Afghanistan Committee on Nov. 24th, 2010

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

If you could provide it to the committee when it's available....

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay.

We'll now go to five-minute rounds, with Mr. Dechert.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Bossenmaier and Admiral Davidson, through you, I want to thank you and the people you represent for the great work you and your colleagues are doing in Afghanistan. I had the privilege of visiting there with this committee last June, and we got a good overview of what Canada is doing in Afghanistan. I have never been prouder to be a Canadian than I was when I saw the work that our brave young men and women, on both the civilian and the military side, are doing to make Afghanistan more democratic and the world a safer place. I felt proud, and I feel a lot safer today knowing what I saw there with the progress that's being made to improve the stability of that region.

Ms. Bossenmaier and Ms. Ducros, you mentioned Canada's project to support women seeking election to government. I learned while I was there that the proportion of women in Parliament, as of the last parliamentary election, was 27%, which compares pretty favourably with Canada. Fifty per cent would be better, but we'll get there. Could you describe for us, in greater detail, exactly what the project is and how you support women seeking elected office in Afghanistan? Could you tell us the results of the elections that were announced today?

[Greta Bossenmaier]

Before Ms. Ducros answers, I would like to thank the you for your comments about the visit. I had the opportunity to be in Afghanistan a few weeks ago and I must say that folks are still talking about your visit: how much they enjoyed seeing you, and how much they were moved by your words of appreciation. On behalf of our colleagues in the field, I want to thank you again.

[Françoise Ducros]

Yes. Thank you very much for that question.

We did multiple projects. UNDP elected an overall body that dealt with preparing the elections, so there were projects that included building the capacity of the IEC and providing things like women searchers, so that women would be able to go and vote, to access public awareness campaigns, and to access independent polling booths, so that women could vote on the institutional side for election day.

On the specific issue that you referenced with regard to training of candidates, there were a couple of projects. One of them was on training candidates on how to message, how to present, what to do in order to get elected, and who to target. That reached, as I said before, 70% of the candidates. I should say that it was also noted by Staffan de Mistura, a representative of UNAMA, who thanked Canada in writing for the contribution they made in order to provide access to the system for women, both in allowing them to vote and in providing training.

There were earlier projects in the workup to this election. They included things like providing them with the ability to work, should they be elected. There were various groups of projects, but they reached an overwhelming number of candidates through different mechanisms. There was also a public awareness campaign throughout the country. I'd be glad to provide the committee with the details of the breakdown as to what we did on that project.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Bossenmaier, you mentioned the training of the police. When we were in Afghanistan, we were told by a number of people how important it is that the people of Afghanistan have confidence in their justice system. They said that one of the best ways to get people to accept the elected government of Afghanistan is to have a credible and trustworthy justice system. Obviously, the police are a big part of that.

Could you contrast the situation of the Afghan police five years ago with what they are today? What needs to be done in the future, and how will Canada participate in that?

[Gordon Venner]

I'd add a couple of things. I might just add one comment to the end of Françoise's answer to your earlier question. Among the things we've done is that we've provided to the Afghan Minister of Justice a technical expert on legislative drafting, an expert on women's rights and Islamic law, so they can draw on that expertise in their own work.

With respect to training of the Afghan National Police, Canada currently has 50 police trainers in Afghanistan. I can give you a very specific list of the types of things they're currently doing there.

They provide first responder training to the Afghan National Police, who are the first responders to incidents involving improvised explosive devices, or IEDs. They provide training in searching and handcuffing. They provide training in searching buildings and vehicles. They provide training in establishing and maintaining vehicle checkpoints. They train people to do city and district police station surveys. They train police in vehicle repair. Also, substation and Afghan National Police headquarters improvements have been facilitated through them. They also provide first aid training.

I think your question deals also with some of the challenges that remain, and certainly there are many. One of them is attrition rates within the Afghan National Police. We're working with them to find ways to lower attrition rates. The work that's done, for example, to provide them with direct pay is a way of improving their satisfaction with their jobs.

