Afghanistan Committee on June 11th, 2009

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Thank you, Minister, for coming.

There are two questions I want to quickly draw upon. One deals with our signature project, and you rightly told Madam Lalonde that you are concerned about the educational aspect of it. The signature project we have here is for education. I see from your report that we co-chair the development board to build up the educational system over there, which is the key element in winning the hearts and minds of the people of Afghanistan and Kabul. Perhaps you can elaborate on that one.

The second question I have is our priority number six, which is seeking political reconciliation. I know our government's position is that it's up to the Afghan people to carry out. But could you perhaps give us some indication of efforts made by the Government of Afghanistan to reach out to the moderate Taliban? We know there are hard-core Taliban whom we will never be able to talk to, but there are some elements in there where there is a reconciliation process going on.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Education is key in any society. We know that. We're very pleased to be co-chairing some of the oversight there. We are putting significant numbers of dollars into that. As I was saying, again with regard to Madame Lalonde's remarks, we're seeing progress, but there is a long way to go. And that really comes down to not a lack of desire for education on the part of the people in Afghanistan, but the threat they are exposed to for wanting to be educated. This is where we have to work closely with the Afghan authorities, of course respecting how they would like to see things progress, but on the security side. It is discouraging to see the number of schools that have to close and then reopen all based on threat. I'll tell you, we're going to see an increase in the number of people being educated, and the levels are going to be rising with the influx now of American troops. There are some 17,000 more as of today, and that will increase, we're told. The ability to provide security has jumped up exponentially. With that, our thought is--and we'll record it in the next quarterly report--that you're going to see a significant bump forward in the number of people being educated. If anything has held us back in terms of numbers, it's largely been on the security side. It's not the lack of will.

Regarding the truth and reconciliation process, again we are doing what we can, respecting the people of Afghanistan and their governments, to assist them in this process. If they make a decision that they're going to have discussions with Taliban at a certain level, it's really tricky trying to define a moderate Taliban and an extreme Taliban. We would hope that the people of Afghanistan are going to be engaging with those who are going to want to set aside violence as a means of advancing their political gains--that's a definition of terrorism--and with people who are going to respect the basic rights of human beings, men and women. People are going to see that attacking innocent civilians, killing children, and killing the elderly is not part of a civilized society and should have no part in that. In that process, our CIDA funding goes to a number of areas. In the areas of their justice department, there is both the administration and the understanding of justice. In different rural areas especially, in different villages, they have their own system of administration and their own system of governance, and we help them to understand how that can be tied into a broader consensus, a broader acceptance of certain basic values. So we want to respect the shuras, but we also give funding to help the people of Afghanistan raise these basic levels of appreciation for human rights.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Dewar, you have ten minutes.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Minister, for being here today.

I just want to start off with a couple of concerns I have regarding reporting. You know that recently it was noted in the press that there was a human rights overview report done by DFAIT. Included in that report were things that aren't in this report. This committee has looked at what could be shared with the committee. We had a whole committee meeting about the sharing of information, confidentiality, sensitive documents, etc., but it seems to me that a DFAIT human rights report would be something that should be reflected here. It's important information, and I just want to cite a couple of things.

First of all, there is the fact--if you've read it, and I'm wondering why perhaps it isn't in here--that according to the report there's a major problem in trafficking of children, and particularly of boys, for purposes of sexual exploitation or forced labour. Fifty-seven percent of Afghan marriages involve girls under the legal age of 16. My take on it is--and you can see here--that women are being used as a form of currency to pay off debts. I know this isn't new in terms of cultural facets here, but it is happening.

Then finally there is the question of schools. Respectfully, Minister, we've heard the government say at different times that we're there, we're building schools, and kids are going to school, and girls are going to school when they haven't before, and we all want that, certainly. The report from DFAIT says that half of school-aged children don't attend, that we've had schools that were built but in fact no one's in them. Five hundred and thirty-eight schools have closed as of June 2008, and 58% of the schools that were closed, out of the number I just cited, were in Kandahar, where we are. As well, 147 students and children were killed.

First of all, have you read the report I'm referring to?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I'm aware of that report, yes.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I don't want to ask you about things you aren't aware of, but I'm wondering why this wasn't reflected in your report.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

We report progress in line with our six priority areas and the signature projects we've identified. At any given time, I would say there are dozens of reports out there dealing with progress or the lack of it. We try to take them into account. I think the main concerns you talked about are reflected in our report. There's the question of the number of schools that can be closed at any one time. It could be up to half the schools in Kandahar. It's a matter of the glass being half full or half empty. If you're talking about half the schools being closed, I share that concern. I'm also pleased to say that half those schools are open. I am pleased to say that there is an increase in the number of people going to school, especially girls. Is it anywhere near where we'd like it to be? No, but we've put in benchmarks for attendance rates. Some of those benchmarks have been achieved and some haven't, and that's the reason for our transparent reporting process.

