a few questions.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Doctor, for being with us.

One of the six priorities that Canada has in Afghanistan is the advancement of democratic governance, in particular, dealing with public institutions such as the justice institution with the training of judges. One of the mandates that Canadians have in Afghanistan is working closely with women to support equal involvement in these institutions, particularly in their own communities and in society as a whole.

Can you provide to us what you believe is important in the development of this capacity-building in terms of moving the agenda forward? When we hear, for example, that Shia law is drafted by men, that doesn't really give us much hope in suggesting any involvement in terms of us being able to achieve the goals that, in conjunction with your organization, we believe are important.

What tools should we be providing? Or what's your current assessment of the ability to develop that capacity-building with regard to justice and equal treatment for women in Afghanistan?

[Dr. Soraya Sobhrang]

This is a very good idea, which we really need to have. In our justice system, there may be a lot of them who don't believe in women's rights, and they don't know the meaning of gender. Sometimes there is also discrimination and violence against women. For example, if a woman goes to a court and says she wants a divorce, they will ask why. She says because her husband beats her every day and also that he uses psychological violence against her. The court will then say that this is a normal process, that she is a woman, and that she will have to go back. We hear a lot of information like this.

I think this is very important. For example, until now in our supreme court, there are no women there. There are only men. Also, we have judges, but this is not enough. Capacity-building and giving our judges some awareness is very important. Especially for our justice system in Afghanistan, this is very important. Here is my idea: that without women judges and also without women's rights activists inside the justice system.... We can't wait for justice, for democracy, for the same rights for women and men, and also for the implementation of our constitution. This is very important. In every issue, everywhere, women must be present.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you very much. We appreciate you taking the time today to answer our questions. We appreciate your frank and very good answers. It will help us with our deliberations.

We certainly want to wish you all the best as you continue with your struggle for women's rights in Afghanistan. I think it will be interesting to see how you progress over the years. Hopefully, you will be able to make strong progress as time goes on. Thank you very much. Stay safe.