We've also been helping improve police stations, because police officers tend to spend an awful lot of time in the stations. They're almost second homes, in some cases, so we try to improve their working environment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

Mr. Dion, please.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, I'd like to make sure that I correctly understood. Mr. Ducros, you said that the Dahla dam will be completely finished for 2011.

[Françoise Ducros]

The project that we began will be completed for 2011. It's a rehabilitation of the process that was in place and a rehabilitation of the waterways—

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

I don't understand. Is the dam ready or not?

[Françoise Ducros]

The $50 million project that we undertook with SNC-Lavalin was to rehabilitate the existing dam. And yes, it will be ready.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

So it will be completed and operational for 2011.

[Françoise Ducros]

Yes.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Thank you very much for that information.

Let's get to the bottom of things. I don't believe that anyone here questions the quality of the work that our military members and civilian personnel are doing with immense courage in Afghanistan. We don't doubt that a number of your programs are working well and achieving results. The question is whether we are dealing with a money pit. That's what's happening; that's where Canadians disagree.

For example, we're building schools. However, if the ambient culture there is hostile to the idea of girls going to school, even if we build them, what will happen to those schools later on? That's what Canadians are wondering.

You say we're teaching them to control crops and so on. The UN tells us that the cultivation of poppies has resumed with a vengeance. So what's the point for us in doing that if, in any case, most of their incomes go to drug-trafficking?

The same is true for everything we're teaching them about the operation of institutions, the legal system and so on. Everyone tells us that there's a culture of impunity, that we're still looking for the first human rights criminal to be prosecuted in Afghanistan. That's the issue.

So giving us a long list of all your programs can't give Canadians a sense of security.

My question will focus directly on training issues. If my information is correct,

We are spending--NATO is spending--$12 billion a year for training. That $12 billion means that it is more than the budget of the Government of Afghanistan. So if it were a matter of money, I guess it would be solved already.

There's a lot of concern that we are training people that don't stay very long. Some of them even go to the Taliban. Also, they don't really want to fight. After all, we are speaking about the people who have been able to win against the Soviet Union. If they were really willing to win against the Taliban, they would not need so much training.

We're talking about a country where young people are able to dismantle and reassemble a kalashnikov.

What is the current retention rate among the Afghan military members that we are training? How many Afghans do we have to train in order to have 10 who stay in combat?

[Jill Sinclair, Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have an attrition rate for the Afghan National Army of 1.6% monthly, and for the Afghan National Police, 1.2% monthly. Clearly, the issues of attrition and retention both have to do with the broader governance challenges in Afghanistan. There's no question that it's costly and takes time. That's why we're reinvesting in the training mission.

But there have been some improvements on the literacy front. This is a massive challenge, there's no doubt about it, but the impact this is having on the Afghan National Army and the Afghan National Police is showing in terms of the effectiveness. They were key in helping support the recent elections, for example, so they are beginning to have an impact.

[Stéphane Dion, Liberal, Saint-Laurent—Cartierville, QC]

Admiral Davidson, how come these people who have been able to win against the Soviet Union need to have training to win against the Taliban? Is the motivation as strong as it was against the Soviet Union? Isn't it true when a lot of testimony of our own soldiers on the ground...? I went there. They're telling us. They don't trust a lot of these Afghan people. They think some of them may be Taliban that have infiltrated the Afghan army; they prefer to be on the ground alone than with them. Under these circumstances, your assessment as a professional is what...?

[RAdm Robert Davidson]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Sadly, there have been some examples of trained personnel who have been insurgents and who have infiltrated, but those are a very few and isolated cases and ought not to be the basis on which we judge what we're trying to achieve with the training.

I understand your question. Being that they fought the Soviets and won, why do we need to train them? What occurred then and what we are essentially fighting is a counter-insurgency. It's a very small percentage of the population is doing the fighting. They're doing the fighting using mechanisms such as IEDs and ambushes and those kinds of things.