You raised a number of important issues that point out the challenges remaining in Afghanistan. But we also need to show that gains are being made. There are a lot of things happening in Afghanistan that aren't germane to the mandate in our report. Monsieur Bachand talked about what's going on in Swat Valley, for instance, with the increase in activity and determination in Pakistan. A lot of that happened on or after March 31, so we wouldn't be commenting on it.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Fair enough, but I'm not referring to that.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

What I'm hearing from you is concern about other reports out there. This is something we'll try to address.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I want to see these things in the reporting here. You said it was a question of half empty or half full. I'm hearing from the government that the glass is full, but I think it's leaking.

There's another report by the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission about how police and law enforcement officials are training and behaving. We are training them, but the behaviour of the law enforcement officials on the ground would be shocking to most people. We fund the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission. We found in the report that torture was being used by law enforcement officials throughout Afghanistan. The report written by the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission shows that 20% of law enforcement officials aren't aware that it's against the law to torture prisoners.

I was shocked that members of the task force hadn't read the report. It seems to me that if we're going to be training police, we should be training them to use methods we support, methods that are not going to cause a further chasm between the people and the law enforcement officials. I'd like to know if you've been briefed on that report. It was available on the web. It's not just another report. It's a very important one. It's about how we train police and what they're doing. Do you believe it's important for our task force membership to read reports like this and embed them in the training we're providing for law enforcement officials?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

You said we were reporting that the glass was full. We're not reporting that anywhere. As a matter of fact, the transparency of these reports has been noted at NATO and the United Nations. They say it's a very transparent report. We haven't yet fulfilled a single one of those categories. We are using all the data we have in the most accurate and transparent way possible to show where we are relative to hitting those benchmarks. We are very concerned about the distance the people of Afghanistan still have to go. I want to clarify that nowhere do we say we've achieved 100%. We are simply reporting what we actually have achieved.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Nowhere in the report do we see the numbers I've mentioned.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

You have one report there, and I think—

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

It's your report, not mine; it's DFAIT's. The other one is the human rights tribunal--

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Paul, I was very considerate when you were talking--

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Fair enough.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

--so I would like to make these comments here.

There are large numbers of reports that are out there. We're trying to reflect, within the confines of our own reporting, as accurately as possible, what we've achieved.

On the officers we have trained, are they all 100% perfectly acting within what we would expect from police officers? I would say no. I don't know of a jurisdiction in the world where that would be the case. Is there a distance to go? Yes, there is. Do we condone, support, or sweep under the carpet any possible instances of torture? Absolutely not--

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

But what I'm saying is that--

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Just let me finish, Paul.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

If you haven't read the reports, Minister, how would you know if you--

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Mr. Dewar, the minister is speaking.

Go ahead, Mr. Minister.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I visited the prison itself in Kandahar. I visited Sarposa Prison, talked with prisoners, saw what was set up there, and listened to police officers. We talked with our own training officers, who get to work with these people every day, and with our military, who get to see what is going on.

You will remember that about two years ago a number of reports were issued that suggested that the Canadian military might be, if not involved, at least implicated in areas of possible torture, or turning an eye to that. I know you didn't endorse that, but reports came out to that effect, and the Minister of National Defence, just two days ago, showed the extensiveness of investigations that we do when we hear these allegations--

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Yes, but I'm talking about something different--

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

--and completely exonerating the Canadian military. I'm just letting you know, Paul, that we use that same investigative process if we even hear of an incident of possible torture. We want to know if it's happening, we want to investigate, and we're very strong on this.

Could some ANPs still be involved in torture? It's possible, and I'll tell you what, if we hear about it, we go after it very aggressively.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

But I'm talking about how they're trained, Minister.

I have two questions. First, have you read the report of the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission on what is happening on the ground with law enforcement officials and on the use of torture? That was my first question--if you've read that. Second, what are we doing about that in training officials?

It's really important. If less than 20% know that it's against the law to use torture, I think that's an issue in their training. We need to make sure they're being trained. So have you read the report and are we changing the way we're training to be reflecting that?