What we're trying to do in terms of building a capacity and an institution in Afghanistan is to build a professional armed force that has the capacity to control its own country in the long term and also the capacity to generate its own forces. In other words, we need to train them to the level where they can train themselves. We need to give them skill sets in areas like counter-IED. Today, that's a very complex skill, so it's very costly to teach it and to give them the equipment they need.

We need to give them skills in how to plan missions on a large scale. If you want to counter an insurgency, you have to put people on the ground and you have to hold the ground. That means you have to be the guy who's standing there on a corner. You're not the insurgent. You're not fighting from behind the rock. You're standing out on the street corner providing security for people. That's a different skill set. It requires that they be able to operate in groups, mutually support each other, learn how to communicate, and learn how to call in air support. It requires that they learn to coordinate all the various elements of the force so they can achieve the effect. It's a very complex business.

You look at the Canadian Forces and the complexity of our own business. We're trying to produce a modern force, and you cannot produce a modern force with a lot of experience in a short period of time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

It's very frustrating for me. We're getting good information, yet I have to end the discussion.

Mr. Abbott, please.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you.

Ms. Ducros, because we're trying to look at the future, I'm interested in getting you to quickly recite so that we understand a thing like polio eradication...can you tell us what it was, the volume, and the number? Can you give us a history, where we are, and what we're looking at in the future?

The second part of these questions is this. We were very active in the Kandahar area. Are we going to completely wind down our humanitarian efforts in the Kandahar area and move just into Kabul?

Those are two questions. I have a third if we have time.

[Françoise Ducros]

If I may, Mr. Chair, I will take the second one first. We are winding down our projects and programming in the Kandahar area, that is true; we'll be working on a national program. That doesn't mean the reach that we will be attempting to get...it includes throughout the country, including Kandahar; the idea would be to build capacity with the national government, to provide necessary training to allow those departments to be able to reach down into the provinces. So it isn't that our reach in the provinces will be foregone.

On the issue of polio, there was a time--probably in the last week--when I could give you, chapter and verse, all the numbers. I can't do it off the top of my head now, but the narrative history is that Afghanistan was one of the four countries where polio continued to exist. There was a spike in cases in 2008 when we went in; we'll have the numbers there. We were on track to eradicate the cases completely. There are 12 or 13 a year and can all be traced back to the polio virus coming from Pakistan. Because there was an outbreak in Tajikistan recently, we believe the virus may be coming in from there.

What is essential in what we have achieved with regard to polio eradication is broad-based immunization of children. We are reaching up to 95% of the areas across the country, so if there are outbreaks of cases, it tends not to spread through the area: 7.2 million children across Afghanistan have been vaccinated against polio. Although eradication hasn't been achieved, we are just basically covering the country with vaccinations. It is particularly prevalent in the south because of the infection coming from Pakistan.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Will this be an ongoing effort?

[Françoise Ducros]

Yes. The minister has stated that we would continue to work to eradicate polio,.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Can you give us an overview of maternal, newborn, and child health? What does that mean? Help us understand what that means in the Afghan context.

[Françoise Ducros]

Speaking from memory, and depending on the year, I think Afghanistan has the second- or third-worst newborn mortality rate. It's a very prevalent issue. We have had some basis of programming, including working with obstetrics in the Mirwais hospital. Since the government's announcement of the $1.1 billion on the G-8 initiative, the minister announced her countries of focus and included Afghanistan. MNCH was not a principal area of focus prior to that announcement in Afghanistan; we did other health initiatives and there was some of it.

There are multiple issues there, including access to hospitals, the ability to get to clinics, the care that's provided, and the training of midwives. We are currently developing that programming. But the issue in Afghanistan is that it has the second- or third-worst rate, year over year, of child mortality, and we'll address it through institutional capacity building, access to systems, and nutrition, which is the principal issue.